Simple Dragon Ball Question

[Ryukama]

1. I'm talking in regards to verses with multiple timelines, which we've always treated someone who can destroy all of existence in a verse with multiple timelines as busting those timelines. And again given the context of the statement it is more likely

I have gone over this so many times with the other staff. They have told me that the manga is secondary canon which can be used if not outright contradicted by the manga.

2. I never said "Zeno is 2-B cause nothing proves that he isn't". I'm saying that a WoG statement of Zeno being 2-B isn't the same as a WoG statement that Goku can't universe bust cause one of them has been directly disproven and the other wouldn't have been.

Already said multiple times the English dub isn't valid.

Not that I ever claimed there's a WoG of 2-B Zeno. Not sure where that isn't coming from.

Manga is valid unless directly contradicted.

3. I never said Zeno should have every hax every other character has. That he should be more powerful than every other character. And that in most likelihood a one off form of a kaioshin with powers granted by a dragon vastly inferior to Zeno wouldn't have become orders of magnitude stronger than the highest god and most powerful character in the series with a little extra time to grow.

 

[Aeyu]

@Blue

The author hasn't explicitly stated this, though.

His feats directly contradict what's been shown. Saitama isn't really equatable to this.

 

[Amexim]

I'm well aware of this, so maybe I am not explaining properly.

You're claiming: IZ would become 2-C with Hax.

Ryu: IZ is 2-C for the same reason that he is Low 2-C.

So if IZ would be 2-C with Hax, he would only be low 2-C with hax, and Jiren wouldn't scale, because being superior to him means nothing in terms of POWER.

The issue is: IZ is low 2-C and 2-C, affecting timelines etc, by raw power. This is, at least, the assumption we've been operating under. Zen'o is superior in Power. And, therefore, he should be, at least capable of affecting multiple timelines and/or replicating what IZ did in some way, as it was done by raw power— like Buu did with the HTC. So it's not exactly irrational to assume it. And the hypothetical "possibly" IZ should be weaker than a "possibly" Zen'o. So, what, does "possibly" not exist as a part of ratings anymore? I'm confused.

You claim: IZ used time travel and hax to do what he did.

You provided no scans of that, and I have asked for them repeatedly.

See what I mean? On one hand, you stand against making inferences without proper— even concrete evidence. On the other, you make one without showing any concrete evidence on your own, and claim Occam's razor— that your solution is the safest assumption to make.

This is a bit hypocritical, don't you see? I mean, we're not claiming Zen'o is factually 2-C, or even 2-B, but he could be if IZ did what he did using Raw power, and Whis and Trunks' statements could be taken seriously. Possibly is supposed to be used for vague stats that are defined enough to know where or what they could be but not enough to know if they should be, right?

 

[AllanSaiyan]

"Manga which we don't use" they are both canon but in the Manga Toriyama actual give more input than the anime. Plus Whis statement doesnt contradict anything. I agree with Ryu reasoning also.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Allan. We don't use the manga because it is non-canon to the anime, which are what are profiles are exclusively based on.

Whis' statement contradicts everything. He is talking about 12 universes only in the anime. How many times must that be said?

 

[Thebluedash]

@Blue
The author hasn't explicitly stated this, though.

His feats directly contradict what's been shown. Saitama isn't really equatable to this

Your argument is that Zeno has not destroyed etc etc, so the statement can't be proven. This is exactly the same as Saitama who has never busted a planet. If you're going to accept that I don't see why we shouldn't accept this.

 

[Ryukama]

What Whis meant by "world" is up to interpretation. Just because world may have been used to refer to a timeline other times doesn't mean that's what he meant in that particular instance. Especially when again the secondary canon manga with more input from Toriyama uses the other interpretation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"I'm talking in regards to verses with multiple timelines, which we've always treated someone who can destroy all of existence in a verse with multiple timelines as busting those timelines. And again given the context of the statement it is more likely"

A statement that doesn't exist in the canon which we use.

"I have gone over this so many times with the other staff. The manag is secondary canon which can be used if not outright contradicted by the manga."

But nothing of our profiles use the manga. And it is contradicted in this case. You can't pick and choose when to use the manga to suit you.

"2. I never said "Zeno is 2-B cause nothing proves that he isn't". I'm saying that a WoG statement of Zeno being 2-B isn't the same as a WoG statement that Goku can't universe bust cause one of them has been directly disproven and the other wouldn't have been."

They are the exact same thing. We don't accept wanking WoG and lowballing WoG.

