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Shinza Banshou downgrade
- Thread starter Darksmash
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Yeah my bad, got driven for a bit with the debate about Hajun
it doesn't affect what is going on here
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I mean shit that can very easily just be summarised as PIS as it was happening literally so the plot could happen as iirc was a major point in the story in stopping Hajun’s Law from literally deleting everything.
If you wanna say thats bad writing and Masada’s issue of using such powerful characters in the first place thats fine but that wouldnt take away the possibility of PIS.
No thats just the weird qualities of Mercs powers, if it was implied he could do it to Peak Hajun then id agree but its never implied like that, its only said that Merc has a slim possibility of deleting the possibility of Powerless Child Hajun from becoming a God.
At this point Pantheon is non-canon seeing as how it will literally never come out and also was Hajun not of the weakened Gods when he was brought back?
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I was half way through this when Zero posted to stop so I just finished it, ill drop it now or it can be moved somewhere else.
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Also nah, the Gods in the throne are the real deal brought back from the throne record by Naraka and it's Kouha's mission to copy them viz "pantehon" because the original gods can't leave because they are locked in a prison basically.
Kouha can't replicates the top tiers Hadou gods like Hajun and Muzan therefore their copies would be nerfed by default
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pantheon is irrelevant to this topic at all. We don't know the details of naraka and hajun and what is happening so there is no point to bringing hajun and muzan's scuffle when we don't know its details.
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Ah ok, I know there was something about a person not being able to fully summon some of the Gods I just couldn’t remember who.
Anyway yeah this is a discussion for another time.
Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
- 1,640
- Thread starter
- #128
My dude I am not saying singularity>throne. I am saying these things are not static in tier and rise along with the godhead. it is entirely possible that Hajun's singularity > Mithra's throne.
It has been repeatedly shown that singularity is either some canvas on which the gods paint, or a hole in the canvas. Whatever it is, it's not part of the painting. That's ludicrous considering the meta analogy that has been clearly presented again and again for the cosmology, where the singularity is a tear in the canvas itself and leads to deeper realms.
The never ending fall is clearly because of the throne god, not the singularity by itself. Hence it's not enough for High 1-A. At best it's just levels of 1-A.
Chasekilleen
He/Him- 432
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That Merc erasing Hajun shit is borderline retconned.
It says that the removal of the Tumor itself greatly weakened Hajun allowing Ren to halt Hajun and allowed time for Suigin to activate his Eigo-Kaiki Law to retcon Hajun and remove traces of Hajun from attaining Godhood.
The ending paragraph even says that the chances of Suigin performing that feat was astronomically close to zero.
Hajun getting weakened by the removal of Tumor has been retconned in the Pantheon prologue.
Ironically the Eastern Expedition still needed Hajun's Taikyoku to even defeat peak Tenma Yatou
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@Chasekilleen
可能性はゼロじゃなくても、天文学的確率。
It literally says that "The chance is not zero, however it's astronomically close to it"
The statement about Merc rectoning Hajun out of existence was in the flashback in the throne record to Hajun stomping everyone to earth, without his tumor Merc could fight him head on
Never denied that, but it still exist
可能性はゼロじゃなくても、天文学的確率。
It literally says that "The chance is not zero, however it's astronomically close to it"
Masada recton almost everytime he write a sequel it's annoying
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I enjoy Masada’s writing but he honestly does seem to recton or change cosmology stuff constantly.
The DI Cosmology and K3 Cosmology have pretty big differences.
The DI Cosmology and K3 Cosmology have pretty big differences.
Chasekilleen
He/Him- 432
- 360
I agree that Hajun's Taikyoku is not infinite since it constantly rises.
But hey hopefully Senshinkan won't be as bad in the future.
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Yeah ive never gotten the Infinite Taiji thing, hes Immeasurable/Not Countable while infinitely rising.
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No lol what? It was explicitly stated they wouldn't have crossed it if it wasn't for Yato and the shit that spiraled down to Hajun downfall
Also lol at "Merc could fight him head on"
When a ******* tumorless Hajun killed Marie, Ren and Reinhard and left Merc at death bed.
