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I think Ryu makes sense here. I agree with him.
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Simple Dragon Ball Question
- Thread starter Ryukama
- Start date
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"Also why is what Zamasu is doing powerscalable AP when he's Low 2-C but suddenly hax no one can scale to when he's 2-C?"
That is a good question, there would no reason for Zamasu not to scale to anyone else when he's low 2-C.
That is a good question, there would no reason for Zamasu not to scale to anyone else when he's low 2-C.
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I agree with Ryukama, the only reason for Zeno's power not to exceed past 1 or 2 timelines is because he neither wanted to or needed to; same reason Goku and Beerus shaking the universe didn't destroy Universe 7.
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I'm not being hostile, it's just that it's hard to argue when you say basically the same thing. And I just feel the need to point out the logical inconsistencies and fallacies in your speech. Because you are ignoring feats in favor of the highest possible interpretation.
"Yes it's been agreed before we can use the manga as long as the anime doesn't directly contradict it."
And in this case it does as the dialogue is difference. Very simple. Also how do we know Whis is 100% reliable like an omniscient narrator to take his word literally? He's a very quirky guy with a very flamboyant way of speech.
"The original creator has say over his own work and what goes into it. Even if he has forgotton certain things. And proof that he forgot SSJ3?"
He said he forgot either SSJ2 or SSJ3 on an interview years ago. Also this goes 100% against our standards of Death of the Author. We consider WoG meaningless if it contradicts the actual work.
What? No. Zeno as we know so far is the supreme god of Dragon Ball."
He isn't, he's just the strongest character. This is a blatant exaggeration of his significance. He's a really powerful immortal kid. There's one of him in every timeline, he's not supreme, he's not unkillable, he's not the best at everything.
"If Zamasu can affect multiple timelines or have eventually been able to destroy multiple timelines, then Zeno can too."
Again, no. This is a leap in logic that ignores everything about how Zamasu does it, ignores Zeno's feats, and ignores that Zamasu was constantly growing in power.
"Also why is what Zamasu is doing powerscalable AP when he's Low 2-C but suddenly hax no one can scale to when he's 2-C?"
Because we have legit comparison of the power of Low 2-C Zamasu with other characters. The 2-C Zamasu you want to use? He doesn't exist.
"Yes it's been agreed before we can use the manga as long as the anime doesn't directly contradict it."
And in this case it does as the dialogue is difference. Very simple. Also how do we know Whis is 100% reliable like an omniscient narrator to take his word literally? He's a very quirky guy with a very flamboyant way of speech.
"The original creator has say over his own work and what goes into it. Even if he has forgotton certain things. And proof that he forgot SSJ3?"
He said he forgot either SSJ2 or SSJ3 on an interview years ago. Also this goes 100% against our standards of Death of the Author. We consider WoG meaningless if it contradicts the actual work.
What? No. Zeno as we know so far is the supreme god of Dragon Ball."
He isn't, he's just the strongest character. This is a blatant exaggeration of his significance. He's a really powerful immortal kid. There's one of him in every timeline, he's not supreme, he's not unkillable, he's not the best at everything.
"If Zamasu can affect multiple timelines or have eventually been able to destroy multiple timelines, then Zeno can too."
Again, no. This is a leap in logic that ignores everything about how Zamasu does it, ignores Zeno's feats, and ignores that Zamasu was constantly growing in power.
"Also why is what Zamasu is doing powerscalable AP when he's Low 2-C but suddenly hax no one can scale to when he's 2-C?"
Because we have legit comparison of the power of Low 2-C Zamasu with other characters. The 2-C Zamasu you want to use? He doesn't exist.
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All Toriyama does is provide outlines, he doesn't go into the finer details. I don't think he was SPECIFICALLY intending for that statement to mean all timelines, and I do, respectfully, think that there's too much assumption to go along with a higher rating when you can directly make arguments against it via what happened with FT's timeline's contents getting erased.
"All of reality," is the same as a character claiming they're omnipotent. If their feats show there's a limitation to their power, and in this case, other Zen'os, then it comes into question what they mean and the validity of Whis' statements can also be empirically argued against.
And it's the same as everything before. We shouldn't assume Zen'o has these hax unless he's been shown to. For instance, Toppo may be vastly stronger than Hit, but has no indication of having time hax. The same applies here.
"All of reality," is the same as a character claiming they're omnipotent. If their feats show there's a limitation to their power, and in this case, other Zen'os, then it comes into question what they mean and the validity of Whis' statements can also be empirically argued against.
And it's the same as everything before. We shouldn't assume Zen'o has these hax unless he's been shown to. For instance, Toppo may be vastly stronger than Hit, but has no indication of having time hax. The same applies here.
