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Hello everyone!
I have been sitting on this site for many years and vsb has become a place for me where I can have a great discussion with other people and have an interesting time with calculations. I wanted to write this thread a few months ago, but I couldn't get my thoughts together because of its scale and the fact that it affects 90% of the content. However, I'm here and decided to do it. I'm sure there will be those who disagree with my theses or say that this has already happened, but I really would like to do something to improve the wiki system.
We will talk about the NARRATIVE and its influence on the level of verse. And also on the contradiction of many calculations of the history of poetry and the logic of narration. This thread is just a starting point, and therefore, if I have the right number of supporters, then later I will delve into each of the points by creating a new thread for them.
Before answering the points, I would like you to read the entire post in its entirety. It's not about lowering specific verses. They have their own calculations that have already been accepted. We are talking about changing the system of force assessment and a more rigorous approach. Therefore, if you suddenly see that I made a mistake with your favorite verse, I will be glad if you point it out to me, but do not make the discussion of your verse the main topic. I hope for your understanding.
Now I would like to talk about such things as:
1) Tier list. Exploits and statements. Destructive potential and attacking potential. What is more important? The role of earthquake calculations, cloud calculations, and kinetic energy calculations in the force level. Attacking potential or hacks?
2) Force multipliers and when should they really be used?
3) Lifting force. Does any feat of strength really apply to LS?
4) To what extent does the level of forces fit into the narrative of the verse and does not violate the logic of the work?
In the history of art, the destructive potential of a character plays a huge role in demonstrating the power of a character.
"He's a monster! He punched the asphalt with his bare hands like it was butter or jelly!"
"This guy destroyed a damn mountain with one punch!"
"This guy is going to destroy an entire planet. He is incredibly strong..."
You've probably heard these quotes in various works. The best way to show the strength of a character is a simple visual demonstration through which we, as a viewer, reader or player, can directly observe.
Of course, the authors do not always have enough budget, strength or skills, and we can get an idea of strength through the statements of other characters or the author's comments. However, this is an item that needs to be given sufficient attention.
On the one hand, we have God of War and Devil May Cry, where a whole ent is built on these statements and the authors cannot fully show the scale of the characters' powers through visualization, because this will turn a brutal slasher into a Gurren-Lagann.
On the other hand, we have works like Grappler Baki, where we have a huge amount that the characters surpass all human weapons, can defeat the country, move faster than light. But this is absolutely in contrast to the fact that ordinary bullets are able to pierce the skin of characters and bleed them, so a conventional nuclear missile, if it does not erase the character into dust, then completely burns his skin, leaving him to die. Or it contradicts the moments when the characters do not dodge much slower attacks. It contradicts the moments when the characters explicitly say that they are not sure about their statements regarding power scaling.
Or the author simply does not understand what he is writing. I swear, if you want, I'll ask my friend to find a moment where the magazine says that Yujiro is transcendent about time and space or something like that. What the hell?
If the feats shown are direct evidence, then the statements are more secondary achievements. I'm not saying that we should completely ignore them, but we should take them much more seriously.
A quote "He can destroy our world" can simultaneously be supportive for calculating High 6-A/5-B, and it is vague to talk about the character's ability to do this, because with enough time, even a 7-C character with hypersonic+ speed can destroy the world without the resulting resistance.
"He is more dangerous than any human weapon" can also be successfully suited for the Supersonic+ and 8-B character, who will simply leave the line of fire of any weapon and destroy the enemy's equipment and army with greater success than the 7-C bomb will do.
Anyway, the best evidence of a character's strength is his destructive potential, because this is exactly what the author wanted and was able to show us.
If the destructive potential shows the power of a character through the scale of destruction or the level of phenomena necessary for them, then the attacking potential is a broader concept that covers any manifestations of the character's interaction with surrounding people or the environment, whether it is the creation of an earthquake, storm, freezing of something or many other options.
However, do the authors always think about what real power the character carries through these manifestations?
In his interview, Murata stated that the Evil Eye character has a "multi-buildeng" level and we really saw how this devil threw several buildings at once. However, we have a 7-C hurricane calculation, which goes against what Murata and One intended.