"Not that I ever claimed there's a WoG of 2-B Zeno. Not sure where that isn't coming from."

The Toriyama WoG that at post 201 nobody has given me a link to.


"I never said Zeno should have every hax every other character has."

So you agree that he lacks the hax ability to affect other timelines?

"That he should be more powerful than every other character."

So you agree that he shouldn't be more powerful than people whose power we don't know and who never came to be?

"And that in most likelihood a one off form of a kaioshin with powers granted by a dragon vastly inferior to Zeno wouldn't have become orders of magnitude stronger than the highest god and most powerful character in the series with a little extra time to grow".

We never know. We need evidence not speculation in this case. The form never came to be and neither a chance to powerscale.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What Whis meant by "world" is up to interpretation. Just because world may have been used to refer to a timeline other times doesn't mean that's what he meant in that particular instance. Especially when again the secondary canon manga with more input from Toriyama uses the other interpretation.

Occam's Razor Ryu. It is said to be A multiple times so it likely means A there too. We don't use the manga.

 

[Amexim]

The issue with Jiren is that he's stronger than Zanmasu, but being more powerful in terms of raw strength doesn't make him low 2-C, unless the reason Zanmasu is low 2-C to possibly 2-C is because of Power. And if it's because of power, and not hax, then Zen'o should be superior, right? Being stronger than a 4-D entity in terms of raw power is confusing, because I (and I guess everyone here who knows about dimensional tiering) assume that IZ has 4-D existence to a point where he can treat us like we're drawings on paper— his infinite power is on a completely different level than infinite 3-D power. But, again, the reason he is 4-D is either because of hax or raw power. So either Jiren isn't 4-D because Zanmasu has some 4-D hax but not AP, or Zamasu is 4-D because of his AP. Right?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, wrong.

How can you people jump in logic so much? "X is stronger than base Y, so Z should be stronger than an upgraded Y we never see"?

I literally proved that this argument is a logicall fallacy. It is invalid.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

On the contrary. Zen'o is not being downplayed, every single argument that he's supposedly "proving," his ability to affect multiple timelines is laced with fallacy, NLF, and wank.
For the last time, feats > statements.

Worth pointing out that the Pro-Zeno side has had the fallacies, false equivalencies and NLFs pointed out repeatedly and yet the debate is still circular.

 

[Ryukama]

1. It was agreed long before I got here the manga can be used unless outright contradicted. A slightly different statement that can still be interpreted as what the manga said isn't an outright contradiction. Not anymore than "planet's surface" vs "planet" in OPM's canons.

2. Regardless of whether or not you think a WoG that is never outright disproven is the exact same thing as a retracted WoG that was outright disproven are the exact same things, I never said "Zeno is 2-B because nothing proves he isn't".

Me discussing a hypothetical is not me claiming the hypothetical exists. Name one instance on post 201 (or any post ever) where I say claim there's a 2-B WoG on Zeno.

3. Zamasu's abilities to affect or eventually bust multiple timelines are listed as AP though. Does Jiren not scale to Low 2-C because he "lacks the hax ability to become one with the universe"?

If it's far more reasonable to say Zeno would likely be more powerful than such hypothetical form, then yes. Again, both are assumptions, I find mine to be more reasonable. A Tien that has trained for a billion years is also a hypothetical that never actually happened. Is it too unreasonable that I'd say he wouldn't be stronger than Whis? Even if his power is hypothetical and we have no explicitly proof of scaling to others?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Minor request:

I am leaving to sleep now, I politely ask that this thread is not declared "Concluded" while I am away, as it would be a simple denial of counterargument.

If you look at the early thread plenty are against this, but they are likely not available now.

 

[Amexim]

In short:

Is IZ 4-D/Low 2-C and 2-C solely because of an application of Hax, and not because of Power?

Or is he that way because of Power? If Hax, please prove it. If power, then Zen'o and Jiren scale, and since all the crazy shit that happened was through power and not time travel from the Rings and hax like you claimed before without evidence, acknowledge that you're not consistent, and reevaluate what Ryu is saying— as he, like or hopefully not unlike you, is making an assumption on a POSSIBLE (not guaranteed, not concrete, but possibly) aspect of the verse using some form of information that he has already provided.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1. Except one if orders of magnitude larger, the DBS Manga is far more contradictory, and can the Manga quote even be posted? It's not on any profile. Regardless there is proof against 2-B Zeno which has been posted here many times.

