Shirou vs Kiritsugu (4-4-0)

[Nicetoderp]

Yes and Caliburn speed tier are higher than that. So it really won't be enough to catch up to him.

Also, Shirou stand up after getting cut in half by Gilgamesh. A bullet to the chest ain't shit.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also yes, Kiritsugu does indeed blitz Shirou's Massively Hypersonic. Just checked some things and if it's a blitz difference then yes, it does indeed blitz under speed equal.

 

[Nicetoderp]

How would Kiritsugu blitz when Shirou with Caliburn match Berserker and Gil?

Kerry with Triple Accel barely kept up with Kirei, and Servant like Saber and Gil are simply just much faster. And above all else, that isn't speed equal. Shirou base speed himself is better than Kerry via actually reacting to other Servant's attack, admittedly he narrowly able to dodge the attack.

 

[Rez]

Yeah kiritsugu isn't blitzing

 

[Vietthai96]

No one blitzing other, both have speed amp. No one one-shot each other, this is a stamina battle, who gave out first will lose

 

[Nicetoderp]

Stamina battle? Against Shirou Emiya? I know who my money is on.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Voting Shirou FRA

 

[Phoenks]

counted

 

[Phoenks]

No one blitzing other, both have speed amp. No one one-shot each other, this is a stamina battle, who gave out first will lose

Not true. One origin bullet wins the fight here. Not only can Shirou literally not function without his nerves in tact, but he wouldn't be able to wield caliburn.


One attack from Shirou would also result in Kiri's death. So yeah, this is essentially a one-shot battle.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Not enough to incap as kayneth took one and was still able to go on it was the second that finished him and Shirou ***** his nerve at daily basis

One bullet literally brought Kayneth to deaths door instantly, and he only lived because his servant saved him and he got immediate healing. Even with that he was permanently crippled. Kerry only used an Origin round on him once, he was conditioning him to land it before that

Which brings us to another issue for Shirou, the origin bullet destroys the person's ability to do magecraft since it irreparably messes up their circuits. In addition, if Shirou did deflect it, that'd activate it, because his projections are made with his magic, we've been shown that contacting something with the person's mana is enough (Kerry being surprised that hitting the black keys wasn't enough, hitting Kayneth's pet, etc). The only reason Kirei was able to block with the black keys is because he was using the command spells instead of his magic. Shirou even batting away 1 origin round would have the same effect as getting hit with it.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Which brings us to another issue for Shirou, the origin bullet destroys the person's ability to do magecraft since it irreparably messes up their circuits. In addition, if Shirou did deflect it, that'd activate it, because his projections are made with his magic, we've been shown that contacting something with the person's mana is enough (Kerry being surprised that hitting the black keys wasn't enough, hitting Kayneth's pet, etc). The only reason Kirei was able to block with the black keys is because he was using the command spells instead of his magic. Shirou even batting away 1 origin round would have the same effect as getting hit with it.

Highly doubt it. While created via his Magecraft, it is as close to the real deal as Noble Phantasm as it can possibly get. And unlike other Projection, Shirou's doesn't shown sign of degradation. To say that Shirou's Projection would interact the same way as Keyneth does is very sus.

Combine this with his (admittedly underdevelop) Mind Eyes, Artoria Skill and the fact that he has already deal with better Danmaku from Gilgamesh, massive stamina advantage. Shirou hold most of the cards here.

One bullet literally brought Kayneth to deaths door instantly, and he only lived because his servant saved him and he got immediate healing. Even with that he was permanently crippled. Kerry only used an Origin round on him once, he was conditioning him to land it before that

And guess who's the man that stand up after having his body being bisected into two. Nevermind that Shirou himself can also project Avalon and use its ability here unlike Kerry who can only use the passive healing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Highly doubt it. While created via his Magecraft, it is as close to the real deal as Noble Phantasm as it can possibly get. And unlike other Projection, Shirou's doesn't shown sign of degradation. To say that Shirou's Projection would interact the same way as Keyneth does is very sus.

That doesn't matter though. The issue is that they both involve the mana of the creator, this is also the case for Shirou's despite being better at projection than others because of UBW, he's still projecting them using his mana, that's the only part which matters, as that's the method the origin round works through.

