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Shinza Banshou Downgrade

I'm just going to point out that Methuselah is ranked on the same level of power as Archedemons, who should have at least tier 5 feats, so...
 
I'm just going to point out that Methuselah is ranked on the same level of power as Archedemons, who should have at least tier 5 feats, so...
Beings in the same category have a certain gap between them iirc.
 
I'm just going to point out that Methuselah is ranked on the same level of power as Archedemons, who should have at least tier 5 feats, so...
It just means that Methuselah is one rank stronger than the members of the previous rank, nothing proves that all people in a rank have the same amount of power. In fact, the Archedemons themselves have different powers, for example, Khvarenah and Bahlavan are much more powerful than the other Archedemons, or the members of the Yatsukahagi are in the same rank, but Tenma Ootake and Tenma Sakuna are stronger than the others.

If we want to assume that everyone in the same rank has the same amount of power then we have to give all Archedemons and Fallen Angels and Yatsukahagi 3-B even Tenma Numahime and Tenma Momiji. And this is despite the fact that they are from different worlds and have different feats too.

This is the worst kind of scaling I have ever seen on this site.
 
Methuselah is also low 5-B via chain reaction hax under certain conditions. So even if we use that logic, there is no problem.

Of course, I'm still not sure if we should use this feat or not, because it only happens when one side of the planet is not yet morning and there is no sunlight.
 
Ok, since you're gonna act like we're just ignoring you and your arguments
It seems that some people do not understand the issue, so let me explain again

There are currently only two ways to prove that every night is low 5-B or 5-B

1. That every night equals the destruction of half the earth. This is completely wrong because Methuselah can only destroy the earth through chain reaction hax

Now it has been said that Methuselah can crumble the earth by removing his darkness, but this is only some very specfic and contidional hax and is created by removing his darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come and turning them into an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned. I do not think we can even use the 5B through hax because this hax is highly dependent on the situation and specfic conditions.

It was also repeated in the japanese scan that Methuselah destroys the earth only by removing all darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come, creating a non-dual state and ruining the relationship between yin and yang.


2. That every night contains everything in half the earth plus its density. This is not said anywhere and is completely illogical, because every night is only half the darkness of the earth and not anything on earth like density. Methuselah is only concept of darkness not concept of matter or planet

Methuselah's high density means his high durability, arcane, power and ... basically Methuselah's powerful existence and the amount of this density is completely unknown. You might say that every night adds a certain amount of density to Methuselah's existence, but the amount of this density is completely unknown and nowhere is it said to be equal to the density of half a planet and this is completely illogical and contradicts whole novel.
1: that's made up by you. There is no part where it says he can "only" destroy the planet by doing that. Him doing that is literally just him moving without specifically keeping all that darkness in place. This is the equivalent of brushing against someone and having them pop like a balloon.

2: sure, we don't have any direct statement of the density of those nights... but density has literally never mattered for these sorts of statements, because for it to be different from the simplest interpretation would require it to be a very unusual and specific density. When someone is stated to be able to destroy a planet, you do not ask "but how do we know that planet is as dense as earth" because that's something neither side can actually argue with any degree of accuracy. That's like asking for confirmation that every single material affected in a fictional work is as dense as it is in real life, something that cannot be proven to any sufficient degree and is thus hand-waved because that's a pointless place to apply skepticism unless there's really weird shit going on.

like, think about it: what is the density required for those nights, while numbering in the novemdecillions, to equal a durability less than 3-A? Less than Low 5-B? Sure, you can give answers, but they are all complete and utter guesswork with zero basis in the verse whatsoever. You have to take this completely baseless leap in logic for your argument to be correct.
 
I understand what your op is saying, I understand what H73 and Paul was saying, I have my own knowledge of this information as a Masada fan myself, and I still DISAGREE WITH THIS THREAD AND REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY AND THINK I MYSELF PERSONALLY DON'T THINK YOU DEBUNKED ANYTHING, SO TAKE THE FACT I DISAGREE WITH THIS THREAD AND ACCEPT IT.