2. I never said there is but I say the WoG is being used as proof where there is none. A WoG which has yet to be shown.

3. No because he has more power than that Zamasu who was doing that, by reliable statements. False equivalency.

As to the remaining speculation, it is a meaningless debate that adds nothing. I would rather we stop bringing these tangents.

 

[Amexim]

Oh, so your claim is that Zen'o isn't established clearly to be superior to hypothetical IZ at 2-C? That wasn't clear. I disagree on that, but we could... Try to debate that...? Or... Are you trying to claim that Zen'o from before IZ is 2-C to when he is 2-C is different, hence using Z where X applies. Because then you make it seem like we're talking about different people.

The correct way is this:

X is stronger than base Y and likely should always be stronger than Y under any circumstances. Therefore, X is stronger than Upgraded Y. This is what I am claiming.

You're claiming that this logic doesn't follow in this case because it isn't power that matters here. You're claiming Occam's razor for IZ using time travel, without a proper justification for why that is— the justification you listed is a false equivalency. 3D Zanmasu and Black using the time Rings isn't the same as incorporeal 4D Zanmasu doing 4D shenanigans. By not demonstating your ability to adhere to your own standards of judgement, you're kinda undermining your argument, not giving proper evidence for a claim while discounting one that is, at best your favor, just as shaky, though in actuality, it's more than just food for thought.

 

[Amexim]

Worth pointing out that the Pro-Zeno side has had the fallacies, false equivalencies and NLFs pointed out repeatedly and yet the debate is still circular.

Matt, you've been ignoring your own flawed argument. Please don't act like we're the only ones being irrational, if at all. And if you aren't, then please address my questions.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm actually going to drop this thread entirely for now until there is a further consensus. Just listing out my final points.

Major Points:

• 1. We've agreed that the manga is secondary canon and can be used if not outright contradicted. Whis's "world" statement which is up to multiple interpretations including what the manga said is not an outright contradiction.

• 2. "All of existence as we know it" is far more likely to be referring to alternate timelines when such a statement is made by someone entirely knowledgable of alternate timelines being in existence during an arc all about travelling to alternate timelines.

• 3. "One Zeno per timeline" and "Trunks and Mai didn't get erased" aren't valid points in my opinion. The time rings might be, but as I recall time rings are only for whenever time travel is done. Not one time ring per each timeline ever. I'm iffy on this one.

Feel free to disagree with me on this. It's whatever the conensus agrees on.

Irrelevant stuff not pertaining to the original topic of the thread:

• 1. I never made a claim that 2-B WoG exists. 2-B WoG is pointless to keep talking about since there is no 2-B WoG.

• 2. Zeno is more powerful than Infinite Zamasu. If Infinite Zamasu's power is powerful enough to spread or destroy multiple timelines so is Zeno's. The assumption that Infinite Zamasu wouldn't have ever surpassed Zeno is more reasonable than the assumption he would in my opinion.
• 3. Hypothetical 2-C Zamasu does not have unscalable hax powers that can never apply to anyone else's AP. Hypothetical 2-C Zamasu's powers are the same nature as Low 2-C Zamasu's, which scales to people like Jiren. Whether or not you think anyone scales to hypothetical 2-C Zamasu due to proof is irrelevant to that point.

Now people please stop making ridiculous accusations of me like I want a 2-A Zeno or think he's omnipotent and crap. These profiles say different things that if put together might lead to a Zeno upgrade. I'm simply asking why haven't we put those things together. If we don't believe in the things we said in these profiles, then we just revise them instead of a Zeno upgrade. I care more about consistency than upgrades. Playing Devil's Advocate though I don't see much going against what our current profiles have, but I am entirely open to those thinking otherwise.

I brought up the question. I made my points. I repeated them over and over again. Now it's up to the rest of the site to come to a decision. Everything I have to say and everything others have said about it is readily available. The other members can go make a consensus on how they think they should handle this apparent issue. And I am entirely fine with said consensus disagreeing with my opinions or devil's advocacy.

I'm done here. Unfollowing.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Well so far:

Pro-Zeno: 21 (Super Saiyan God Julia, Ryukama, The 2nd Existential Seed, Paleomario66, Warren Valio, Zenkaibattery1, Amexim, AllanSaiya, Zensum, DarkDragonMedeus, KinkiestSins, Unite My Rice, Knightofannihilation666, AllFictio, Mr. Common Sense, Reinhardthrowshisspear, Bluetrekking, Thebluedash, Heavens Feel, Yobobojojo, Meshifuari Arimota)

Anti-Zeno: 9 (Matthew Schroeder, Aeyu, The real cal howard, Dark649, LordAizenSama, TheHadouCyberspaceWitch, DMB 1, ProfessorKukui4Life, Sera Loveheart)

Neutral: 3 (Celestial Pegasus, DodoNova2, JustSomeWeirdo)


Both sides seem to have solid and valid arguments, so much so that it seems best to leave it to the community as a whole to decide which idea might be more accurate as Ryukama suggested.


