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My man, I can understand some of your points but a universe goes boom without any mecha is kinda hard to debate dude.
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Simon the Digger
- Thread starter Rune_Katashima
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- simon the digger
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- 144
- 16
- Thread starter
- #82
@Weekly I am not ignoring any arguments. As of the last several comments there's really been no arguments to ignore unfortunately. When the thread started there were some arguments to talk about. I'm actually quite certain I've addressed every argument. Just because I have a rebuttal doesn't mean I'm ignoring, that's the opposite. I have an answer for your quandary. Providing a list isn't really an argument. I can see that Anti-Spiral is a Class Low-2c creature and that's great. I'd quantify his creation to at least that point as well. I would just argue that his speed is not MFTL+ and that his AP is not equivalent to Low-2c.
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Actually, his speed has to be.
His tendrils themselves crossed millions of light years in a second.
His tendrils themselves crossed millions of light years in a second.
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@Rune Everyone has already explained to you why the Anti-Spiral and Simon are Low 2-C and MFTL+
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- #85
J-man yeah but the universe was just existing tied to him existing. It's not a universe-destruction feat. Otherwise all the bad guys whose fortress falls after they're defeated would upgrade the heroes to fortress level. You're basically saying he punches as hard as Goku, harder, even. I guess this is harder to explain than speed.
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- #86
His tendrils did not. If you watch the movie again (I did) his tendrils were from his mech for the most part. Then, when Simon was in visual distance of him did he use his own. That's most likely under a few miles at best.
Edit: You can tell because the mech tendrils and his own tendrils have a different appearance. And, well, they show it when he launches them himself.
Edit: You can tell because the mech tendrils and his own tendrils have a different appearance. And, well, they show it when he launches them himself.
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He exploded, the universe didn't collapse.
Also as for speed, his tendrils crossed millions of light years in a second, when fighting Simon he used his tendrils, Simon side stepped, grabbed them and kicked antispiral. Speed is fine as is..
Also as for speed, his tendrils crossed millions of light years in a second, when fighting Simon he used his tendrils, Simon side stepped, grabbed them and kicked antispiral. Speed is fine as is..
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Wasn't Simon at the epicenter of the damn universal explosion?
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Wait, so destroying someone who is tied to the destruction of a universe doesn't make them able to destroy a universe?Rune Katashima said:
I mean, let's say A is connected to B (Which is a Universe). C kills A and thus B (the Universe) is destroyed. We can literally cut out A, so C>B, because there is no way in hell a being with less power than Low 2-C can kill another being that blows up a Universe after he is destroyed.
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- #90
@Weekly; What they did was provide counter-arguments, which I am happy with, but I also rebutted them. But then everyone just did the "No you're stupid thing" and pretended my rebuttals didn't exist.
As I said, I will say it again since you skipped over it or something. They aren't MFTL by reaction speeds in their mechs due to relative distance. Unite actually supported my argument with his links even if he didn't mean to. I claimed as much and quoted something from them. Two or three of the links had irrelevant data however. If he wants to get precise with his argument, he should.
He then claimed Lord Genome as a human fought off GL, which is cool, but I don't see how that power scales in to anything. I asked him to explain, he claimed I don't have reading comprehension.
I am literally giving you guys every out to explain because I want a friendly debate but you're not giving it to me. Except J-man for the most part.
As I said, I will say it again since you skipped over it or something. They aren't MFTL by reaction speeds in their mechs due to relative distance. Unite actually supported my argument with his links even if he didn't mean to. I claimed as much and quoted something from them. Two or three of the links had irrelevant data however. If he wants to get precise with his argument, he should.
He then claimed Lord Genome as a human fought off GL, which is cool, but I don't see how that power scales in to anything. I asked him to explain, he claimed I don't have reading comprehension.
I am literally giving you guys every out to explain because I want a friendly debate but you're not giving it to me. Except J-man for the most part.
