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Well, a sub-section of that page, yes.
I agree with all of the above quote.
It also differs a lot in nature from case to case, which likely makes it very difficult to remove and/or replace properly.
Also agreed.
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Should we reduce how many Power pages we have?
- Thread starter Tllmbrg
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- power and abilities
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Bobsican
He/Him- 21,646
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TBH this is like making a page for the power of friendship, just an ability that has as its power source social conditions in the environment, which generally just falls as a gimmicky subset of Empowerment, and Chaos Manip does not correlate to Law Manip, the two abilities generally are treated as separate and don't inherently counteract each other or anything.
You keep focusing so much on Castlevania when this power isn't used in detail beyond random mentions of "chaos" and the like on average, at that point you could even just make a verse-specific P&A page for this case if it's really that worth bringing up in detail, which'd make sense as chaos in itself is not a physical thing to throw around (and the current page doesn't imply that it's physical either), much like how verses that make overly complicated used of manipulating the lack of light have gotten verse-specific P&As if they can inflict a variety of effects and the like with it.
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What do you think controlling Order is in fiction? Especially when Order is treated as an idea to use? Chaos and Order are polar opposites.
You clearly haven’t seen Grimoire of Souls then when they’ve used Chaos numerous times in that game’s story for different things to cause disorder. Chaos not being physical doesn’t invalidate the ability, by that logic every esoteric hax ever isn’t an ability because they’re involving controlling something not physical.
You clearly haven’t seen Grimoire of Souls then when they’ve used Chaos numerous times in that game’s story for different things to cause disorder. Chaos not being physical doesn’t invalidate the ability, by that logic every esoteric hax ever isn’t an ability because they’re involving controlling something not physical.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,646
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Something vague that requires being evaluated case by case for our purposes, it can't be inherently defined as soon someone brings it up as much we don't assume that someone being stated to manipulate a concept isn't inherently Concept Manip, let alone a significant kind (aka, not type 3).
Chaos isn't brought up that significantly on the plot, add to that chaos in itself being an animate constant in the verse and it's quite clear the way this verse handles it is not really the standard to begin with.
One thing is something with inherent abstract attributes (say, Concept Manip), another is something that leans more on just being an adjective, like someone manipulating beauty, there's a lot of manners to do so, and being constantly used in a verse in a consistent manner doesn't make it compatible as is for a P&A that's going to be used site-wide regardless of context (As said before, it's often given to characters that bring up "chaos" with no further context), not just that verse.
If anything I'd advocate to making the criteria to qualify for this P&A stricter if it's to stay.
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Order is the same as Law in a lot of fictional series, and Chaos is it’s polar opposite.
yeah using a wiki summary isn’t helping your case when they don’t explain the details, the chaos in the beings is causing the disorder and affects what the cast are trying to do in the story.
you can try to advocate it but Ant already disagreed with the removal, so good luck with that.
yeah using a wiki summary isn’t helping your case when they don’t explain the details, the chaos in the beings is causing the disorder and affects what the cast are trying to do in the story.
you can try to advocate it but Ant already disagreed with the removal, so good luck with that.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,646
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How it's a opposite can vary a lot for our purposes, especially when it comes to also often just being a thematic duality.
If you say so.
Removing and reworking a P&A are very different things as said before, but I'll concede on not removing it, although I'm not the biggest fan of it.
If you say so.
Removing and reworking a P&A are very different things as said before, but I'll concede on not removing it, although I'm not the biggest fan of it.
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Regarding the 'Reworking' matter, indeed, your current approach seems to lack productivity. If your intention is to make changes to the pages, a more effective method would be to present them in the sandbox and allow staff members to assess them. Simply “suggesting” because reasons will extend this thread to 10 pages.
Are we ready to move on with this? I would like to handle this thread without derailment.
Are we ready to move on with this? I would like to handle this thread without derailment.
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 605
- 637
I guess u can start off by merging the least controversial one i.e adding awakened and rage power as sub sections in Stat Amp page.
They don't seem to have any opposition as of yet.
The rest we can tackle later one by one.
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I had the intention to do it exactly like this, but observing Bob's engagement in this discussion as mere diversion rather than constructive input is not only disheartening but also aggravating.
He seems to engage in arguments for the sake of arguing, without offering any suggestions for enhancement or clarifying the aspects he intends to revise.
This situation is causing me significant frustration, something I genuinely find unpleasant and may unfollow the thread and let someone else handle it.
He seems to engage in arguments for the sake of arguing, without offering any suggestions for enhancement or clarifying the aspects he intends to revise.
This situation is causing me significant frustration, something I genuinely find unpleasant and may unfollow the thread and let someone else handle it.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,646
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Well, agreeing on reworking some abilities would mean that I could opt to rewrite the brought up issues accordingly without having to worry about trying to fix something that isn't broken.
Ideally I wanted to keep that sort of stuff to another thread later on to minimize derailing, so sorry if that wasn't intuitive.
Ideally I wanted to keep that sort of stuff to another thread later on to minimize derailing, so sorry if that wasn't intuitive.
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Bob, can you tone things down please?
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,646
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Well, I was already done on input so far here.
I did clarify some of the aspects I wanted to revise, but some just assumed that everything I mentioned was a deletion proposal when I also mentioned stuff that could use some other means of fixing instead.
Anyways, I'd rather leave it to everyone else to handle the current stuff, as said before I'll do some CRTs in the future for the other stuff.
I did clarify some of the aspects I wanted to revise, but some just assumed that everything I mentioned was a deletion proposal when I also mentioned stuff that could use some other means of fixing instead.