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So, judging from your snark and lack of direct citation of a statement, I am going to say that is a yes to my question...?
But, not only is that an inference like Ryu's but it's a non-sequitur. Isn't Infinite Zamasu a 4th dimensional entity that merged or transcended time or something? I wouldn't call being beyond or a part of time— being 4D and having your increasing existence go to other timelines "Time Travel"— more like transcending time or so and having your existence leak into other timelines or something. Either way, Zanmasu and Black being 3D and using Time Rings to travel and manipulate Time isn't exactly the same as being 4D.
So, Ryu isn't wrong for using an assumption for a vague conclusion on principle, as that is what you did— unless you clarify and/or prove me wrong...?
Also, no one replied about the "possibly". It's strange how much evidence you need to get for a vague rating, ain't it...?
But, not only is that an inference like Ryu's but it's a non-sequitur. Isn't Infinite Zamasu a 4th dimensional entity that merged or transcended time or something? I wouldn't call being beyond or a part of time— being 4D and having your increasing existence go to other timelines "Time Travel"— more like transcending time or so and having your existence leak into other timelines or something. Either way, Zanmasu and Black being 3D and using Time Rings to travel and manipulate Time isn't exactly the same as being 4D.
So, Ryu isn't wrong for using an assumption for a vague conclusion on principle, as that is what you did— unless you clarify and/or prove me wrong...?
Also, no one replied about the "possibly". It's strange how much evidence you need to get for a vague rating, ain't it...?
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1. Yes it is. The way Zamasu spread to the main universe is the same way he would've spread to other timelines. It's the exact same method. If Zamasu's powers that he used to become Low 2-C can be powerscaled to others, so can the powers he used eventually become 2-C.
No they can't. You are wanting to powerscale a Zamasu that never exists, and never comes to be, and we have no way of knowing how he compares to anyone.
2. I know. My point is if Zamasu's power is able to span multiple timelines so can Zeno's.
But he has no feats or evidence of doing it, and actual counterevidence with Future Zeno not even destroying one timeline when firing his full power.
3."Omnipotent god who can destroy countless timelines". How much bigger of a strawman can you make? When did I ever say anything like this? At most I played Devil's Advocate for Zeno being able to destroy a finite amount of alternate timelines instead of one. And at numerous times admitted that he has characters equal to him (the other Zenos).
I say this because this is what it appears like when you suggest, or play Devil's Advocate to, a 2-B Zeno. He has no statements or being able to destroy all the timelines, only one statement about him being able to destroy the entire world, referring to the multiverse, which can be assumed to be multiple timelines to a leap in logic. Also you later refer to Zeno as a "Supreme God", and he isn't. He doesn't qualify as such.
4. What reason is there to assume that Zamasu would've surpassed Zeno when nothing states he would've and we know Zeno's position as the highest deity in the series?
I said that we don't know. We can't powerscale a character that doesn't exist.
No they can't. You are wanting to powerscale a Zamasu that never exists, and never comes to be, and we have no way of knowing how he compares to anyone.
2. I know. My point is if Zamasu's power is able to span multiple timelines so can Zeno's.
But he has no feats or evidence of doing it, and actual counterevidence with Future Zeno not even destroying one timeline when firing his full power.
3."Omnipotent god who can destroy countless timelines". How much bigger of a strawman can you make? When did I ever say anything like this? At most I played Devil's Advocate for Zeno being able to destroy a finite amount of alternate timelines instead of one. And at numerous times admitted that he has characters equal to him (the other Zenos).
I say this because this is what it appears like when you suggest, or play Devil's Advocate to, a 2-B Zeno. He has no statements or being able to destroy all the timelines, only one statement about him being able to destroy the entire world, referring to the multiverse, which can be assumed to be multiple timelines to a leap in logic. Also you later refer to Zeno as a "Supreme God", and he isn't. He doesn't qualify as such.
4. What reason is there to assume that Zamasu would've surpassed Zeno when nothing states he would've and we know Zeno's position as the highest deity in the series?
I said that we don't know. We can't powerscale a character that doesn't exist.
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1. the dialogue is different but only different in a way that it says something that can be interpreted as what the manga says. Not in the way that it directly contradicted it.
2. Again citations for these claims against Toriyama? And how does the original creator not have valid say over their own work? I'm not saying any WoG statement he says is legit. But his input into something regarding his series matters especially for its canonicity.
3. He's the King of Everything and described as the god amongst gods which no one is above. Within the 12 universes he reigns supreme. Of course he's not someone like TOAA but his role is being the highest deity out there.
4 and 5. Again the way Zamasu becomes 2-C is the exact same way he becomes Low 2-C. Both of them can be powerscaled. And I know we'll always disagree on this but I think that it's a major assumption to say Zamasu would have ever become as powerful as Zeno. Zeno is most likely as strong as even Zamasu's hypothetical peak that never happened.