I'm sick of thread creator's and the opposition not accepting people who disagree with their opinions because they think that they have debunked it without any room for disagreement, and have to keep badgering and badgering and badgering people to explain why they disagree when a simple 'I don't think your side's evidence is convincing while the other's is' should be reason enough for people to form an opinion.
 
I understand what your op is saying, I understand what H73 and Paul was saying, I have my own knowledge of this information as a Masada fan myself, and I still DISAGREE WITH THIS THREAD AND REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY AND THINK I MYSELF PERSONALLY DON'T THINK YOU DEBUNKED ANYTHING, SO TAKE THE FACT I DISAGREE WITH THIS THREAD AND ACCEPT IT.

I'm sick of thread creator's and the opposition not accepting people who disagree with their opinions because they think that they have debunked it without any room for disagreement, and have to keep badgering and badgering and badgering people to explain why they disagree when a simple 'I don't think your side's evidence is convincing while the other's is' should be reason enough for people to form an opinion.
******* THANK YOU!
 
I understand what your op is saying, I understand what H73 and Paul was saying, I have my own knowledge of this information as a Masada fan myself, and I still DISAGREE WITH THIS THREAD AND REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY AND THINK I MYSELF PERSONALLY DON'T THINK YOU DEBUNKED ANYTHING, SO TAKE THE FACT I DISAGREE WITH THIS THREAD AND ACCEPT IT.

I'm sick of thread creator's and the opposition not accepting people who disagree with their opinions because they think that they have debunked it without any room for disagreement, and have to keep badgering and badgering and badgering people to explain why they disagree when a simple 'I don't think your side's evidence is convincing while the other's is' should be reason enough for people to form an opinion.
kuuga-thumbs-up-kamen-rider-kuuga-thumbs-up.gif
 
1: that's made up by you. There is no part where it says he can "only" destroy the planet by doing that. Him doing that is literally just him moving without specifically keeping all that darkness in place. This is the equivalent of brushing against someone and having them pop like a balloon.
All the darkness would be torn away from the regions where it was far too early for morning to come. They would become an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned and then vanish

DUE TO THAT FACT
, the world could crumble if he merely let go of all restraint and traveled around the globe


It is quite clear that the reason for the crumbling the world is that he will remove his darkness in regions that are still too early for the morning and sunlight to come, so there will be neither light nor darkness in these regions, It turns these regions into a void without light and darkness and crumbles the world.

This is quite clearly a chain reaction hax under certain conditions, not attack potency, it is so obvious that I do not know why I have to explain.

It will also only scale to Methuselah himself too, not nights, so low 5-B nights, 5-A jaws of darkness and 3-A Methuselah are out the window.

You can get some *insert new tier" (insert reason), "low 5-B through removing all the darkness from the earth" at best. Nothing more. THIS IS CHAIN REACTION HAX NOT AP.

2: sure, we don't have any direct statement of the density of those nights... but density has literally never mattered for these sorts of statements, because for it to be different from the simplest interpretation would require it to be a very unusual and specific density. When someone is stated to be able to destroy a planet, you do not ask "but how do we know that planet is as dense as earth" because that's something neither side can actually argue with any degree of accuracy. That's like asking for confirmation that every single material affected in a fictional work is as dense as it is in real life, something that cannot be proven to any sufficient degree and is thus hand-waved because that's a pointless place to apply skepticism unless there's really weird shit going on.
I have said many times before that Methuselah is the concept of darkness and every night he adds half the darkness of the earth to himself and not everything in the half of the earth such as density. The fact that Methuselah's history is very dense means that every night adds an unknown amount of power / arcane / durability / density to him and he has a high existence / durablity / density. To say that every night contains everything in the half of the earth, such as density, is completely wrong and illogical, and it was never said.

I never said to prove that half the earth has a density equal to half the earth, I said to prove that every night has everything in the half of the earth such as density, because only then can you prove that every night is low 5-B. And that's not even the reason nights are low 5-B in Methuselah's profile right now. If you believe that every night should be low 5-B for that reason, then create a new revision thread.