Anyways, I'd rather leave it to everyone else to handle the current stuff, as said before I'll do some CRTs in the future for the other stuff.
Mr. Bambu
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Honestly, though I also run a verse with a major trend of Chaos being a power, I'd be supportive of its deletion- it, in of itself, means nothing. Being the opposite to Law can also just be Law Manip, same as destroying water could be considered Water Manip. I think that's a fair power to remove.
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I think keeping Chaos Manipulation is fine.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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What are the current conclusions here?
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 605
- 637
This was a proposal I made the last time, tackling the least controversial issues one at a time.
Seems to have been agreed by Ant and Bob and the others haven't showed any opposition to merging, up till now.
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I will begin merging the agreed proposals today.
Sorry for any delay. I have been involved in many projects lately, and I am experiencing some college-related stress.
It's good that I created a formal post to determine which one should be removed or not.
Sorry for any delay. I have been involved in many projects lately, and I am experiencing some college-related stress.
It's good that I created a formal post to determine which one should be removed or not.
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Those are pages that need to be unlocked. I will be performing merging tomorrow as it is late for me and I must wake up early for my college.
As for breath attack, it can also be done through bot (not sure why someone here says it has to be manually), but sadly none here use AWB for it. I could do it, but given I lack permissions, I cannot unfortunately help.
As for breath attack, it can also be done through bot (not sure why someone here says it has to be manually), but sadly none here use AWB for it. I could do it, but given I lack permissions, I cannot unfortunately help.
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Busy with another project so no.
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Okay. No problem.
Can you write a regular text list of all the pages that you need unlocked please, @ImmortalDread ?
Can you write a regular text list of all the pages that you need unlocked please, @ImmortalDread ?
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Excuse me, but I talked with Ant and told him some... "problems" I have with some decisions I read in the thread. He told me that it was fine by him with me commenting here.
On one hand we have my rejection with the deletion of Chaos Manipulation: our definition is rather ambiguous, and if we are going to compare it with Law Manipulation is that said power was rewritten and given an explanation that wasn't superfluous. Also the chaos itself it doesn't grant any tier nor NLF, as I told Ant, it's just an aspect that needs to be covered. We could take a look at our brother Wikia regarding their definition of chaos. Hell... even in the Law Manipulation usages Chaos Manipulation is an application of said power.
On the other hand I think that superpowers like Petrification, Paralysis Inducement, Corrosion Inducement and, maybe, Alternate Future Display could be explained as Status Effect Inducement. I'm not saying the superpowers should be written in the Status Effect Inducement page but reduced as a large parenthesis explaining the status caused. The problem is that is going to be a large rework and maybe it won't be well viewed.
Well, I just wanted to give my opinion regarding some things I've read here.
Thank you, Ant.
On one hand we have my rejection with the deletion of Chaos Manipulation: our definition is rather ambiguous, and if we are going to compare it with Law Manipulation is that said power was rewritten and given an explanation that wasn't superfluous. Also the chaos itself it doesn't grant any tier nor NLF, as I told Ant, it's just an aspect that needs to be covered. We could take a look at our brother Wikia regarding their definition of chaos. Hell... even in the Law Manipulation usages Chaos Manipulation is an application of said power.
On the other hand I think that superpowers like Petrification, Paralysis Inducement, Corrosion Inducement and, maybe, Alternate Future Display could be explained as Status Effect Inducement. I'm not saying the superpowers should be written in the Status Effect Inducement page but reduced as a large parenthesis explaining the status caused. The problem is that is going to be a large rework and maybe it won't be well viewed.
Well, I just wanted to give my opinion regarding some things I've read here.
Thank you, Ant.
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Mr. Bambu
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in any case, I'm off to bed, so I suppose it falls to someone else to help Dread out when she's ready anyways. may as well be you.
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I do not remember talking with you about this. Can you link to it please?
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Thanks for reminding, will work on them now
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I have merged them, and handled with redirects.
Mr. Bambu
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I've re-locked them.
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I agree about merging rage power and awakened power into statistics amplification, time stop with time manipulation, and sense manipulation with perception manipulation.
I disagree about merging morality manipulation with mind manipulation, or merging crystal manipulation and sand manipulation with earth manipulation.
I am neutral about merging madness manipulation with mind manipulation.
I also disagree with removing aura, chaos manipulation, ectoplasm manipulation, and blessed, but am uncertain about breath attack.
Please carefully list all of the views by other staff members case-by-case as well. Thank you.
Should we reduce how many Power pages we have?
I'm actually not sure about Crystal manip being merged tbh, I feel manipulating soil is usually not treated the same way as being able to produce or control crystals
Should we reduce how many Power pages we have?
I assume by merging rage power with statistics amplification we’re just adding it as a sub category for that page? Well, a sub-section of that page, yes. If so I’m fine with it given they normally function different than normal stat amping abilities. Sense Manipulation merging with perception...
So about this...
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After reviewing the entire thread, it appears that there are no outstanding tasks or actions required. All the accepted proposals have been successfully incorporated, and the remaining suggested abilities for merging have been dismissed. In light of this, I believe it's appropriate to conclude and close the thread.
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Did you handle all of this already?
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According to awakened power description;
It seems they don't match with statistics amplification, as they are uncontrollable.
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Well, it is still a form of statistics amplification, so wouldn't it be better to just create a new Rage Power section in the Statistics Amplification page?
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I am aware of how to do this, but we are now establishing that statistics amplification can be used unconsciously. This sounds to me a new standard, don't we require more opinions on this?
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