EDIT: New post again.
1. This isn't a matter of that Zamasu never existing. You explicitly said that Zamasu's powers as a 2-C are hax that others' AP can't scale to for some reason. I'm saying that if Low 2-C Zamasu's powers aren't unscalable hax, then neither would those hypothetical 2-C powers.
2. Zeno can erase Zamasu from both timelines. His power at least has the range to span multiple timelines. Again nothing suggests Zeno unleashed all his power against IZ.
3. I never said countless universes. At most I played Devil's Advocate for a large yet finite number. Zeno is the Supreme God of the 12 universes in each timeline he's in. Yeah he's not the Supreme God in the sense like TOAA that there's only one of him and all that. However amongst the god hierarchy he is the highest. Again when did I ever say he's omnipotent? All I can find are numerous times I explicitly said he wasn't.
4. I think the assumption that Zamasu would have never gotten stronger than Zeno is at least more reasonable than the assumption he would've.
2. Again citations for these claims against Toriyama? And how does the original creator not have valid say over their own work? I'm not saying any WoG statement he says is legit. But his input into something regarding his series matters especially for its canonicity.
3. He's the King of Everything and described as the god amongst gods which no one is above. Within the 12 universes he reigns supreme. Of course he's not someone like TOAA but his role is being the highest deity out there.
4 and 5. Again the way Zamasu becomes 2-C is the exact same way he becomes Low 2-C. Both of them can be powerscaled. And I know we'll always disagree on this but I think that it's a major assumption to say Zamasu would have ever become as powerful as Zeno. Zeno is most likely as strong as even Zamasu's hypothetical peak that never happened.
EDIT: New post again.
1. This isn't a matter of that Zamasu never existing. You explicitly said that Zamasu's powers as a 2-C are hax that others' AP can't scale to for some reason. I'm saying that if Low 2-C Zamasu's powers aren't unscalable hax, then neither would those hypothetical 2-C powers.
2. Zeno can erase Zamasu from both timelines. His power at least has the range to span multiple timelines. Again nothing suggests Zeno unleashed all his power against IZ.
3. I never said countless universes. At most I played Devil's Advocate for a large yet finite number. Zeno is the Supreme God of the 12 universes in each timeline he's in. Yeah he's not the Supreme God in the sense like TOAA that there's only one of him and all that. However amongst the god hierarchy he is the highest. Again when did I ever say he's omnipotent? All I can find are numerous times I explicitly said he wasn't.
4. I think the assumption that Zamasu would have never gotten stronger than Zeno is at least more reasonable than the assumption he would've.
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And, 2 more things that could possibly help Ryu...
I find the dialogue difference that Matt is pointing out as not significant enough to count as a difference. They're saying the same thing with different words, possibly going into more detail in the Manga...?
And Whis' word isn't exactly as bad as you're implying it to be... I don't know why you're saying Whis shouldn't be taken seriously for consideration. If anything, you should probably question Trunks' word over Whis, but I don't see you doing that... Eh.
I find the dialogue difference that Matt is pointing out as not significant enough to count as a difference. They're saying the same thing with different words, possibly going into more detail in the Manga...?
And Whis' word isn't exactly as bad as you're implying it to be... I don't know why you're saying Whis shouldn't be taken seriously for consideration. If anything, you should probably question Trunks' word over Whis, but I don't see you doing that... Eh.
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1. It is different, therefore we have to go with primary canon. In the manga translation it says "All of existence", which is a very bold statement that is quite NLF. No different than claiming he is omnipotent. To quote Carl Sagan:
Without first-hand proof, this statement is meaningless.
Meanwhile the statement that he can destroy the world, meaning multiverse as this is what it always means in this context, is provable as fact, and much less outlandish but instead congruent with the stuff Zeno has done.
2. I'd need to find that interview, also the interview where he admits he forgot Launch's existence. Because Death of the Author, quite simply. Here we bend the God to the work, not the work to the God. If an author says something and the work says another, we go with the work.
3. Only because of strength. He has no cosmological significance in the world of Dragon Ball. He is not the creator, nor responsible for the forces of nature and the universe, nor a true ruler of reality. God in Dragon Ball is literally just a job one gets at a certain level of strength. I agree he is at the top of the known hierarchy, but claiming he is a supreme god isn't very accurate .
4. Once again, no. That's a false-equivalency. Why can Low 2-C Zamasu be powerscaled?
| Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. |
Meanwhile the statement that he can destroy the world, meaning multiverse as this is what it always means in this context, is provable as fact, and much less outlandish but instead congruent with the stuff Zeno has done.