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I will debunk this one last time. The Super Spiral universe was being sustained by the Anti-Spiral's energy. Cause and effect. It's a little different. Creating a space-time continuum and a robot made of energy which contains ITS own space-time continuum is a 2-C feat. Simon destroying said robot and the Anti-Spiral (and his universe) is a 2-C feat. Plain and simple. The Anti-Spirals tendrils moved at a Massively FTL+ speed. Simon was able to match such a speed on his own, and keep up with the Anti-Spiral's movements. I'm sorry, but the ratings are not going to change, and any single scaler you argue with is going to mention the same points. Feats are feats, and creation feats > destruction feats. Not to mention CREATION of a universe is factored into the 2-C tier. This thread is done.
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What? When antispiral used his ow tendrils to shred lagann they were still light years away.
And even if they were just a few miles, thats be even more impressive since he just reacted to and hit a MFTL+ object coming at him that just crossed billions if light years in seconds and managed to have his tendrils cross and hit it befire it could reach him from a few miles away.
And even if they were just a few miles, thats be even more impressive since he just reacted to and hit a MFTL+ object coming at him that just crossed billions if light years in seconds and managed to have his tendrils cross and hit it befire it could reach him from a few miles away.
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- #93
This is a lot like saying Seath the Scaless has the same durability as the crystal in his cave.
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Seath has Small City level durability
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? The crystal gets taken out in one hit?
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Okay look.
List all your points in a neat order but simple order. I will try to answer them best I can. Let's see if we can end this in a post it two more.
List all your points in a neat order but simple order. I will try to answer them best I can. Let's see if we can end this in a post it two more.
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- #97
Well no Jman. His mech's tendrils slowed GL to almost a halt and GL tossed Lagann. So the speed is relative to whatever GL's throwing strength is. I thought I said this earlier in the thread? I might have edited it.
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- #98
My argument has only been about Simon, but naturally Anti-Spiral itself is a partial casualty to this.
My argument is that Simon and AS do not have the correct speed feats attributed to them because they are scaled from their mech fighting. I argue that even though the mechs are fighting on a universal scale, due to relative distance and size, their reaction speeds are at a normal level (closer to Superhuman but I'm not claiming Superhuman just less than MHS+).
The main point for their speed is when Simon and AS duke it out or specifically how AS tags Lagann as he's coming towards him. I have watched the anime ending and movie ending multiple times now. It is always Lagann being tossed at AS from not too far away by GL whose momentum has been killed. The distance here is negotioable but I don't see it as translating to MFTL+ as claimed. If someone wants to argue this is MFTL+ with calcs noting the correct distance, I'm all for it.
The argument for AP is that AS and Simon duked it out and AS "must" have universe level AP. I do not argue that AS has universe level creative power, but I do not agree creative power necessitates equal destructive power. Should the website contest it MUST be this way I want to make an argument and case it should not be, because there are certainly characters of a certain creative power and lacking in destruction (e.g. most mythological gods). As well that there is no reason for them to correlate at all.
As well, in some senses destructive power can equal durability, due to the phenomenon we're all familar with known as glass cannons, we cannot blindly accept that, so that's out. DB is pretty much the only universe I know where destructive power = durability.
I don't see a reason why AS's life being attached to the functionality of the universe equates to his destructive (or durability) potential. I see it as a non-sequitor. Basically a plot related device. Same way as I mentioned Seath's crystal. Or perhaps (think of one) a character whose life is attached to a gem. The durability of the gem doesn't necessarily equate their own personal durability.
My last point is and it saddens me that I think people are just really upset at the type of argument I am putting forth since it goes against many established notions. That they'd rather not break. Especially since many have probably put an emotional investment in to other vs battles involving this character and my argument might have a further reaching consequences than just Simon the Digger.
I just want to be friends guys.
My argument is that Simon and AS do not have the correct speed feats attributed to them because they are scaled from their mech fighting. I argue that even though the mechs are fighting on a universal scale, due to relative distance and size, their reaction speeds are at a normal level (closer to Superhuman but I'm not claiming Superhuman just less than MHS+).
The main point for their speed is when Simon and AS duke it out or specifically how AS tags Lagann as he's coming towards him. I have watched the anime ending and movie ending multiple times now. It is always Lagann being tossed at AS from not too far away by GL whose momentum has been killed. The distance here is negotioable but I don't see it as translating to MFTL+ as claimed. If someone wants to argue this is MFTL+ with calcs noting the correct distance, I'm all for it.
