Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

[PrinceofPein]

Nah, but it depends, I mean the video up there was when soujiro was stated to be cutting through dimensions to get to the throne in this context layers of the singularity to reach the throne

 

[PrinceofPein]

But you are right about one thing, there is a hierarchy here, a very deep one at that. But if it is 1A hierarchy is another matter entirely and would need more prove.
And merc saying they will.keep on falling and tearing whole and falling again infinitely kind of supports that the singularity has layers also

 

[Odinson]

That video didn't have a timestamp. At what part is that "cutting through dimensions" mentioned ?

 

[PrinceofPein]

That video didn't have a timestamp. At what part is that "cutting through dimensions" mentioned ?

Around 33 mins or so, I can't remember but I will.check through it later on

 

[Everything12]

I mean the 1-A is more that the Heaven's are confirmed to have Higher Dimensions based off Kajiri Kamui Kagura and Paradise Lost, and they are confirmed to have superiority over Lower Dimensions (aka Tier 1). Meanwhile the Singularity, Throne, and Gods are all above that with the Singularity having the Multiverse at its bottom floor.

 

[Darksmash]

you were the part of the people who said the verse should not be deleted, now you will have to live with it.
and Yuri is not the only supporter, i am one too and nah the verse stays i just put in hours of work into it and now you want to axx it?

I don't recall ever saying it shouldn't be deleted though?

 

[Odinson]

Around 33 mins or so, I can't remember but I will.check through it later on

But that video is from when Yakou dived inside the Singularity in incognito mode. Soujirou doesn't even have his scenes there.

 

[Darksmash]

cutting through dimensions to get to the throne in this context layers of the singularity to reach the throne

Are you sure that's enough to prove these layers are transcendent dimensions? Cutting could also be synonymous with drilling, just an act of going deeper into the singularity. Unless there is more stuff of course

And merc saying they will.keep on falling and tearing whole and falling again infinitely kind of supports that the singularity has layers also

Except those layers wouldn't be transcendent based on that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I mean the 1-A is more that the Heaven's are confirmed to have Higher Dimensions based off Kajiri Kamui Kagura and Paradise Lost, and they are confirmed to have superiority over Lower Dimensions (aka Tier 1). Meanwhile the Singularity, Throne, and Gods are all above that with the Singularity having the Multiverse at its bottom floor.

Oh so basically you are saying heavens are superior to and disconnected from the multoverse, and the heavens also have layers
then yes i can see your reasoning here

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't recall ever saying it shouldn't be deleted though?

sorry i vaguely remembered you agrreeing with people who dont want it to be deleted

Are you sure that's enough to prove these layers are transcendent dimensions? Cutting could also be synonymous with drilling, just an act of going deeper into the singularity. Unless there is more stuff of course

no this would be wrong, yakou did the drilling, soujiro and shiori cut through it, soujiro and shiori is a weaker god than yakou,

Except those layers wouldn't be transcendent based on that.

yes when they stand alone, add the other stuffs from K3 and PL to it and you are good to go, Heavens do have layers so does singularity

 

[Darksmash]

yes when they stand alone, add the other stuffs from K3 and PL to it and you are good to go, Heavens do have layers so does

Well I didn't really catch what you are saying, but I guess I will just wait for your CRT

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well I didn't really catch what you are saying, but I guess I will just wait for your CRT

what i am saying is that, all throughout the series, heaven/singularity have been shown to have layers, whether it works on dimensional transcendence level is not really known, but one thing that is sure is that even if the taikyoku difference is 1, a lower god will just keep on drilling through the layers and breaking through each one in a manner that is similar to falling forever and never reach the higher one

 

[Everything12]

Well Heaven's aren't disconnected from the multiverse, as the multiverse is part of the Heaven's, but considering the first three Heaven's were Universes only can't go calling them Multiverses. But the part about the rest of the Heavens (the Sinulairty, Throne, and Gods) being above the multiverse and its higher dimensions, yeah that what I'm getting at.