The current reason every night is low 5-B in Methuselah's profile is this: A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet

And I debunked it a million times.

No one really reads the thread correctly, nor the scans, nor my words, and directly opposes downgrade or picks neutral. It might really be better for me to drop this thread and let half the tiers remain wrong forever.
 
All the darkness would be torn away from the regions where it was far too early for morning to come. They would become an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned and then vanish

DUE TO THAT FACT
, the world could crumble if he merely let go of all restraint and traveled around the globe


It is quite clear that the reason for the crumbling the world is that he will remove his darkness in regions that are still too early for the morning and sunlight to come, so there will be neither light nor darkness in these regions, It turns these regions into a void without light and darkness and crumbles the world.

This is quite clearly a chain reaction hax under certain conditions, not attack potency, it is so obvious that I do not know why I have to explain.

It will also only scale to Methuselah himself too, not nights, so low 5-B nights, 5-A jaws of darkness and 3-A Methuselah are out the window.

You can get some *insert new tier" (insert reason), "low 5-B through removing all the darkness from the earth" at best. Nothing more. THIS IS CHAIN REACTION HAX NOT AP.
And? This is just you repeating the feat and acting like it changes anything. Of course that's a ******* chain reaction-type feat, the scans for it basically say that verbatim and I never argued anything else, because that doesn't matter. At no point does it say that this is the only way he could destroy the earth, and that is my argument.
I have said many times before that Methuselah is the concept of darkness and every night he adds half the darkness of the earth to himself and not everything in the half of the earth such as density. The fact that Methuselah's history is very dense means that every night adds an unknown amount of power / arcane / durability / density to him and he has a high existence / durablity / density. To say that every night contains everything in the half of the earth, such as density, is completely wrong and illogical, and it was never said.

I never said to prove that half the earth has a density equal to half the earth, I said to prove that every night has everything in the half of the earth such as density, because only then can you prove that every night is low 5-B. And that's not even the reason nights are low 5-B in Methuselah's profile right now. If you believe that every night should be low 5-B for that reason, then create a new revision thread.

The current reason every night is low 5-B in Methuselah's profile is this: A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet

And I debunked it a million times.

No one really reads the thread correctly, nor the scans, nor my words, and directly opposes downgrade or picks neutral. It might really be better for me to drop this thread and let half the tiers remain wrong forever.
Then what density does it have? The assumption most people have evidently made is that "each night is half of the earth" equal "each night is Low 5-B". You must offer some alternative rating rather than just say "it's not Low 5-B". By that logic, someone could argue that the tier for each night is even higher, and that obviously makes no sense.

And again, density has never been a factor for reasons I have explained. This is just repeating the same thing over and over again and hoping to god that everybody who disagrees just gives up and leaves, something that seems especially clear with how you keep insulting people all the while. If you think we're not reading what you're saying, how about reading what we say for a second to actually understand our arguments? Maybe that'd help you convince us, rather than just piss everyone off.
 
So firstly, I would advise that you all keep it civil. It looks like it might be heating up here and it gets too bad I will close this.

Secondly,
Then what density does it have? The assumption most people have evidently made is that "each night is half of the earth" equal "each night is Low 5-B". You must offer some alternative rating rather than just say "it's not Low 5-B". By that logic, someone could argue that the tier for each night is even higher, and that obviously makes no sense.

And again, density has never been a factor for reasons I have explained. This is just repeating the same thing over and over again and hoping to god that everybody who disagrees just gives up and leaves, something that seems especially clear with how you keep insulting people all the while. If you think we're not reading what you're saying, how about reading what we say for a second to actually understand our arguments? Maybe that'd help you convince us, rather than just piss everyone off.
Just because someone does not offer an alternative to a current justification doesn't mean we should stick with the current justification. You don't need another answer to prove the current one wrong so to speak. That's why we allow unknown as a valid placement for tiers. And it also looks like there have been proposed alternatives to the current tiers given as well. I would advise you to drop that line of questioning and support and focus more on whatever else you have that supports the current ratings or that contradicts the proposed ones.
 