The argument for AP is that AS and Simon duked it out and AS "must" have universe level AP. I do not argue that AS has universe level creative power, but I do not agree creative power necessitates equal destructive power. Should the website contest it MUST be this way I want to make an argument and case it should not be, because there are certainly characters of a certain creative power and lacking in destruction (e.g. most mythological gods). As well that there is no reason for them to correlate at all.
As well, in some senses destructive power can equal durability, due to the phenomenon we're all familar with known as glass cannons, we cannot blindly accept that, so that's out. DB is pretty much the only universe I know where destructive power = durability.
I don't see a reason why AS's life being attached to the functionality of the universe equates to his destructive (or durability) potential. I see it as a non-sequitor. Basically a plot related device. Same way as I mentioned Seath's crystal. Or perhaps (think of one) a character whose life is attached to a gem. The durability of the gem doesn't necessarily equate their own personal durability.
My last point is and it saddens me that I think people are just really upset at the type of argument I am putting forth since it goes against many established notions. That they'd rather not break. Especially since many have probably put an emotional investment in to other vs battles involving this character and my argument might have a further reaching consequences than just Simon the Digger.
I just want to be friends guys.
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What? That doesn't change anything, that just means Gurren can throw hard as shit since he threw lagann so hard he crossed billions of light years in seconds, Lagann was still moving that speed, he had to of he else wouldnt of been able to cross hat distance.
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My links proved that what you said in the OP was wrong, idk how you managed to spin that so you made it look like I'm indirectly supporting you.
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- #101
https://youtu.be/EEI-NCTsiPE?t=4m10s
This isn't billions of light years. This is re-entry. If you watch at about 4:02 you will see that the whole point of the scene was to show each Mech getting him closer and closer so he can engage AS itself.
This isn't billions of light years. This is re-entry. If you watch at about 4:02 you will see that the whole point of the scene was to show each Mech getting him closer and closer so he can engage AS itself.
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Yeah it was reentry. But that planet is millions of light years wide dude.
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- #103
Not if you compare size of Lagann to it. It looks marginally larger than Earth.
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Not really, remember, that planet is visible at all times, from.the top of a mecha thats stated to be 100 million light years tall. If ya want I can find the exact suze and thus the exact distance it crossed from reentry to the antispiral.
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Even when lagann is thrown, you can see it pass multiple galaxies while dodging the tendrils.
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- #106
Actually no, Unite. You can't. I was going to chalk up your claim to perspective (because that's what it'd be) but in fact when Lagann is thrown it immediately transitions to anime speed lines, then a view of all the mechs, then back to Lagann going in to re-entry.
Edit: Did you guys read my big edit a few comments up?
Edit: Did you guys read my big edit a few comments up?
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No actually, I'm on a phone, when I click notifications it automatically puts me at the newest reply.
I'll read it now.
I'll read it now.
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- #108
I have to use that YT clip because it's all I have available to me atm (my movie is on broken HDD and I can't find anything from earlier fight on YT, banned content and whatnot) but analyzing this clip frame by frame you can only see the world when STTGL gets downgraded to the Moon Gurren Lagann (which is actually technically smaller than our own moon). It's far away but each scene of downgrading TTGL has the point (and requisite perspective change) of showing him getting closer, so it's notable he can see the world at that moment and not any sooner. Due to perspective I would of course still say it's roughly the size of Earth at least.
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- y argument is that Simon and AS do not have the correct speed feats attributed to them because they are scaled from their mech fighting. I argue that even though the mechs are fighting on a universal scale, due to relative distance and size, their reaction speeds are at a normal level (closer to Superhuman but I'm not claiming Superhuman just less than MHS+). The main point for their speed is when Simon and AS duke it out or specifically how AS tags Lagann as he's coming towards him. I have watched the anime ending and movie ending multiple times now. It is always Lagann being tossed at AS from not too far away by GL whose momentum has been killed. The distance here is negotioable but I don't see it as translating to MFTL+ as claimed. If someone wants to argue this is MFTL+ with calcs noting the correct distance, I'm all for it.