Basically the non-God stuff should be Tier 1 for having Higher Dimension, while the Singularity and all that stuff the Gods deal with should be 1-A and above for being outside all that.

 

[Odinson]

Oh so basically you are saying heavens are superior to and disconnected from the multoverse, and the heavens also have layers
then yes i can see your reasoning here

No, he's saying the heavens contains higher dimensions and singularity + throne are not connected to it, and remain unaffected by expansion on the heaven. The heaven can be as small as a single universe or as big as a high 1B structure, it wouldn't affect the nature of Singularity because singularity opens up after two gods clash and its nature remains the same and outside, completely beyond the changes done to the multiverse.

no this would be wrong, yakou did the drilling, soujiro and shiori cut through it, soujiro and shiori is a weaker god than yakou

The act of drilling, cutting just means falling down inside it. So I don't understand what you're saying here tbh. Or maybe it's my fault because your post was worded weirdly.

 

[Darksmash]

whether it works on dimensional transcendence level is not really known

Except this is the most important part though. Layers on their own don't mean anything. They can even refer to parallel dimensions(layered like a cake). And there is counter context to suggest that the singularity depths are higher dimensional. The analogy presented for it compares it to falling down a hole, and drilling a hole through the paper and going downwards, with the next step being compared to a "Blank Slate" and then going downwards in a similar manner by drilling. This doesn't indicate any transcendence, and can be used as counter context for it since going down isn't being equated with transcendence here and a Blank Slate doesn't transcend a paper.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The act of drilling, cutting just means falling down inside it. So I don't understand what you're saying here tbh. Or maybe it's my fault because your post was worded weirdly.

lol if soujiro and shiori were driliing they would fall for eternity, they bypaased the need to drill, they are weaker than yakou who when he tried drilling was unable to get to the throne

Except this is the most important part though. Layers on their own don't mean anything. They can even refer to parallel dimensions(layered like a cake). And there is counter context to suggest that the singularity depths are higher dimensional. The analogy presented for it compares it to falling down a hole, and drilling a hole through the paper and going downwards, with the next step being compared to a "Blank Slate" and then going downwards in a similar manner by drilling. This doesn't indicate any transcendence, and can be used as counter context for it since going down isn't being equated with transcendence here and a Blank Slate doesn't transcend a paper.

dont worry about this there are scans that turns and give them a likely rating, hence my likely rating. but yes the layers work in a transcendence method.
hajun singularity >>> yato >>>>> merc >>>> gods below them.
you get the gist now, hajun breaking through merc singularity will take only a breath time, while if merc tried to break through he will keep driling and would never reach hajun, the person he is facing is hajun not the singlarity. the singularity layers are a result of hajun strength

Well Heaven's aren't disconnected from the multiverse, as the multiverse is part of the Heaven's, but considering the first three Heaven's were Universes only can't go calling them Multiverses. But the part about the rest of the Heavens (the Sinulairty, Throne, and Gods) being above the multiverse and its higher dimensions, yeah that what I'm getting at.

Basically the non-God stuff should be Tier 1 for having Higher Dimension, while the Singularity and all that stuff the Gods deal with should be 1-A and above for being outside all that.

so you are advocating the singularity be a 1A space?

 

[Odinson]

lol if soujiro and shiori were driliing they would fall for eternity, they bypaased the need to drill, they are weaker than yakou who when he tried drilling was unable to get to the throne

I'll wait for tarang to reply to this. Because I don't know much about KKK. Haven't started reading it yet.

dont worry about this there are scans that turns and give them a likely rating, hence my likely rating. but yes the layers work in a transcendence method.
hajun singularity >>> yato >>>>> merc >>>> gods below them.
you get the gist now, hajun breaking through merc singularity will take only a breath time, while if merc tried to break through he will keep driling and would never reach hajun, the person he is facing is hajun not the singlarity. the singularity layers are a result of hajun strength

I mean I still don't undeystand why there are dimensional layers in the Singularity but I'll wait for tarang.