The statement you're talking about is severly out of context and you're pulling shit your ass. As a matter of fact, most people here are, no surprise though considering no one here finished Dies irae properly (you know yourself) or didn't read KKK but speaks as if he know every shit about it (again, you know yourself).
Or did you watch those videos on youtube and think you finally know shit? then congratulations, you just watched a machine translated KKK
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All of these realms don't mean anything as the point is yes the gods need to overpower the deity to truly cross to the throne and nothing really contradicts this. It's part of the possession of the throne god which we also have to note that everything in creation is a part of said god anyway. Everything they paint over is a part of them by default and last i checked because they paint that setting with their color (taiji> throne >>>>> singularity as we know).
I srsly don't know where we are going with this because none of the realms inside the singularity are above the gods anyway. They fall endlessly as they can't reach the godhead at all with Yakou confirming the stronger the god the deeper it gets.
Let's just ignore pantheon and whatever is going to happen cuz as far as we know nothing is coming out of it.
I srsly don't know where we are going with this because none of the realms inside the singularity are above the gods anyway. They fall endlessly as they can't reach the godhead at all with Yakou confirming the stronger the god the deeper it gets.
Let's just ignore pantheon and whatever is going to happen cuz as far as we know nothing is coming out of it.
Chasekilleen
He/Him- 432
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Since when was this stated??
In the VFB of KKK it says the complete opposite lol.
Like what SleepyBubble said
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It's like Shinza fans from 3 years ago can't help but be worthless scums who have to put shoes in their mouth every time they open their hole
Srsly ALRF, if you have anything to say try not to be a **** about it so we can have a normal talk or we can spend out time reporting each other k?
Hajun has nothing to do with DI as he didn't even exist back when Masada released the game, it's all shit that exist in KKK, which yeah most of us including me didn't get the chance to read it because it's so niche even in Japan we can't anyone to translate it. Otherwise we wouldn't have this shitshow where people act like trash cuz they read extra 30 hours of a VN in moon runes only
As far I know the alternative to Hajun's fight was that the tumor is removed and the three colors ends up defeating him although at the cost of their own life
How the fight exactly goes including it details is never bought up, only thing we know Hajun is defeated are rest is history until Merc hit the reset button
I assumed that Merc would fight him on because Hajun's tumor was always the one thing brought up when discussing how the fight went how is diverge
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oh don't worry i'll be an asshole (more like blunt but sure if it makes you see me in such a way) everytime someone spouts shit here
because i got enough of it already from dealing with it 3 years ago
because i got enough of it already from dealing with it 3 years ago
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Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
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- Thread starter
- #143
I was merely going off of what Red said, however that doesn't affect the main part of my argument. It may not exactly work like that, but them not being able to drill through the singularity clearly seems mainly because of the involvement of the throne god in some form or another.
I mean its not like people who don't know japanese can read KKK. It doesn't mean we cannot contest the information presented. If it's in an unknown language then the people who are knowledgeable should be willing to clarify doubts. Considering Masadaverse's status on the wiki it's bound many people will hype some things and misunderstand some things. The line between facts and hype gets blurred. It's bound to happen when untranslated stuff is allowed on the wiki.
See, we seem to be in agreement. To the point I am not even sure why we are arguing. Since the Gods with lower taikyoku cannot cross the singularity when the ruling god is backing it, they clearly should not scale above it.
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Not even defending considering i didn't even say i agree or disagree with the downgrades.
In fact, i never even defended or participated in any revision in this wiki since like, i dunno, two years now? I certainly wasn't part of the high tier 1-a revision and the only thing i did was give some minor fixes on translation.
My presence here is clear and cut, anyone who says shit that makes no sense, i'll call them out
If i am being too blunt, i am sorry that you were offended but, you, nonetheless, pulled shit out of nowhere
https://togetter.com/li/43570
Hajun was actually hinted at from an Acta Est Fabula QnA. And Satanael was already confirmed to be a thing by that point.So, yeah, Hajun WAS ACTUALLY a thing since DI and had to do with DI
In fact, i never even defended or participated in any revision in this wiki since like, i dunno, two years now? I certainly wasn't part of the high tier 1-a revision and the only thing i did was give some minor fixes on translation.