Combine this with his (admittedly underdevelop) Mind Eyes, Artoria Skill and the fact that he has already deal with better Danmaku from Gilgamesh, massive stamina advantage. Shirou hold most of the cards here.

Again, none of this matters because if he deflects a bullet, which is the most likely case, he loses the fight.

And guess who's the man that stand up after having his body being bisected into two. Nevermind that Shirou himself can also project Avalon and use its ability here unlike Kerry who can only use the passive healing.

This also doesn't matter, he was nearly cut in two and managed to start to regen sure, this doesn't mean he would he fine after having his nerves and circuits destroyed, especially since this happen would hamper his ability to heal at all. Sure Shirou can project Avalon but the only way that helps him is if you're arguing he projects and activates it each time Kerry shoots, for the chance that one is an origin round (which he knows nothing about in Stay Night as far as we know)

 

[Phoenks]

Paul said I can count his responses as a vote.

So that's one more for Kerry.

 

[Rez]

One bullet literally brought Kayneth to deaths door instantly, and he only lived because his servant saved him and he got immediate healing. Even with that he was permanently crippled. Kerry only used an Origin round on him once, he was conditioning him to land it before that

One bullet fired when kayneth was using his circuits to the absolute limits. Kayneth has way better circuits then Shirou and Shirou used to damage his nerves on daily basis that's how he did his "training" and Shirou's projection is more akin to summoning once the weapon is treaced it's stored within ubw.

 

[Rez]

That doesn't matter though. The issue is that they both involve the mana of the creator, this is also the case for Shirou's despite being better at projection than others because of UBW, he's still projecting them using his mana, that's the only part which matters, as that's the method the origin round works through.

Also the bullet's effect on kayneth only started when they hit him not the volume hydra something

 

[Paul_Frank]

Also the bullet's effect on kayneth only started when they hit him not the volume hydra something

Incorrect, Kayneth entrapped the bullet in Volumen and it didn't reach him, it only hit the mystic code itself. The bullet that hit his body was the regular contender shot earlier in the fight that punched through the weaker Volumen

One bullet fired when kayneth was using his circuits to the absolute limits. Kayneth has way better circuits then Shirou and Shirou used to damage his nerves on daily basis that's how he did his "training" and Shirou's projection is more akin to summoning once the weapon is treaced it's stored within ubw.

I wouldn't necessarily say using them to the absolute limit, but he was putting more mana into it yes, but that part doesn't doesn't matter here. Regardless of how good your circuits are, you're going to he messed up by the round. Sure you can try to say it wouldn't be instant death, but it might as well be considering your number of circuits isn't going to stop the severing and binding from just destroying them.

The way that part works is it servers the circuits and rebinds them incorrectly, since they're "fixed" it's basically impossible to repair, but more importantly, when the energy still tries to flow through them despite this, it destroys the circuits. Your number of circuits doesn't make this part more or less effective, only the necrosis and nerve damage part.

Shirou being able to damage his nerves on a daily basis is cool and all, but we're talking about an amount of damage that took someone who was likely Touko, or at the least someone near her level, to be able to even attempt to fix, and even then only the hands were partially fixed. You could say Shirou wouldn't take this much damage sure, but simply saying he messed up his own nerves isn't really good enough. Ignoring the physical and nerve damage part, the issue then becomes that Shirou's ability to use magic just dies if he's affected by the round. In which case he has quite literally no way to survive anything Kerry does anymore.

Shirou's projection is still projection, it's just done in a slightly different way so that the World doesn't crush the projections for being things that don't exist otherwise. Once he first projects something, it's stored inside of UBW, this then allows him to project it at any time afterwards as they're registered using UBW, which bypasses the degradation. Every step of the process requires still requires his mana, even the projection of the item into reality still takes mana, it's just less than making an entire functional weapon from scratch would be (which is to say it's an amount that doesn't just kill someone). With this in mind he would indeed be affected if the round touches a projection

 

[Rez]

Shirou's projection is still projection, it's just done in a slightly different way so that the World doesn't crush the projections for being things that don't exist otherwise. Once he first projects something, it's stored inside of UBW, this then allows him to project it at any time afterwards as they're registered using UBW, which bypasses the degradation. Every step of the process requires still requires his mana, even the projection of the item into reality still takes mana, it's just less than making an entire functional weapon from scratch would be (which is to say it's an amount that doesn't just kill someone). With this in mind he would indeed be affected if the round touches a projection

Once the weapon is projected Shirou doesn't need to keep supplying it with mana

 

[Phoenks]

Once the weapon is projected Shirou doesn't need to keep supplying it with mana

From what it seems it doesn't matter, since it's still connected to him.