Works such as Kengan and Grappler Baki have a number of earthquake exploits that place the verse at a level from 8-B to 7-C, although all the exploits of the verse do not go beyond 9-B, and the best of them are 9-A/8-C. Moreover, we see that conventional weapons and items can also harm characters. Is this author's stupidity? Of course, the authors of works often overestimate knives and bullets. However, this makes it clear that they clearly do not intend the characters to be like Godzilla, capable of surviving a nuclear bomb.
Speaking of the nuclear bomb. For example, I will also give the characters of Prototype, whose destructive character set is within 8-C, however, we have a potential earthquake feat that puts the verse at 8-A/Low 7-C with a low end and probably higher if higher magnitudes are used. However, at the end of the game we have a scene where the character was torn to pieces by the shock wave of a nuclear explosion, which had a force of 8-B.
More recently, the verse Kimetsu no Yaiba scaled to 8-A through the feat of freezing, while all other feats of the verse were at the strength of 8-C and even the strongest character of the verse did not demonstrate anything close to this.
Of course, these are all specific examples and they are not applicable to all statements, but some demonstrate the very fact of the problem of the difference between DP and AP.
I have seen many other verses where all the exploits did not go beyond the 8th tier, however, we had exploits of freezing, earthquakes and the formation of storms, which put the verses on the 7th and 6th tier.
Personally, I think that such calculations should be supportive, not basic. If a character shows 8-C feats throughout the story, takes damage from verse characters who didn't show anything above 8-C, but demonstrated 7-C ability at some point, it seems questionable to scale it up to that. This should be discussed and either treated as an outlier, or we can use "possibly" if it is so important for us to maintain a high level of verse and the fact of compromise.
This turns the dubious "7-C" into "8-C, possibly 7-C", which makes more sense.
Also, these calculations will be an excellent support for a full-fledged level determination if we have a relaxed or ordinary Low 7-C feat, and the supporting feat is 7-C. Or if there is a High 6-C destruction feat and a 6-B supporting feat. As long as it's in the same tier and doesn't look like an outlier, it makes sense.
Of course, we have many exploits of the storm that are a manifestation of pure physical strength, as in the case of All Might, which hit so hard that a thunderstorm formed.
However, it seems to me that most of these feats relate more to abilities and hacks, rather than being a means of manifesting AP.
I think these are great supporting feats that can help with scaling when there are similar DP calculations, even with lower values, but coming in the same tier.
Sometimes, to indicate the superiority or growth of a character, the author often resorts to statements based on power multipliers.
"He's twice as fast!"
"He's 10 times stronger than me."
I'm not against using multipliers, but they should also be logically sound.
In Kengan, we have a moment when, receiving a blow from Wakatsuki, Ohma admits that he is outnumbered 5 times. We also see an x3 multiplier for kicks for Wakatsuki. Ohma successfully survives these attacks, albeit with serious damage, although the attack exceeds its strength by 15 times, but does not cause anything more than bruises and cracks in bones. Does it make sense? Hardly.
In the same Kengan, there is a scene where Raian was beaten by Edward using x3.33 and no one could even damage him, but at the end of the fight he breaks through the enemy into pieces, even if he was completely weakened. He does this while in his basic form, which also doesn't make sense.
The biggest madness of multipliers for me is the Black Clover verse. I will say right away that I am not familiar with the work and only observe that we have in mind High 6-A and a bunch of multipliers that raise the verse to Low 5-B (!!!). It looks like pure madness considering the number of multipliers.
Multipliers work with a small number of them, but when the entire power level of a verse is based on 1 feat and a dozen of its multipliers, it looks far-fetched.
I think for the full use of multipliers, we should see supporting feats, which do not even have to confirm the multiplier figure exactly, but only show clear superiority.
I understand that strength can be measured both in how heavy an object you lift and in how fast you throw it. However, this has gone too far now.
I will cite the same Kengan, Grappler Baki and Chainsaw Man as an example, because these are works that I am well versed in.
The first two tell the story of ordinary people who became superhumans through training and comprehension of martial arts. Yes, we have exploits where they break down walls and do other crazy AP things. However, they have never shown that they have the ability to lift tens of thousands of tons, as calculations for crushing stone, steel or wood suggest.
Throughout the story, the characters can show that they throw people like rag dolls, flip trucks, lift cars and hold helicopters, but all this does not go beyond the boundaries of Class 100. At best, it reaches values of 70 tons for the highest LS feats.