My presence here is clear and cut, anyone who says shit that makes no sense, i'll call them out
If i am being too blunt, i am sorry that you were offended but, you, nonetheless, pulled shit out of nowhere
https://togetter.com/li/43570
Hajun was actually hinted at from an Acta Est Fabula QnA. And Satanael was already confirmed to be a thing by that point.So, yeah, Hajun WAS ACTUALLY a thing since DI and had to do with DI
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No, you both need to grow up and talk like adults. Stop being aggressive to each other. Take a step back and come back later once you are willing to contribute like grown ups. Incendiary comments from this point on are getting deleted.
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Zero, you've been told to stop.
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Meh, you can track back my comments record, I didn't attack or insult anyone or even used any harsh word.
I just hate when people are super aggrieve for no reason.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
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You've been told to stop.If you gonna make defending Masada's chunni work your life mission then by all means ~
Wish you would do more with your passion than being an asshole about it though
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I agree with Tony and TISSG7Redgraves counters....
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Have the people agreeing with the downgrade actually read the previous threads or blogs that got the upgrades in the first place, and contain all the scans? If not, I'd say they probably should considering those have all the relevant scans translated by people and not machines.
The op is basically just looking at a few lines from the old threads and giving different interpretations of them based on extremely limited knowledge considering they have admitted they didn't even finish DI, and have just translated a few passages from KKK. Considering most people here won't read KKK themselves, I recommend at least reading the previous threads and blogs and stuff so you can have a more complete understanding of what actually got the upgrade, and what the downgrade is going against.
The op is basically just looking at a few lines from the old threads and giving different interpretations of them based on extremely limited knowledge considering they have admitted they didn't even finish DI, and have just translated a few passages from KKK. Considering most people here won't read KKK themselves, I recommend at least reading the previous threads and blogs and stuff so you can have a more complete understanding of what actually got the upgrade, and what the downgrade is going against.
Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
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- Thread starter
- #155
The same thing could be twisted to say there is a serious problem to be discussed when there is stuff that is questionable even when we are only presented with a questionably selected and handpicked set of scans and arguments without having any context over what they mean in the verse. Besides, clearly both agreements and disagreements have a fair share of blind votes, so I don't think pointing that out is necessary, especially when you only call out one side.
(btw none of my major arguments have been countered yet. Just Saying)
(btw none of my major arguments have been countered yet. Just Saying)
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leaning on the downgrade side for now
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I think that argument by side of the. degradation makes sense
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Hajun's taikyouku isn't infinite. It is described as "constantly rising" which proves it is finite, but immeasurable as its always growing in number.
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I don't think we are on the same page here in some way cuz its just they cannot reach the throne yes. They can cross it but have to get to the deity otherwise would fall endlessly and never reach the god for not being the same taiji wouldn't let them challenge the godhead.
Also I sort of remembering what DLK said about the explainations
"If I understand correctly, then you want to represent the cosmological structure in this way:
- Dimensional hierarchy
- Singularity depth (Ðüorresponds to the inner depth of any God on the throne, including Hajun, and therefore can be an infinite hierarchy) - starts from 1-A
- Throne (base for Gods) - starts from high 1-A
- Taikyoku/Taiji hierarchy - various degrees of high 1-A up to infinity/"close" to tier 0"
I feel like the main problem is the singularity here but again the throne itself would always be above the singularity and any expansion of the cosmology it just the godhead would not make it possible to do such a thing as of proper.
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This has already been discussed multiple times, its straight up listed as both Not Countable and Immeasurable not simply for ever rising its just to high for the Taiji system to properly understand however that is still not infinite so obviously anyone that says his Taiji is infinite are incorrect.
The only thing ive seen mentioned as Infinite for Hajun in terms of his Taiji is that its infinitely rising but that means it will never actually reach Infinite.
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