 

[Rez]

From what it seems it doesn't matter, since it's still connected to him.

Not really once projected the weapons are their own thing. Which is why anyone can use his projections. Also kayneth was supplying his mana to the volume hydra something that's it worked. Also not to mention Shirou's magic circuits will be dormant after projecting caliburn since he doesn't really need them afterwards.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Once the weapon is projected Shirou doesn't need to keep supplying it with mana

I don't remember that part being said, but it sounds correct, however that doesn't help him as his magic is already in it. That's how projection works in general afterall. The difference between Shirou's and the normal one is that they aren't being actively crushed for being illusions.

Origin rounds work simply after being interfered with by magecraft

When Kiritsugu’s magecraft bullet is interfered by magecraft, the impact of the "Origin" within the bullet would affect all the way down to the Magic Circuits of the practitioner.

And in order to defend against it, you have to just not use magecraft at all

In order to avoid the damage of Kiritsugu’s magecraft bullets, one has to discard all magecraft and purely defend the bullet by physical means.

This is consistent with the fact that Kiritsugu and Kirei both seem to have expected it to work if it simply hit a black key. Black Keys are produced by running mana through the hilts (Bible pages) once, it's not a continuous thing, so it's simply a blade produced from mana, not one that has mana actively put into it constantly, and simply hitting that blade it was thought to be enough.

If you assume that's not enough despite the black key thing, any sort of reinforcement or anything of the sort does require more magic actively put into the object from him, and this is something Shirou almost always does. He also has the thing where he sometimes has the blueprints to project stored in his circuits already and stuff, this is to say, there's a pretty high chance that even if we say just hitting the person's mana isn't enough, that he'd still be affected since he's still using his circuits.

 

[Phoenks]

bump.

 

[Phoenks]

bump

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay

First off, objectively, Gun is better than sword. Because yes. Therefore Kiritsugu wins by being not obessed with blades and chooses the actual practical weapon lmao.

Also, I understand that tracing replicates the skill of the wielder. Yes, that's true, but I don't think Artoria has ever encountered a machine gun in her lifetime, her experience does not cover something like that at all. Shirou won't be able to counter something like that. All Kiritusugu has to do is kite with Accel. And no, Shirou cannot Caliblast, he's never shown doing that in like, the two showings I recall of him using Caliburn in the Fate Route.

SBA, so there's trees and all sorts of environment that Kiritsugu can use to his advantage with his speed. The strategies are endless. He can toss grenades as distractions, get away, and snipe Shirou from a long distance away- create explosive traps like he did against Kayneth or even just Max Accel Origin Round right off the bat

 

[Phoenks]

I'll count that as a vote for Kiritsugu.

 

[Phoenks]

Bump!

 

[Rez]

Okay

First off, objectively, Gun is better than sword. Because yes. Therefore Kiritsugu wins by being not obessed with blades and chooses the actual practical weapon lmao.

Also, I understand that tracing replicates the skill of the wielder. Yes, that's true, but I don't think Artoria has ever encountered a machine gun in her lifetime, her experience does not cover something like that at all. Shirou won't be able to counter something like that. All Kiritusugu has to do is kite with Accel. And no, Shirou cannot Caliblast, he's never shown doing that in like, the two showings I recall of him using Caliburn in the Fate Route.

SBA, so there's trees and all sorts of environment that Kiritsugu can use to his advantage with his speed. The strategies are endless. He can toss grenades as distractions, get away, and snipe Shirou from a long distance away- create explosive traps like he did against Kayneth or even just Max Accel Origin Round right off the bat

6-C durability with caliburn. Machine guns are useless only origin bullet matters.

 

[thesurvivlist]

I'm voting for Shirou since Kerry's origin bullets shouldn't work against Shirou's projections.