2. I'd need to find that interview, also the interview where he admits he forgot Launch's existence. Because Death of the Author, quite simply. Here we bend the God to the work, not the work to the God. If an author says something and the work says another, we go with the work.
3. Only because of strength. He has no cosmological significance in the world of Dragon Ball. He is not the creator, nor responsible for the forces of nature and the universe, nor a true ruler of reality. God in Dragon Ball is literally just a job one gets at a certain level of strength. I agree he is at the top of the known hierarchy, but claiming he is a supreme god isn't very accurate .
4. Once again, no. That's a false-equivalency. Why can Low 2-C Zamasu be powerscaled?
- Because we have statements of his power
- Because we know how characters react to his power
- Because he is beaten.
- Because it is hypothetical
- Because we have 0 statements on that level of power
- Because we don't see anyone react to it as it doesn't exist
- Because it is not beaten.
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Zeno got angry, said that the world should disappear, and killed Zamasu, and as a result everything is gone. It is his highest showing of power. Even if it's casual, it won't wield higher than 2-C because is is a low-end for 2-C. 12 universes is the best showing of Zeno's power. We can't even assume x10 that without feats. That's how it works.Amexim said:
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Also you realize that the statement comes from Whis who has a habit of exaggerating things and being melodramatic, right? He is campy and flamboyant in his manneirisms and spech. Saying that he can "Destroy absolutely all of existence" might be another exaggeration for all we know. Or he could simply be wrong, or misinformed, or overestimating Zeno.
It's not even a narrator or guidebook statement which comes from a 100% objective source. It is a character statement. We need evidence to back it up.
And "Zeno is the strongest character", "A weaker character could eventually become strong enough to affect two timeline", "So Zeno should scale from that character who never came to be and logically be able to affect all timelines" is a non-sequitur leap of logic.
It's not even a narrator or guidebook statement which comes from a 100% objective source. It is a character statement. We need evidence to back it up.
And "Zeno is the strongest character", "A weaker character could eventually become strong enough to affect two timeline", "So Zeno should scale from that character who never came to be and logically be able to affect all timelines" is a non-sequitur leap of logic.
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Y' all are wrong.
Universe 7 has it's limits, Earth is located on the EDGE of the Universe, and it has a center...there is no limits for something that is INFINITE.
Therefore no Universe in the DB multiverse is infinite, THEREFORE no one is Low 2-C.
Case closed. Downgrades please. Thank you and Goodbye.
Universe 7 has it's limits, Earth is located on the EDGE of the Universe, and it has a center...there is no limits for something that is INFINITE.
Therefore no Universe in the DB multiverse is infinite, THEREFORE no one is Low 2-C.
Case closed. Downgrades please. Thank you and Goodbye.
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@Kami if you read the title of the thread, you would find that is not the topic of the discussion. If you think there should be a downgrade, you should be making a different content revision thread for it.
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1. Different but again not in a way that contradicts it.
2. Extrordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? Then quit claiming these horrible things about Toriyama until you have proof. Again I'm not saying Death of the Author isn't a thing. I'm saying an original creator's input on a part of their series matters for its validity in canon.
3. There are gods in the series. Zeno is the highest ranked of all the gods. He is the supreme god. I'm sorry if you thought I was referring to the philosphical meaning people use to describe the Christian God. I meant in a case of supreme ruler. However Zeno is still the highest being. And I still have no idea how you got "Zeno is omnipotent" from me saying that.
4. Again you're changing your argument. You used to say that Zamasu being 2-C is because of overtime hax that can't be scaled to AP. Nothing to do with that Zamasu not existing. You claimed his powers just can't be powerscaled to others due to the nature of them. I said if the nature of his Low 2-C powers don't work this way, then neither would his hypothetical 2-C powers. Just as Jiren could be Low 2-C for being stronger than Low 2-C IZ even if he doesn't have all his hax, Zeno could hypothetically be stronger than 2-C IZ even if he doesn't have all his hax.
Yeah both are assumptions. But I think assuming that some form which appears for one episode, only warrants a slight unerve from Beerus and receives no real comment of praise or worth from Whis, and who is uncerimoniously one-shot and never talked about again likely would've have become stronger than the highest deity and strongest character in the series if he was just given a little extra time to power up. I don't see how it's much more absurd than me saying I don't believe a hypothetical Tien that was given a billion years to train would surpass Whis.
But fine I'll drop that. Zeno vs hypothetical Zamasu isn't even that relevant to the topic of my OP.
2. Extrordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? Then quit claiming these horrible things about Toriyama until you have proof. Again I'm not saying Death of the Author isn't a thing. I'm saying an original creator's input on a part of their series matters for its validity in canon.