We also have a lot of claims that the strength records of the characters are 500 kg.
In Kengan, a character with one of the most outstanding powers has trouble lifting a 20 kg sword because his center of gravity is located at the very end of the blade. Hayami also threatens to blow up the building, saying that everyone will die, which implies that the characters will not be able to rise from the rubble of the arena.
The characters also look tense as they perform their much weaker feats.
Because of this, Class M calculations, which find the force of a push, jump or hand pressure, giving results 1000 times higher than what the strongest representatives of the universe show, seem to be an outlier.
Against the background of all this discussion, I have a question - how well the calculated levels of forces fit into the framework of the story and the logic of the narrative.
Using the example of scaling the same Kengan and Baki, we see that the entire verse is within the framework of 7-C, which makes them more dangerous than nuclear bombs, but in the course of history this applies only to the 2 strongest characters of these verses, against which the rest simply fade.
We have many situations where characters have calculations of High 7-A, and then the author seriously opposes the character's strength to a nuclear bomb and considers it a threat.
Or a situation where a High 6-A character is wholeheartedly surprised that his opponent can destroy a mountain.
This is also perfectly evident in the scaling example of Ultron, which, until one of its last editions, scaled as Low 4-C, which made absolutely meaningless its "High 6-A with preparation" key when it intended to destroy the surface of the earth with a sophisticated plan.
This can also be illustrated by the Beelzebub universe, where half of the verse is High 6-C, while the main villain's attack was supposed to destroy everything within a 10 km radius and kill all the characters, and other characters scaling to High 6-C did not show anything above 8-B.
First of all, we must not forget that we are dealing with the characters of the stories in which all the exploits and events take place. The authors may make mistakes such as punching with ordinary bullets and something of this category, but the narrative also imposes its own limits. Therefore, if in the course of the narrative we are told that the characters are in the 9th tier, and the manifestations of the destruction of the 7th tier seem to be a disaster and certain death for all of them, then the 7th tier obtained for them through calculations simply does not make sense.
I have been sitting on this site for many years and vsb has become a place for me where I can have a great discussion with other people and have an interesting time with calculations. I wanted to write this thread a few months ago, but I couldn't get my thoughts together because of its scale and the fact that it affects 90% of the content. However, I'm here and decided to do it. I'm sure there will be those who disagree with my theses or say that this has already happened, but I really would like to do something to improve the wiki system.
We will talk about the NARRATIVE and its influence on the level of verse. And also on the contradiction of many calculations of the history of poetry and the logic of narration. This thread is just a starting point, and therefore, if I have the right number of supporters, then later I will delve into each of the points by creating a new thread for them.
Before answering the points, I would like you to read the entire post in its entirety. It's not about lowering specific verses. They have their own calculations that have already been accepted. We are talking about changing the system of force assessment and a more rigorous approach. Therefore, if you suddenly see that I made a mistake with your favorite verse, I will be glad if you point it out to me, but do not make the discussion of your verse the main topic. I hope for your understanding.
Now I would like to talk about such things as:
1) Tier list. Exploits and statements. Destructive potential and attacking potential. What is more important? The role of earthquake calculations, cloud calculations, and kinetic energy calculations in the force level. Attacking potential or hacks?
2) Force multipliers and when should they really be used?
3) Lifting force. Does any feat of strength really apply to LS?
4) To what extent does the level of forces fit into the narrative of the verse and does not violate the logic of the work?
Tier list. Which is more important - destructive potential or attacking potential?
In the history of art, the destructive potential of a character plays a huge role in demonstrating the power of a character.
"He's a monster! He punched the asphalt with his bare hands like it was butter or jelly!"
"This guy destroyed a damn mountain with one punch!"
"This guy is going to destroy an entire planet. He is incredibly strong..."
You've probably heard these quotes in various works. The best way to show the strength of a character is a simple visual demonstration through which we, as a viewer, reader or player, can directly observe.
Of course, the authors do not always have enough budget, strength or skills, and we can get an idea of strength through the statements of other characters or the author's comments. However, this is an item that needs to be given sufficient attention.
On the one hand, we have God of War and Devil May Cry, where a whole ent is built on these statements and the authors cannot fully show the scale of the characters' powers through visualization, because this will turn a brutal slasher into a Gurren-Lagann.
