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Simon the Digger

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Rune_Katashima

Rune_Katashima

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So I definitely watched TTGL but I'm guessing most people who edited Simon's page didn't.

TTGL never went above one universe so I don't know why anything is multi-versal. Simon's striking power shouldn't be above atheltic human. TTGL or STTGL have the impressive striking feat, not him.

Speed is debatable, saying he is able to perceive the movement of a large being is merely relative. Their speed relative to a human on Earth is disgustingly fast but relative to Galactic mechs is not. Simon is watching Anti-Spiral from his mech. A good way to visualize why the speed being relative is relevant is watch the scene where Anti-Spiral opens a portal to Earth to attack it. Look at how it moves. This is also how any Human would perceive it and why Simon is able to fight it despite being only Human. This doesn't make him Hypersonic or better and I recommend that the site as a whole recognizes things like this.

And I'm not trying to stir up shit. I know anyone can check my account and see I'm "new" though I've been doing similar discussions like this on Reddit and such. But I'm going to need more proof in this case.
 
Nah.


In the Movie, he fought and drilled a hole through the Anti-Spiral. It even justifies it that way on the profile itself..... Just as PineappleGuy already stole from me.
 
Oh, and as for Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, it absorbed the power of the Infinity Big Bang storm, which was confirmed to have the energy of the creation of the universe.
 
Pretty much this ^ he scales due to defeating the Anti-Spiral, who is 2-C.
 
Simon is on that level with and without his mecha variants. The Anti Spiral is physically 2-C and Simon defeated him on his own and also took blows from him without his mechs. Which means both his AP and durability is Multi Universal. His strikes were also able to harm the Anti Spiral so he's 2-C in that category as well.
 
He got out of Lagann when he was already close to anti-spiral. Are you serious right now? All of his mechs were used to make him get close.
 
Rune Katashima said:
He got out of Lagann when he was already close to anti-spiral. Are you serious right now? All of his mechs were used to make him get close.
Click to expand...
How is this important?
 
Rune Katashima said:
Why are you bringing up TTGL? I am talking about Simon.
Click to expand...
"TTGL never went above one universe so I don't know why anything is multi-versal."


That's why.


And the Anti-Spiral has the power to maintain the Anti-Spiral universe and the Mech itself. Just getting close to him only means that Simon was brawling the guy face to face, the Anti-Spiral would still be Multi-Universal.
 
Simon in the original series is still 2-C despite not fighting the anti-spiral 1v1 . it is his own spiral that allowed him to defeat anti-spiral whilst piloting lagann.

Simon in the movie is 2-C outright because he defeated the anti-spiral in a fist fight, the same antispiral that shredded lagann with his tentacles.

As for I speed I sort of agree on the human pilots not needing to have MFTL+ to keep track of the humongous mech's movements, however Anti-Spiral intercepted Lagann Mid-flight which makes him MFTL+ and Simon scales to it.
 
The Anti-Spiral itself is not multi-versal even if it has a power to create something multiversal in scale. It's the same argument applied to Galactus creating Silver Surfer. You can't apply feats to the creator from the feats of the created.

There is no evidence to support that Anti-Spiral itself can tank universal blows or deal them or is relativistic itself. It never took direct hits from TTGL, only Simon. It never moved relativistic either. It never punched TTGL in a way that damaged it without creating a mech that could. That was it's power.
 
"The Anti-Spiral itself is not multi-versal even if it has a power to create something multiversal in scale. It's the same argument applied to Galactus creating Silver Surfer. You can't apply feats to the creator from the feats of the created."

You... do know creation feats are a thing, right?

"There is no evidence to support that Anti-Spiral itself can tank universal blows or deal them or is relativistic itself. It never took direct hits from TTGL, only Simon. It never moved relativistic either. It never punched TTGL in a way that damaged it without creating a mech that could. That was it's power."

First, we have no reason to assume the Anti-Spiral is a glass cannon.

Second, the Anti-Spiral literally throws parts of its bodies thousands if not millions of light years away to try and destroy Lagann in the final stretch of the battle.

Third, the Anti-Spiral is perfectly capable of piloting the Granzeboma, a mech that's blatantly Massively FTL+ by its sheer size.
 
1. Read this

2. "Speed is debatable, saying he is able to perceive the movement of a large being is merely relative. Their speed relative to a human on Earth is disgustingly fast but relative to Galactic mechs is not. Simon is watching Anti-Spiral from his mech. A good way to visualize why the speed being relative is relevant is watch the scene where Anti-Spiral opens a portal to Earth to attack it. Look at how it moves. This is also how any Human would perceive it and why Simon is able to fight it despite being only Human. This doesn't make him Hypersonic or better and I recommend that the site as a whole recognizes things like this."
N-Nani? Read this, this, and this.

Them moving slow is certainly not the case. As you can see, it's the opposite; their speed is disgustingly slow when being watched from Earth, as you can see here at 8:30. Those are MFTL movements that look relatively close to a couple times over the speed of sound. That argument is illogical.

You're suggesting they aren't MFTL at all, and that their speed is actually snail-like, even though they are MFTL, fight across intergalactic distances, etc. Using the same link at 6:48, you can see them run past entire galaxies, and fight with non-human movements. Are you also aware that it is the pilots that power the mecha, and that the mecha doesn't transform or possess any power without them? Do you also realize that they control the movements of the mecha, and they've been many times faster than sound while they were on Earth?