3. There are gods in the series. Zeno is the highest ranked of all the gods. He is the supreme god. I'm sorry if you thought I was referring to the philosphical meaning people use to describe the Christian God. I meant in a case of supreme ruler. However Zeno is still the highest being. And I still have no idea how you got "Zeno is omnipotent" from me saying that.
4. Again you're changing your argument. You used to say that Zamasu being 2-C is because of overtime hax that can't be scaled to AP. Nothing to do with that Zamasu not existing. You claimed his powers just can't be powerscaled to others due to the nature of them. I said if the nature of his Low 2-C powers don't work this way, then neither would his hypothetical 2-C powers. Just as Jiren could be Low 2-C for being stronger than Low 2-C IZ even if he doesn't have all his hax, Zeno could hypothetically be stronger than 2-C IZ even if he doesn't have all his hax.
Yeah both are assumptions. But I think assuming that some form which appears for one episode, only warrants a slight unerve from Beerus and receives no real comment of praise or worth from Whis, and who is uncerimoniously one-shot and never talked about again likely would've have become stronger than the highest deity and strongest character in the series if he was just given a little extra time to power up. I don't see how it's much more absurd than me saying I don't believe a hypothetical Tien that was given a billion years to train would surpass Whis.
But fine I'll drop that. Zeno vs hypothetical Zamasu isn't even that relevant to the topic of my OP.
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Yasha, please. Daizenshu even states that it's infinite. And that's not even how you become a low 2-c is it?
And, how is that a non-sequitor? You still haven't shown scans proving without a doubt that IZ used Hax specifically to do what he did regarding timelines, nor proved that it was time travel exclusively. Honestly, Zen'o, Who should be superior to someone who likely did his timeline shenanigans through raw power on some Buu and Gotenks stuff, should be capable of doing the same—- unless you can provide evidence for IZ doing so purely through hax. In which case his low 2-c wouldn't even apply to Jiren, as the reason he is low 2-C is the same as what he would be as 2-C
And, how is that a non-sequitor? You still haven't shown scans proving without a doubt that IZ used Hax specifically to do what he did regarding timelines, nor proved that it was time travel exclusively. Honestly, Zen'o, Who should be superior to someone who likely did his timeline shenanigans through raw power on some Buu and Gotenks stuff, should be capable of doing the same—- unless you can provide evidence for IZ doing so purely through hax. In which case his low 2-c wouldn't even apply to Jiren, as the reason he is low 2-C is the same as what he would be as 2-C
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1. It is. One is "All of existence". Which can be interpreted as:
One of these is less outlandish. One of these is in primary canon. One of these align with what is shown. One of this is backed by proof.
2. Toriyama admiting that he forgot things and mistook Super Saiyan 3 for 2. Admits he totally forgot Launch. There is your evidence.
And in regards to creator input, if Toriyama says that Zeno can destroy all timelines (Citation needed, if you posted before sorry long thread and I'm tired), then that goes against the statement in the highest canon. And without evidence it means nothing. We don't accept authors who wank their characters (Godzilla). No different in this case assuming it is truth.
3. This topic is basically going nowhere. My main point is that describing Zeno as "Supreme" implies a lack of limits and an infallibility. He has neither. So I wouldn't recommend using it as it my lead people to accept a statement based on semantics.
4. I said this multiple times in previous posts actually. But the nature of his power is also a problem. I believe GP could totally destroy Zeno with Hax. Until we have proof of resistances, it is a valid argument.
>Stuff about IZ appearing in one episode
Once again, that is Low 2-C IZ, not the hypothetical 2-C IZ.
And I'm glad you're droppping it.
- All of the existence Whis (The speaker) resides in, i.e their timeline
- All of existence in general, including those with other Whises and Zenos
One of these is less outlandish. One of these is in primary canon. One of these align with what is shown. One of this is backed by proof.
2. Toriyama admiting that he forgot things and mistook Super Saiyan 3 for 2. Admits he totally forgot Launch. There is your evidence.
And in regards to creator input, if Toriyama says that Zeno can destroy all timelines (Citation needed, if you posted before sorry long thread and I'm tired), then that goes against the statement in the highest canon. And without evidence it means nothing. We don't accept authors who wank their characters (Godzilla). No different in this case assuming it is truth.
3. This topic is basically going nowhere. My main point is that describing Zeno as "Supreme" implies a lack of limits and an infallibility. He has neither. So I wouldn't recommend using it as it my lead people to accept a statement based on semantics.
4. I said this multiple times in previous posts actually. But the nature of his power is also a problem. I believe GP could totally destroy Zeno with Hax. Until we have proof of resistances, it is a valid argument.
>Stuff about IZ appearing in one episode
Once again, that is Low 2-C IZ, not the hypothetical 2-C IZ.
And I'm glad you're droppping it.