On the other hand, we have works like Grappler Baki, where we have a huge amount that the characters surpass all human weapons, can defeat the country, move faster than light. But this is absolutely in contrast to the fact that ordinary bullets are able to pierce the skin of characters and bleed them, so a conventional nuclear missile, if it does not erase the character into dust, then completely burns his skin, leaving him to die. Or it contradicts the moments when the characters do not dodge much slower attacks. It contradicts the moments when the characters explicitly say that they are not sure about their statements regarding power scaling.
Or the author simply does not understand what he is writing. I swear, if you want, I'll ask my friend to find a moment where the magazine says that Yujiro is transcendent about time and space or something like that. What the hell?
If the feats shown are direct evidence, then the statements are more secondary achievements. I'm not saying that we should completely ignore them, but we should take them much more seriously.
A quote "He can destroy our world" can simultaneously be supportive for calculating High 6-A/5-B, and it is vague to talk about the character's ability to do this, because with enough time, even a 7-C character with hypersonic+ speed can destroy the world without the resulting resistance.
"He is more dangerous than any human weapon" can also be successfully suited for the Supersonic+ and 8-B character, who will simply leave the line of fire of any weapon and destroy the enemy's equipment and army with greater success than the 7-C bomb will do.
Anyway, the best evidence of a character's strength is his destructive potential, because this is exactly what the author wanted and was able to show us.
If the destructive potential shows the power of a character through the scale of destruction or the level of phenomena necessary for them, then the attacking potential is a broader concept that covers any manifestations of the character's interaction with surrounding people or the environment, whether it is the creation of an earthquake, storm, freezing of something or many other options.
However, do the authors always think about what real power the character carries through these manifestations?
In his interview, Murata stated that the Evil Eye character has a "multi-buildeng" level and we really saw how this devil threw several buildings at once. However, we have a 7-C hurricane calculation, which goes against what Murata and One intended.
Works such as Kengan and Grappler Baki have a number of earthquake exploits that place the verse at a level from 8-B to 7-C, although all the exploits of the verse do not go beyond 9-B, and the best of them are 9-A/8-C. Moreover, we see that conventional weapons and items can also harm characters. Is this author's stupidity? Of course, the authors of works often overestimate knives and bullets. However, this makes it clear that they clearly do not intend the characters to be like Godzilla, capable of surviving a nuclear bomb.
Speaking of the nuclear bomb. For example, I will also give the characters of Prototype, whose destructive character set is within 8-C, however, we have a potential earthquake feat that puts the verse at 8-A/Low 7-C with a low end and probably higher if higher magnitudes are used. However, at the end of the game we have a scene where the character was torn to pieces by the shock wave of a nuclear explosion, which had a force of 8-B.
More recently, the verse Kimetsu no Yaiba scaled to 8-A through the feat of freezing, while all other feats of the verse were at the strength of 8-C and even the strongest character of the verse did not demonstrate anything close to this.
Of course, these are all specific examples and they are not applicable to all statements, but some demonstrate the very fact of the problem of the difference between DP and AP.
I have seen many other verses where all the exploits did not go beyond the 8th tier, however, we had exploits of freezing, earthquakes and the formation of storms, which put the verses on the 7th and 6th tier.
Personally, I think that such calculations should be supportive, not basic. If a character shows 8-C feats throughout the story, takes damage from verse characters who didn't show anything above 8-C, but demonstrated 7-C ability at some point, it seems questionable to scale it up to that. This should be discussed and either treated as an outlier, or we can use "possibly" if it is so important for us to maintain a high level of verse and the fact of compromise.
This turns the dubious "7-C" into "8-C, possibly 7-C", which makes more sense.
Also, these calculations will be an excellent support for a full-fledged level determination if we have a relaxed or ordinary Low 7-C feat, and the supporting feat is 7-C. Or if there is a High 6-C destruction feat and a 6-B supporting feat. As long as it's in the same tier and doesn't look like an outlier, it makes sense.
Of course, we have many exploits of the storm that are a manifestation of pure physical strength, as in the case of All Might, which hit so hard that a thunderstorm formed.
However, it seems to me that most of these feats relate more to abilities and hacks, rather than being a means of manifesting AP.