If anyone wishes to be added or removed from this list, please let me know

 

[Dark649]

If this thread ends up making Canon Zen'o at an higher 2-C, it's fine to me but i will disagree if ends up making Canon Zen'o 2-B and Infinite Zamasu and all the Angels, Gods, etc. at 2-C. The others would fall at Low 2-C via backward scaling.

 

[DodoNova2]

I thought it was a simple question of Dragon Ball OvO

 

[Meshifuari_Arimota]

Well in the anime F.Zamasu was capable of affecting different timelines with his powers and appearing in them, changing them in negative way, (which Whis stated) which was also confirmed in DB Xenoverse ( I know it's not taken into consideration, however they kinda confirmed it.

If we go by the manga Zeno was capable of erasing entire timeline (due to the fact that ring was also erased after it)

So... I dunno, Zeno seems to be capable of erasing different timelines.and nothing from anime/manga/xenoverse/heroes contradicts it, they kinda supports it if anything.

 

[DodoNova2]

Zamasu can only affect several timelines under certain circumstances, I would do a post later.
Regarding zen'o, I do not know, I have no problem with him but I'll have to read the thread

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The pro Zeno side aside from Ryu has said literally 0 arguments and jus posted "I agree.".

If it was up for what DB fans want purely by numbers Goku would be 2-B and Zeno High 2-A already.

 

[Aeyu]

I, once again, agree with Matt on this, unfortunately.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I don't see anyone here talking about 2-B Canon Goku. And this is the first time I've heard High 2-A Canon Zeno.

Besides Amexim has also expressed his own arguments.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I still agree with Matt on this as well.

 

[Sera_EX]

Unfortunately, all this does is make characters far higher than they need to be. Because characters scale to Infinite Zamasu remember? I refuse to accept 2-B Zeno / 2-C Zamasu if it results in 2-C Angels and GoD, 2-C Jiren, 2-C Kelfa, 2-C Goku and Vegeta etc. They have no feats and nothing but shameless powerscaling.

 

[Aeyu]

It's not to upgrade other characters (although it probably would be used to), but to upgrade Zen'o, even though there's a total lack of feats, feats that sorta lend to contradicting said statements, and "ehh," statements that can be interpreted different ways than what are being interpreted here.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

This wouldn't scale to anyone

Also, I'm really just neutral on this, I forgot to specify that I agreed with Ryu on the "Can't be x powerful due to existing in multiple timelines" thing

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Sera Loveheart

Zamasu isn't getting upgraded. Neither are the GoD's, Angels, Jiren etc. Only Zeno.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I've heard of people suggest that the Grand Priest was High Multiversal+ based off of this video, and a discussion was once made to upgrade Ultra Instinct Goku to Outerversal. People here aren't talking about it, but I have seen High 2-A commonly elsewhere when talking about the World of Void. Matthew has a point. This isn't just a matter of voting. A lot of people also think canon Goku should be Multiversal based on both stuff said by Seth the Programmer and the notion that the battle between Goku and Beerus actually yielded a 2-C feat because it was going to affect the Afterlife, and that Goku is much more powerful than he was then. These are common arguments, and a lot of people agreeing with them doesn't make them correct.

 

[Aeyu]

I'm with Hadou 100% on this one.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I see. Fair point Hadou.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Regardless the list is how it is.

 

[Sera_EX]

Regardless, I still agree with Matt and especially Hadou.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I still agree with Ryu.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Later I'll answer to Ryu's final post.

 

[Amexim]

@Matt

I was here. Feel a bit discredited, even if I was echoing Ryu a bit.

As for shameless powerscaling, Sera, welcome to Dragon Ball, where characters are portrayed far weaker than they should be. I don't think bemoaning powerscaling is particularly a good argument, especially when the issue you're bringing up isn't even going to come about. If ANYONE is getting promoted to 2-B, it's Zen'o until further notice— and either way, it would only be a "possibly". We could give all those people superior to I Zanmasu a possibly as well, but... That's a bigger unknown, so I don't recommend it. We know for sure Zen'o should be superior to IZ no matter what. IZ could be beyond Jiren (pfft!).