Okay

First off, objectively, Gun is better than sword. Because yes. Therefore Kiritsugu wins by being not obessed with blades and chooses the actual practical weapon lmao.

Also, I understand that tracing replicates the skill of the wielder. Yes, that's true, but I don't think Artoria has ever encountered a machine gun in her lifetime, her experience does not cover something like that at all. Shirou won't be able to counter something like that. All Kiritusugu has to do is kite with Accel. And no, Shirou cannot Caliblast, he's never shown doing that in like, the two showings I recall of him using Caliburn in the Fate Route.

SBA, so there's trees and all sorts of environment that Kiritsugu can use to his advantage with his speed. The strategies are endless. He can toss grenades as distractions, get away, and snipe Shirou from a long distance away- create explosive traps like he did against Kayneth or even just Max Accel Origin Round right off the bat

Depends, if Machine guns can be considered as bows and the bullets as arrows. If so, Artoria's experience should be able to cover it and I believe it should do so as machine guns, can be considered as fast automated bow and and arrows.

 

[Phoenks]

Vote counted

 

[Phoenks]

Is this currently grace for inconclusive? I forget how it works

 

[Smashtwig]

Yes, 6-C dura with caliburn, if he can block em all

As for that, that’s some Fate level equivalancy BS, literally anything can just “be arrows”. Even punching can be arrow, or Madara throwing a giant meteor can be an arrow, or Aizen’s Kyoka Suigetsu can be an arrow, or T-Posing can be an arrow. Oh wait this is Fate/ ****

If they r both 7-7 it can be incon I think

 

[Rez]

Yes, 6-C dura with caliburn, if he can block em all

The 6-C durability isn't just for caliburn it's for Shirou himself too

 

[Phoenks]

durability doesn't even matter here lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, Origin Bullets pretty much neg durability lol

 

[thesurvivlist]

Yeah, Origin Bullets pretty much neg durability lol

Yea but Kiritsugu won’t know that the only thing he can that will be effective is his origin bullets and that Shirou projection of caliburb Will give him Artoria’s experience,

Kiritsugu would need intel on shirou before he can decide the best way to kill Shirou.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yea but Kiritsugu won’t know that the only thing he can that will be effective is his origin bullets and that Shirou projection of caliburb Will give him Artoria’s experience,

Kiritsugu would need intel on shirou before he can decide the best way to kill Shirou.

Shirou isn't one for dodging a bullet, he'd opt to swat it out of the air with a sword and gets his magic circuits nuked for it

 

[Vietthai96]

Why Kiri don't know, first he known Shirou is a magi, second only a couple of exchanging bullets he will know that he need his special bullet

 

[HammerStrikes219]

One bullet literally brought Kayneth to deaths door instantly, and he only lived because his servant saved him and he got immediate healing. Even with that he was permanently crippled. Kerry only used an Origin round on him once, he was conditioning him to land it before that

Just want to point out, he actually used two origin bullets, not just one

 

[Paul_Frank]

Just want to point out, he actually used two origin bullets, not just one

The first contender round is just a normal bullet, he used it to make Kayneth realize he can't just defend against a bullet that big without trying. This is clear from a few things, Firstly, Kayneth's only adverse reactions being well, stuff from a bullet of that caliber going through you, whereas origin rounds don't actually cause bleeding or external wounds if it contacts a body, merely causing the necrosis, nerve and circuit death.

Kayneth was also explicitly victim to the 38th bullet, not the 38th and 39th, and the precious 37 had all killed one magi each. So all in all, no, it was a single origin round used.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The first contender round is just a normal bullet, he used it to make Kayneth realize he can't just defend against a bullet that big without trying. This is clear from a few things, Firstly, Kayneth's only adverse reactions being well, stuff from a bullet of that caliber going through you, whereas origin rounds don't actually cause bleeding or external wounds if it contacts a body, merely causing the necrosis, nerve and circuit death.

Kayneth was also explicitly victim to the 38th bullet, not the 38th and 39th, and the precious 37 had all killed one magi each. So all in all, no, it was a single origin round used.

Oh, okay, then.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I don't think Avalon can restore nerve damage and necrosis/spiritual/mana destruction stuff

About this part, Avalon never shown to restore nerve damage and mana destruction.