- The argument for AP is that AS and Simon duked it out and AS "must" have universe level AP. I do not argue that AS has universe level creative power, but I do not agree creative power necessitates equal destructive power. Should the website contest it MUST be this way I want to make an argument and case it should not be, because there are certainly characters of a certain creative power and lacking in destruction (e.g. most mythological gods). As well that there is no reason for them to correlate at all. As well, in some senses destructive power can equal durability, due to the phenomenon we're all familar with known as glass cannons, we cannot blindly accept that, so that's out. DB is pretty much the only universe I know where destructive power = durability.
- I don't see a reason why AS's life being attached to the functionality of the universe equates to his destructive (or durability) potential. I see it as a non-sequitor. Basically a plot related device. Same way as I mentioned Seath's crystal. Or perhaps (think of one) a character whose life is attached to a gem. The durability of the gem doesn't necessarily equate their own personal durability.
- My last point is and it saddens me that I think people are just really upset at the type of argument I am putting forth since it goes against many established notions. That they'd rather not break. Especially since many have probably put an emotional investment in to other vs battles involving this character and my argument might have a further reaching consequences than just Simon the Digger.I just want to be friends guys.
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I mean if ya really wanted to downgrade Simon there is an option, but it'll only downgrade him to low 2-C. If it's even accepted.
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He was already Low 2-C, before it was argued and eventually accepted that he was 2-C based off scaling to the Anti-Spiral. These threads have happened multiple times in the past, whether to down or upgrade these characters, and this is what has been decided again and again. It's like trying to downgrade Goku based off the pretense that his one-time universal feat was an outlier.
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- #112
Well I wasn't being an ass, but people posited I was *shrug*.
Well it was Anti-Spiral Space anyway. That wasn't actually the perceivable universe they were fighting in. Similar to a pocket dimension. The AS created that universe for them to fight in. It's difficult to say what exactly happened at the end. As one of two sidepoints; that place looked really small, about equal to what the Hubble Telescope saw when it stared at a "blank" spot in the sky for however long it was.
The other sidepoint is I think we should make a distinction between anime and movie Simon since they seem clearly different.
But I mean, Goku is consistent with more evidence. Just talking about quantity.
But I should have addressed this, I don't think that "explosion" at the end had any damage to it.
Edit: Sigh, anyway. I have to go. We've been on this for awhile and it's been fun. I know I started it but it's not like I knew how long I'd be in this. I am more than happy to continue tomorrow.
Well it was Anti-Spiral Space anyway. That wasn't actually the perceivable universe they were fighting in. Similar to a pocket dimension. The AS created that universe for them to fight in. It's difficult to say what exactly happened at the end. As one of two sidepoints; that place looked really small, about equal to what the Hubble Telescope saw when it stared at a "blank" spot in the sky for however long it was.
The other sidepoint is I think we should make a distinction between anime and movie Simon since they seem clearly different.
But I mean, Goku is consistent with more evidence. Just talking about quantity.
But I should have addressed this, I don't think that "explosion" at the end had any damage to it.
Edit: Sigh, anyway. I have to go. We've been on this for awhile and it's been fun. I know I started it but it's not like I knew how long I'd be in this. I am more than happy to continue tomorrow.
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Didn't mean you were, I'm saying don't be and no one will care.
The dimension can house their mecha (ttyl is officially 100 million light years tall, sttgl is 96.8 billion light years tall, the size of the observable universe. ) so yeah, the place is big.
Maybe yeah.
Goku is fine.
Yeah no, thats unfounded.
The dimension can house their mecha (ttyl is officially 100 million light years tall, sttgl is 96.8 billion light years tall, the size of the observable universe. ) so yeah, the place is big.
Maybe yeah.
Goku is fine.
Yeah no, thats unfounded.
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You're new so you probably don't know, but this has been discussed 4 billion times now. Drop it.
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Honestly, it would just be best if this thread were locked. They can just as easily ask in the Questions and Answers board as to why the characters were rated as they were, and hear it from the admins who have decided on it. In fact, there is a rule about not trying to upgrade them. Maybe one could be set in place for trying to downgrade them massively as well?
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I agree, this won't get anywhere.
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