 

[Everything12]

Well it is complete outside the Higher Dimensions of the Non-God space...? Honestly I have no idea what term to use to apply to everything below the Singularity, Shinza only ever uses Multiverse, but the first three Thrones didn't have parallel worlds and all that, and our Tiering system places Higher Dimensions above Multiverses, so it's just confusing. One of the issues of how the Heaven's change their cosmology.

 

[Darksmash]

you get the gist now, hajun breaking through merc singularity will take only a breath time, while if merc tried to break through he will keep driling and would never reach hajun, the person he is facing is hajun not the singlarity. the singularity layers are a result of hajun strength

The issue is, this becomes severely confusing due to the fact that Gudou Gods can apparently cross the singularity.

 

[Odinson]

The issue is, this becomes severely confusing due to the fact that Gudou Gods can apparently cross the singularity.

Just going to point out something. The crew used the work Ren did beforehand as a leverage because without that they (gudō gods) wouldnt have ever had a mean to even reach hajun. Also, for some reason, you are treating Soujirou and Shiori as a norm, rather than an exception, which you shouldn't because they were special cases thanks to their Kagura. Not to mention Soujirou has his ultimate cutting phenomenon as Taikyoku (he himself is the cutter/sword), and shiori who can expand her possibility to infinite (I think tarang can expand on this because he's more knowledgeable than me).

Also, I don't agree with Pain and his reasons.

 

[Everything12]

Worded that really badly let's try again. It's because of how a Gudou Gods Law is internal not external it does not resist over God's Laws through pushing back and repainting it, but just remaining independent and unaffected by everything outside their world. Thus as they don't try to push and paint over the Throne God's Law, it itself doesn't push back. Add in they were using Yato's already drilled Hole through the Singularity and they had an easier time then the stronger Hadou God in reaching Hajun.

 

[Darksmash]

The crew used the work Ren did beforehand as a leverage because without that they (gudō gods) wouldnt have ever had a mean to even reach hajun.

That still doesn't help this argument. Since both their Taikyoku and Yato's Taikyoku were far below that of Hajun.

Also, for some reason, you are treating Soujirou and Shiori as a norm, rather than an exception, which you shouldn't because they were special cases thanks to their Kagura.

A norm hasn't been established in the first place. There was only a single hyperbolic instance of Merc's singularity appearing out of reach in Dies Irae, which is being used to establish a generalised norm for some reason. And your own comment above says that Yato's work is what allowed them to reach there in the first place.

Also, I don't agree with Pain and his reasons.

See, this is the main problem here. Since the verse is untranslated everyone just keeps saying their own thing with no consistency. Then you people blame others for debunking someone else based on what that someone said, just because your views don't happen to align with that someone in the first place.

Thus as they don't try to push and paint over the Throne God's Law, it itself doesn't push back.

This would in turn mean that the singularity depth being unreachable has nothing to do with its actual size, since it's only because of the direct involvement of the throne god.

 

[Everything12]

It still would have been unreachable normally, but in addition to Hajun not actively pushing the back they also had Yato's drilled hole to lead them to the Throne. In addition to that Yato was onl able to drill that hole because of Hajun being his usual self-absorbed self and even still the depth trivialised Mercurius' endless depth and seemed unreachable to Yato.

 

[Darksmash]

It still would have been unreachable normally, but in addition to Hajun not actively pushing the back they also had Yato's drilled hole to lead them to the Throne.

What does "normally" mean here?
If you are asserting that the depth itself is transcendent due to Taikyoku difference then it should have been utterly unreachable to both Yato and the Gudou Gods combined.

 

[Everything12]

Well it was. Yato described it as unreachable even after thousands of years solely drilling into its depths. Also they reached Hajun after Habaki had access to the Taikyoku value of the Teratoma.

 

[Darksmash]

Well it was. Yato described it as unreachable even after thousands of years solely drilling into its depths.