We've also seen humans being able to fight mechs, as Lord Genome could fight Simon in his mech with his bare hands, and they are infinitely more powerful now, minus the fact that they would need to be in a giant mech to do anything worthwhile to a being that's multiple light years tall.
 
No, their mechs are indeed MFTL. I'm telling you, what you don't understand, is that at that size the relative speed does not make *Simon* or the *Anti-Spiral* itself MFTL. You guys do not understand relative speed. You are reacting to something moving MFTL from Light years away. You have more than enough time, relative, to react as a normal human being, because of the distance considered.

If you choose to still say they are MFTL in the face of this knowledge at least provide some evidence you have an idea of what I am talking about and then tell me why it is wrong.
 
No, you really don't have enough time to react, considering that those attacks are coming at quadrillions of times faster than light.

Trying to react to that is like trying to react to a bullet from a meter away.
 
1. Except the pilots themselves are the ones who move the mech

2. I've literally shown you a human fighting a mech at massively hypersonic speeds

3. We see Yoko using a riflecapable of shooting over intergalactic distances, as a human

4. They can react to receiving a point-blank universe-creating attack

5. Lord Genome literally jumps out from the mech in his own mech in the middle of the attack and absorbs all the energy
 
Considering they're many quadrillions of light years away, then yes, they can also react to something quadrillions of times the speed of light. It's a simple concept. Heck even in one of the links Unite My Rice linked supported the same argument.


Humans look slow partly because they are moving slowly relative to their body size. So, even if humans are actually much faster than a tiny creature in absolute terms, their movements will look slow.

In general, small creatures are able to cover a greater relative distance in small time. California mite covers 322 body lengths per second, which is equivalent to a person running roughly 580 m/s (ScienceDaily on this record)

Houseflies appear to be extremely quick when they fly at 2 m/s (8 km/h). Large ships don't look as fast at their top speed (> 50 km/h). Passenger airplanes move slowly across the sky at 500 knots (> 800 km/h).
 
I believe we have had the same arguement before with relative size. Cannot remember the outcome, but the arguement was used for Amitabha and Bahamut. I believe they chalked it up to being fiction PIS.
 
Simon scales based off their fist-fight, period. The Granzeboma was not what made the Anti-Spiral Multi-Universal. He created an entire multi-layered existence just with his own energy, AND a mech with a drill larger than the entire universe by a significant margin. At the end of the series, Simon was compared to God. He also made an entire space-time continuum explode by destroying the Anti-Spiral. He is definitely 2-C; this argument is moot. I suggest you familiarize yourself with our tiering system and the way we scale characters.
 
It's PIS or anyhing.

The argument is legitimate for the larger mechs, the mechs are moving fast but the speed it is offset by their enormous size, humans in the cockpit have, at worst, miliseconds to react as opposed to the ~attoseconds they would have if they were to try and dodge the same attacks from 1 meter away.

The characters shouldn't be considered MFTL+ for the simple act of piloting the mech.

That doesn't mean their stats aren't legitimate though, as paulo has shown in the video he linked, the anti-spiral intercepted Lagann while it was flying at MFTL+ speeds with his own body/tentacles, Simon obviously gets scaled to that as he fought him 1v1 in the movie, and managed to control Lagann enough to pierece the anti-spiral in the TV version.
 
It was mild sarcasm by me Everlasting, since their distance and speed cannot be acutely quantified, but also wasn't really relevant to the argument at hand. That said, Anti-Spiral has impressive creation feats and that's super cool but creation feats, once again, do not mean you are equivalent to your own creation. As well, your tiering system and power scaling system supports this if you read them. I read them long before I started this topic.
 
Anti-Spiral intercepted Lagann when Lagann was very close to him. And he didn't even do a very good job of it.

Edit: Gurren Lagann came to a complete halt and *tossed* Lagann. So the speed feat should only match Gurren's throwing strength.
 
Rune Katashima said:
It was mild sarcasm by me Everlasting, since their distance and speed cannot be acutely quantified, but also wasn't really relevant to the argument at hand. That said, Anti-Spiral has impressive creation feats and that's super cool but creation feats, once again, do not mean you are equivalent to your own creation. As well, your tiering system and power scaling system supports this if you read them. I read them long before I started this topic.
Click to expand...

Someone actually did a calculation and the result was several hundred thousnd times faster than the speed of light.

Creation is actually superior to destruction, and creation feats scale to general power feats

If you actually read them you'd realize that what you just said is incorrect
 
Creation is not equal to destructive power. If the site says that (it doesn't) then I'd argue we need to change that. It doesn't even make sense.
 
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of one universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline.

Multi-Universe level: Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universal space-time continuums. The power difference between Low 2-C and 2-C characters is not possible to exactly quantify, given that the latter category has to breach the distance between universes along a 5-dimensional axis.

Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale.
 
Creation requires more energy than destruction as youre making something from nothing as opposed to destroying something that already exists.
 
I can read. This is what he's listed as. I am disputing the listing, so there's no point elucidating me on his listing.

If he was as strong as that he wouldn't have needed to make the mech.
 
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