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@Amexim
"And, how is that a non-sequitor?"
That article also lists various examples.
Zeno being above hypothetical Zamasu follows three steps.
Thus it is invalid. This is, infact, an exact example of the Affirming the Consequent Fallacy.
But Ryu has agreed to stop this.
"You still haven't shown scans proving without a doubt that IZ used Hax specifically to do what he did regarding timelines, nor proved that it was time travel exclusively."
Look up Occam's Razor. Everytime he crossed timelines was via hax and time travel. So when he does it again what should we assume?
"And, how is that a non-sequitor?"
| A non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an invalid argument.[1] In a non sequitur, the conclusion is either true or false, but the argument nonetheless asserts the conclusion to be true and is thus fallacious. | ||
~ Wikipedia |
Zeno being above hypothetical Zamasu follows three steps.
- 1) Zeno is the strongest character
- 2) A weaker character could eventually become strong enough to affect two timeline
- 3) So Zeno should scale from that character who never came to be and logically be able to affect all timelines
Thus it is invalid. This is, infact, an exact example of the Affirming the Consequent Fallacy.
But Ryu has agreed to stop this.
"You still haven't shown scans proving without a doubt that IZ used Hax specifically to do what he did regarding timelines, nor proved that it was time travel exclusively."
Look up Occam's Razor. Everytime he crossed timelines was via hax and time travel. So when he does it again what should we assume?
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" if Toriyama says that Zeno can destroy all timelines (Citation needed, if you posted before sorry long thread and I'm tired), then that goes against the statement in the highest canon"
How does that go against anything? As far as we know Zeno is the strongest character in DBS. If Toriyama made a statement like that and nothing in the show contradicts it by showing that Zeno is actually weaker than that. Why shouldn't we use it?
How does that go against anything? As far as we know Zeno is the strongest character in DBS. If Toriyama made a statement like that and nothing in the show contradicts it by showing that Zeno is actually weaker than that. Why shouldn't we use it?
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1. All of Existence in general can mean the same as "world" in this case. That word does mean at least the rest of the 12 universes, but it's not a statement of limitation. It's open ended. Room for a possibly...
2. Cool. Toriyama is an old man who has an old series that has old characters that he has trouble remembering. Doesn't mean that IZ used hax and time travel specifically to affect other timelines or isn't what he is through raw power.
2. Cool. Toriyama is an old man who has an old series that has old characters that he has trouble remembering. Doesn't mean that IZ used hax and time travel specifically to affect other timelines or isn't what he is through raw power.
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- #185
1. "All of existence as we know it" when Whis is fully aware of there being multiple alternate timelines and this arc being centered entirely around travelling to alternate timelines is much more likely to be referring to alternate timelines than just one. And when have we ever only had an "all of existence statement" mean 1 timeline if the verse has proven to have multiple?
2. Thanks for the citations. Forgetful or not, an original creator's input on a story holds importance to if it is canon. Whether or not a WoG statement from him is valid is an entirely different subject.
3. https://gyazo.com/5a703656d222b2eba115f96174ea8d42
"(of authority or an office, or someone holding it) superior to all others." and "strongest, most important, or most powerful." are all easily accurate to Zeno's standing as a god. He's the highest ranking god superior to all other gods. He's the strongest, most important and most powerful god. It's not my fault you got me claiming Zeno's omnipotent out of that even when I must've literally said dozens of times now that he isn't.
4. If the "nature of his power" as Low 2-C can be powerscaled to people like Jiren, then his hypothetical 2-C powers could also be hypothetically scaled to Zeno. Whether or not you think Zeno does powerscale to that hypothetical Zamasu is different. But that hypothetical Zamasu's powers could be powerscaled like his Low 2-C self can be.
And why would an ultimately unimportant one off villain, kaioshin that got granted powers from a dragon vastly inferior to Zeno be able to become orders of magnitude stronger than the highest god and most powerful character in the series? Again both are assumptions, but I think mine is more reasonable for now.
2. Thanks for the citations. Forgetful or not, an original creator's input on a story holds importance to if it is canon. Whether or not a WoG statement from him is valid is an entirely different subject.
3. https://gyazo.com/5a703656d222b2eba115f96174ea8d42
"(of authority or an office, or someone holding it) superior to all others." and "strongest, most important, or most powerful." are all easily accurate to Zeno's standing as a god. He's the highest ranking god superior to all other gods. He's the strongest, most important and most powerful god. It's not my fault you got me claiming Zeno's omnipotent out of that even when I must've literally said dozens of times now that he isn't.
4. If the "nature of his power" as Low 2-C can be powerscaled to people like Jiren, then his hypothetical 2-C powers could also be hypothetically scaled to Zeno. Whether or not you think Zeno does powerscale to that hypothetical Zamasu is different. But that hypothetical Zamasu's powers could be powerscaled like his Low 2-C self can be.