Just because someone does not offer an alternative to a current justification doesn't mean we should stick with the current justification. You don't need another answer to prove the current one wrong so to speak. That's why we allow unknown as a valid placement for tiers. And it also looks like there have been proposed alternatives to the current tiers given as well. I would advise you to drop that line of questioning and support and focus more on whatever else you have that supports the current ratings or that contradicts the proposed ones.
You do realize that he proposed to give Methuselah a new, definitive tier, which would require us to assume that nights are some insanely low "density" in order for it to work, right? Like, nothing you said here applies even slightly. I don't want to be rude or work myself up over this, because it's frankly not worth it, but I have to question if you actually read the OP first.
 
The OP doesn't require that you assume that the density of the nights is only 6-B or something isanely low, the OP instead chooses to ignore doing anything with the density of the nights and instead focuses on other means to get tiers. Yes I read the OP, so don't worry about questioning me, just worry about supporting your arguments.
 
And? This is just you repeating the feat and acting like it changes anything. Of course that's a ******* chain reaction-type feat, the scans for it basically say that verbatim and I never argued anything else, because that doesn't matter. At no point does it say that this is the only way he could destroy the earth, and that is my argument.
You know the reason all of Methuselah's current tiers are that some people think they are not chain reaction but attack potency, right?

Attack Potency: Varies, Small Planet level (A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet)

You just agreed with me that the whole Methuselah's tiering is wrong.

Then what density does it have? The assumption most people have evidently made is that "each night is half of the earth" equal "each night is Low 5-B". You must offer some alternative rating rather than just say "it's not Low 5-B". By that logic, someone could argue that the tier for each night is even higher, and that obviously makes no sense.

And again, density has never been a factor for reasons I have explained. This is just repeating the same thing over and over again and hoping to god that everybody who disagrees just gives up and leaves, something that seems especially clear with how you keep insulting people all the while. If you think we're not reading what you're saying, how about reading what we say for a second to actually understand our arguments? Maybe that'd help you convince us, rather than just piss everyone off.
Methuselah is the concept of darkness, not matter or planet, so every night contains only the darkness of half the planet. Why should we say that every night is equal to everything in half the planet and its density? this was never said in the novel and it is illogical and contradicts whole novel, because Methuselah is pure darkness, nothing more and whole novel was about a love story between Methuselah (Darkness) and Claudia (Light).

It has been said that Methuselah's history is dense, which only means that he is a very powerful existence with a high durability / density. We believe that Methuselah is in fact only 6-B+, which is also very dense against the 7-A attacks of commanders. Methuselah's nights are only strong, dense whatever you want to call it to a unknown amount, not more.

In fact, it was said in Dies Irae that when Ren reduced his own history to zero, only the accumulated time with him became zero, and Machina blows could no longer erase his existence, Because Machina's existence erasure is related to time accumulated, this also proves that history in Dies Irae is a metaphysical thing and unrelated to Attack Potency, Durability and etc. It was also said that when Methuselah possessed Ludvig, in fact, he stole his history as well and he became the owner of his whole existence which again proves that history is a metaphysical thing. Dense History = Powerful existence.

And again, the density you are talking about is not mentioned at all in Methuselah's profile, if you believe this density somehow makes every night low 5-B, then create a new revision thread. I debunked all the current justification for Methuselah's tiering, so this thread is really over.
 
Yes, but that doesn't mean you can apply something that has a solid even distribution among mods from agree disagree and neutral.
 
I do not intend to change anything, I just said that all Methuselah's current justification and tiering has been completely debunked, so this thread is over and it's time to notify the mods. If anyone has new justifications and tiering for Methuselah's nights then they should create a new revision thread.

Because the job of this thread was to debunk all the "current" tiering in the profile, not something that doesn't exist in profiles.
 
The thing about CRTs like this is that it is required to suggest and solidity another tier for the characters or get calcs done to do so.
 
So does anyone have a problem with this new tiering? as far as I could see, Tarang123 and Yuri had no problem with this

It was said that Gladsheim could reduce a country to ash and it was only a test of power, Gladsheim scales to Reinhard and Methuselah. We should calculate this feat but for now we can give it 6-B or 6-B+. Because it was only a test of power and even couldn't really damage Gladsheim and destroy one single soul of Gladsheim.