I think these are great supporting feats that can help with scaling when there are similar DP calculations, even with lower values, but coming in the same tier.
Force multipliers. How reliable is this shit anyway?
Sometimes, to indicate the superiority or growth of a character, the author often resorts to statements based on power multipliers.
"He's twice as fast!"
"He's 10 times stronger than me."
I'm not against using multipliers, but they should also be logically sound.
In Kengan, we have a moment when, receiving a blow from Wakatsuki, Ohma admits that he is outnumbered 5 times. We also see an x3 multiplier for kicks for Wakatsuki. Ohma successfully survives these attacks, albeit with serious damage, although the attack exceeds its strength by 15 times, but does not cause anything more than bruises and cracks in bones. Does it make sense? Hardly.
In the same Kengan, there is a scene where Raian was beaten by Edward using x3.33 and no one could even damage him, but at the end of the fight he breaks through the enemy into pieces, even if he was completely weakened. He does this while in his basic form, which also doesn't make sense.
The biggest madness of multipliers for me is the Black Clover verse. I will say right away that I am not familiar with the work and only observe that we have in mind High 6-A and a bunch of multipliers that raise the verse to Low 5-B (!!!). It looks like pure madness considering the number of multipliers.
Multipliers work with a small number of them, but when the entire power level of a verse is based on 1 feat and a dozen of its multipliers, it looks far-fetched.
I think for the full use of multipliers, we should see supporting feats, which do not even have to confirm the multiplier figure exactly, but only show clear superiority.
Lifting power. How did "I can lift the car" turn into "I left a dent in the steel door and now I have a Class M"?
I understand that strength can be measured both in how heavy an object you lift and in how fast you throw it. However, this has gone too far now.
I will cite the same Kengan, Grappler Baki and Chainsaw Man as an example, because these are works that I am well versed in.
The first two tell the story of ordinary people who became superhumans through training and comprehension of martial arts. Yes, we have exploits where they break down walls and do other crazy AP things. However, they have never shown that they have the ability to lift tens of thousands of tons, as calculations for crushing stone, steel or wood suggest.
Throughout the story, the characters can show that they throw people like rag dolls, flip trucks, lift cars and hold helicopters, but all this does not go beyond the boundaries of Class 100. At best, it reaches values of 70 tons for the highest LS feats.
We also have a lot of claims that the strength records of the characters are 500 kg.
In Kengan, a character with one of the most outstanding powers has trouble lifting a 20 kg sword because his center of gravity is located at the very end of the blade. Hayami also threatens to blow up the building, saying that everyone will die, which implies that the characters will not be able to rise from the rubble of the arena.
The characters also look tense as they perform their much weaker feats.
Because of this, Class M calculations, which find the force of a push, jump or hand pressure, giving results 1000 times higher than what the strongest representatives of the universe show, seem to be an outlier.
Power levels and does it fit with the story?
Against the background of all this discussion, I have a question - how well the calculated levels of forces fit into the framework of the story and the logic of the narrative.
Using the example of scaling the same Kengan and Baki, we see that the entire verse is within the framework of 7-C, which makes them more dangerous than nuclear bombs, but in the course of history this applies only to the 2 strongest characters of these verses, against which the rest simply fade.
We have many situations where characters have calculations of High 7-A, and then the author seriously opposes the character's strength to a nuclear bomb and considers it a threat.
Or a situation where a High 6-A character is wholeheartedly surprised that his opponent can destroy a mountain.
This is also perfectly evident in the scaling example of Ultron, which, until one of its last editions, scaled as Low 4-C, which made absolutely meaningless its "High 6-A with preparation" key when it intended to destroy the surface of the earth with a sophisticated plan.
This can also be illustrated by the Beelzebub universe, where half of the verse is High 6-C, while the main villain's attack was supposed to destroy everything within a 10 km radius and kill all the characters, and other characters scaling to High 6-C did not show anything above 8-B.
First of all, we must not forget that we are dealing with the characters of the stories in which all the exploits and events take place. The authors may make mistakes such as punching with ordinary bullets and something of this category, but the narrative also imposes its own limits. Therefore, if in the course of the narrative we are told that the characters are in the 9th tier, and the manifestations of the destruction of the 7th tier seem to be a disaster and certain death for all of them, then the 7th tier obtained for them through calculations simply does not make sense.