And why would an ultimately unimportant one off villain, kaioshin that got granted powers from a dragon vastly inferior to Zeno be able to become orders of magnitude stronger than the highest god and most powerful character in the series? Again both are assumptions, but I think mine is more reasonable for now.
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1. Because we lack evidence that he can actually do it via feats, and the higher the Tier the more evidence.Thebluedash said:
2. Because 2-B amounts of timelines based on Trunks' statement may or may not be valid given the time rings.
3. Because we don't accept author statements which state capabilities above anything else in the series (See Godzilla. God creating the universe doesn't contradict anything and can even make sense, but it isn't accepted as comic never even begins to imply it.
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But now you're doing two different positions— you say we cannot assume anything surrounding IZ being 2-C and Zen'o being possibly superior to that possible state of power by saying that he didn't affect other timelines with raw power— the thing that would make Zen'o and IZ powerscalable, just like everyone stronger than Buu can use Vice shout based on raw power. And then, instead of providing proof of Time travel or hax being the reason why he is IZ, you claim Occam's razor.
That's confusing... In one half of your argument, you're against assumptions without evidence. Then in the other half, you're making an assumption claiming it's the most rational one without any justification given, and all available information I have in my mind suggests that your razor isn't the sharpest and cleanest to cut by.
Edit: what I meant in the first paragraph was that you say Zen'o hasn't shown evidence of X, and say that because of this lack of evidence we can't go by anything, and then you say that it's rational to make an assumption about the time travel thing, without posting any evidence...
That's confusing... In one half of your argument, you're against assumptions without evidence. Then in the other half, you're making an assumption claiming it's the most rational one without any justification given, and all available information I have in my mind suggests that your razor isn't the sharpest and cleanest to cut by.
Edit: what I meant in the first paragraph was that you say Zen'o hasn't shown evidence of X, and say that because of this lack of evidence we can't go by anything, and then you say that it's rational to make an assumption about the time travel thing, without posting any evidence...
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@Ryu
1. "All of existence" statements can literally mean Low 2-C in Verses with infinite higher dimensions depending on the character and context. Or else every character with statements like those in Marvel and DC Comics would be High 1-B
2. Agreed, but if he asserts a power to a character beyond anything shown, we won't accept it. Same is true of the contrary (Remember that writer saying Goku can't universe-bust?).
3. Going to drop the supreme argument and move to the fourth, addressing it as third from now on:
Again, that is a false equivalency. We can powerscale Low 2-C Zeno to Jiren because, as we are all sick and tired of stating to doubters, it is made abundantly clear that he is the strongest opponent the U7 has ever faced, and gets multiple hype statements of being GoD level. Meanwhile Future Zamasu 2-C never came to be so we don't know who'd even scale.
Also it is very annoying to call Zamasu a one-off villain when he's the main baddie of a very long and serious plot and character-driven arc.
1. "All of existence" statements can literally mean Low 2-C in Verses with infinite higher dimensions depending on the character and context. Or else every character with statements like those in Marvel and DC Comics would be High 1-B
2. Agreed, but if he asserts a power to a character beyond anything shown, we won't accept it. Same is true of the contrary (Remember that writer saying Goku can't universe-bust?).
3. Going to drop the supreme argument and move to the fourth, addressing it as third from now on:
Again, that is a false equivalency. We can powerscale Low 2-C Zeno to Jiren because, as we are all sick and tired of stating to doubters, it is made abundantly clear that he is the strongest opponent the U7 has ever faced, and gets multiple hype statements of being GoD level. Meanwhile Future Zamasu 2-C never came to be so we don't know who'd even scale.
Also it is very annoying to call Zamasu a one-off villain when he's the main baddie of a very long and serious plot and character-driven arc.
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@Amexim
This is literally the concepts of Burden of Proof and Occam's Razor. You have to prove a positive, and the more extraordinary the positive, the more proof.
With Occam's Razor, in lack of proof, you make the logical assumption of going with the simplest possible explanation. In VsDebating case, the lowest and most sensible possibility of a feat.
This is literally the concepts of Burden of Proof and Occam's Razor. You have to prove a positive, and the more extraordinary the positive, the more proof.
With Occam's Razor, in lack of proof, you make the logical assumption of going with the simplest possible explanation. In VsDebating case, the lowest and most sensible possibility of a feat.
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- Thread starter
- #190
1. False equivalencey. Dragon Ball does not at all have infinite higher dimensions. But contextually, "all of existence as we know it" from a character entirely aware of alternate timelines, in an arc entirely centered around travelling to alternate timelines would likely be referring to them.