It was also said that Gladsheim energy was comparable to the most historic earthquakes in history, and that Gladsheim made this energy just by running. The strongest earthquake in history Valdivia Earthquake had a magnitude of 9.4-9.5. It is 6-B+ and consistent with last one.

Nvm valdivia earthquake happened in 1960 while the Interview with Kaziklu Bey happened around world war II so we can't scale Gladsheim's earthquake to valdivia earthquake but we can scale Gladsheim's earthquake to 1585 Aleutian Islands earthquake (Magnitude 9.25), 1730 Valparaíso earthquake (Magnitude 9.1-9.3), 1737 Kamchatka earthquake (Magnitude 9-9.3), still making Reinhard and Methuselah At least 6-B+, likely far higher. Because their power is much higher than that earthquake feat.

It was said that Methuselah darkened the sky, and it was a sign of a calamity, like a tsunami that could sink a entire continent, but that was cleary just a theory and vague. Because it said that sign of a calamity, "like" a tsunami. But no one knew what was really going to happen. Although maybe we should calculate this too?

So for now we can give Methuselah at least, 6-B+, likely far higher

Reinhard will be at least 6-B+, likely far higher too
 
I have no problem with 6-B+ if it's accepted by staff, but it hasn't been, so yeah lol.
 
I also announced several other mods, I hope they will be present in the thread.
 
Opposition: None. In fact, Hl3_or_bust accepted that this is chain reaction hax, not Attack Potency

This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. I said that the whole "him moving rips away all the darkness to destroy the planet" thing is a chain-reaction, because of course he's not exactly punching the earth. However, what I disputed was you saying that this is the ONLY way he destroy the planet, which is an outright fabrication on your part.

So, kindly stop ******* lying about what I say. This is your final warning.
 
This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. I said that the whole "him moving rips away all the darkness to destroy the planet" thing is a chain-reaction, because of course he's not exactly punching the earth. However, what I disputed was you saying that this is the ONLY way he destroy the planet, which is an outright fabrication on your part.

So, kindly stop ******* lying about what I say. This is your final warning.
Warning directly to you, please don't give warnings to other users. Also, don't accuse them of lying. Misrepresenting or not getting your point is fine and fair, but just because you're not both on the same page that doesn't mean the other is lying.
 
This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. I said that the whole "him moving rips away all the darkness to destroy the planet" thing is a chain-reaction, because of course he's not exactly punching the earth. However, what I disputed was you saying that this is the ONLY way he destroy the planet, which is an outright fabrication on your part.

So, kindly stop ******* lying about what I say. This is your final warning.
Or maybe he simply misinterpreted what you said. Calm down.
 
Warning directly to you, please don't give warnings to other users. Also, don't accuse them of lying. Misrepresenting or not getting your point is fine and fair, but just because you're not both on the same page that doesn't mean the other is lying.
Maybe do your job as a moderator and call someone out when they blatantly lie about what I said? This is not misrepresentation. You can see exactly what I said, and it's not what Infera said it was. So, you are wrong, Full stop.
 
Maybe do your job as a moderator and call someone out when they blatantly lie about what I said? This is not misrepresentation. You can see exactly what I said, and it's not what Infera said it was. So, you are wrong, Full stop.
Mate. Entire debates have happened on this site because someone read wrong a single line on a thread. It happens.
 
Mate. Entire debates have happened on this site because someone read wrong a single line on a thread. It happens.
And? Doesn't mean it shouldn't be pointed out and corrected when it happens.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and as shallow as that saying is it applies fully here.
 
Maybe do your job as a moderator and call someone out when they blatantly lie about what I said? This is not misrepresentation. You can see exactly what I said, and it's not what Infera said it was. So, you are wrong, Full stop.
Final Warning, get your act together or I'm reporting you. Take a break if you need to, but if you can't go about this respectfully, then you don't need to be involved with this discussion.
 
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