2. Another false equivalencey. Zeno doesn't have multiple statements or showings that directly contradict his in series statement like Goku does that WoG statement. Plus that writer eventually conceded that Goku probably could when one of Seth's fans kept posting him with evidence lol
3. Again I'm addressing your previous arguments that 2-C Zamasu has unscalable hax powers.
"Scaling Zeno to something someone was doing over time and with hax is wrong."
"NO, my god. Stop equating overtime hax that does not scale to Zamasu as he currently is to Zeno."
"Because Zamasu can only do it through hax that nobody else can copy,"
^ You used to insist 2-C Zamasu's has hax powers that by nature can't be scaled to anyone. My point was that Low 2-C Zamasu has the exact same nature of power as 2-C Zamasu and it can be scaled to others. Whether or not there's proof of people scaling to 2-C Zamasu is irrelevant to that point.
I meant to type one off form (quoting you) not villain. My mistake.
2. Another false equivalencey. Zeno doesn't have multiple statements or showings that directly contradict his in series statement like Goku does that WoG statement. Plus that writer eventually conceded that Goku probably could when one of Seth's fans kept posting him with evidence lol
3. Again I'm addressing your previous arguments that 2-C Zamasu has unscalable hax powers.
"Scaling Zeno to something someone was doing over time and with hax is wrong."
"NO, my god. Stop equating overtime hax that does not scale to Zamasu as he currently is to Zeno."
"Because Zamasu can only do it through hax that nobody else can copy,"
^ You used to insist 2-C Zamasu's has hax powers that by nature can't be scaled to anyone. My point was that Low 2-C Zamasu has the exact same nature of power as 2-C Zamasu and it can be scaled to others. Whether or not there's proof of people scaling to 2-C Zamasu is irrelevant to that point.
I meant to type one off form (quoting you) not villain. My mistake.
Heavens_Feel
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Hmm, i feel like Ryu has gathered enough knowledge on this series; not only do his arguments seem reasonable, but the way he goes into explaining it - I completely agree.
I also feel like Zeno is being completely downplayed here, Y'know.
Zeno has been stated to be the strongest character in verse, to suggest he's incapable of complete and utter destruction, would be dismissing the authors words in itself.
I also feel like Zeno is being completely downplayed here, Y'know.
Zeno has been stated to be the strongest character in verse, to suggest he's incapable of complete and utter destruction, would be dismissing the authors words in itself.
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1. You asked for how "All of existence" could mean anything but the total verse, I proved it. Not that it matters since Whis only says that in the manga which we don't use. At all. The profiles are 100% anime only.
2. You need to prove a positive, Ryu. That's how evidence in law and rethoric works. You have to prove Zeno can destroy 2-B amount of universes, rather than me proving he can't. So far Zeno has 0 proof of 2-B beyond:
2. You need to prove a positive, Ryu. That's how evidence in law and rethoric works. You have to prove Zeno can destroy 2-B amount of universes, rather than me proving he can't. So far Zeno has 0 proof of 2-B beyond:
- English Dub which isn't valid
- WoG answer (Sauce yet?) that is an over-estimation of the character. You seem to have ignored the Godzilla comparison.
- Manga which isn't valid
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I agree with Ryu, basically.
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The statements are based on sources that we don't even use. How this has lasted 191 posts despite that is bizarre.
Zeno's best feat is 2-C. Ergo, he is 2-C. This is how it works.
Zeno's best feat is 2-C. Ergo, he is 2-C. This is how it works.
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You're acting like we haven't accepted statements before. Zeno is the strongest chaarcter in the verse and if the author says he can do something AND the character has not shown to be inferior to anyone else, I don't see any reason not to accept it. Isn't that why chars such as Saitama are planet level? From statements?Aeyu said:
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Also in regards to the "If Zeno can't scale to nonexistent hypothetical 2-C Zamasu then Jiren can't scale to the real Low 2-C Zamasu who is weaker than people weaker than him"...
We are literally told that Jiren's power is higher than that of any other threat.
"He is strong, plain and simple."
- Shi
We are literally told that Jiren's power is higher than that of any other threat.
"He is strong, plain and simple."
- Shi
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I think Ryukama makes sense here.
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@Dash
Statements which aren't accepted for Zeno =/= Accepted statements. In this case the author is simply wrong. You need to prove a positive. This is how debating works.
So far 0 proof.
Also Saitama is Planet level for accepting the anime, guidebooks, interviews, and Saitama's own words. Also it isn't near of a leap.
Statements which aren't accepted for Zeno =/= Accepted statements. In this case the author is simply wrong. You need to prove a positive. This is how debating works.
So far 0 proof.
Also Saitama is Planet level for accepting the anime, guidebooks, interviews, and Saitama's own words. Also it isn't near of a leap.
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