Then I don't understand why you tried to justify Gudou Gods being able to reach it due to their nature. In that case it would only scale to Hajun and Hajun alone.

 

[Everything12]

The reason Ren and Reinhard and Yato needed to drill through the Singularity was not because they needed to do so to travel through it, besides the Throne God pushing back, they needed to do so to break out of the endless depth and reach deeper depths to finally reach the Throne at the bottom. The act of drilling through the Singularity is to break through it and end the fall by reaching the Throne.

 

[Darksmash]

The reason Ren and Reinhard and Yato needed to drill through the Singularity was not because they needed to do so to travel through it, besides the Throne God pushing back, they needed to do so to break out of the endless depth and reach deeper depths to finally reach the Throne at the bottom. The act of drilling through the Singularity is to break through it and end the fall by reaching the Throne.

I don't get it. What's the difference between the two?

 

[Everything12]

You can travel inside the Singularity without difficulty once you meet the God requirements and if yoy you don't have to deal with the Throne God pushing you out, but you can't transverse into the deeper depths and out of the Singularity without drilling through it, otherwise you will just continue falling through the endless depths of the Singularity.

Basically the drilling isn't about travelling through, it's about making a exit.

You can travel wherever you want within a certain depth but you reach a limit of how far you can go if you don't have the strength to drill open a exit and reach Greater depths. With the final depth being exiting the Singularity and entering the Throne,

 

[Darksmash]

You can travel wherever you want within a certain depth but you reach a limit of how far you can go if you don't have the strength to drill open a exit and reach Greater depths. With the final depth being exiting the Singularity and entering the Throne,

Uhh, but everyone already knows that? Of course when someone says they are diving deeper in an ocean we wouldn't talk about how they can travel in the 4 directions freely at any depth.

 

[Tarang123]

At least Low Complex Multiverse level (Gods are higher dimensional beings that exists beyond the multiverse, with dimensions holding the same difference as the one between reality and fiction), likely Hyperverse level (Gods can pierce through the Singularity and its dimensional layers, including that of its center, where the Throne resides. While the amount of layers depends of the Throne God in place, Mercurius' stated that goingthrough the one under his heaven would be like "falling forever" while Hajun's was stated to be above the former, to the point of it only taking "the time a person would hold their breath" in comparison to the thousands of years Yato put drilling through it. Whether these dimensional layers works on a power is however left vague, since Soujirou and Shiori, two Gods below Yato, succeeded in breaching the last layer he didn't get through).


Then I will add the scans from.PL, I will find how I can incorporate it into this. But they become countless into 1B

I severely disagree with removing the barriers. Seriously, just use the morei example, no reason to remove that one.

 

[Tarang123]

That still doesn't help this argument. Since both their Taikyoku and Yato's Taikyoku were far below that of Hajun.



A norm hasn't been established in the first place. There was only a single hyperbolic instance of Merc's singularity appearing out of reach in Dies Irae, which is being used to establish a generalised norm for some reason. And your own comment above says that Yato's work is what allowed them to reach there in the first place.



See, this is the main problem here. Since the verse is untranslated everyone just keeps saying their own thing with no consistency. Then you people blame others for debunking someone else based on what that someone said, just because your views don't happen to align with that someone in the first place.



This would in turn mean that the singularity depth being unreachable has nothing to do with its actual size, since it's only because of the direct involvement of the throne god.

Yato does scale to metsujin Messo albeit only barely.

yato had already drilled through most of it, they just needed one last push.

I disagree, it being untranslated is honestly irrelevant.

the singularity being “unreachable” is because of size, what prevents the gods from going through, is the Throne God massively scaling above everyone.

min short, the size difference is definitely infinite, but the only main reason why gods can’t reach the bottom is because of the Throne God.

 

[Tarang123]

Uhh, but everyone already knows that? Of course when someone says they are diving deeper in an ocean we wouldn't talk about how they can travel in the 4 directions freely at any depth.

Thing is, this is the same yakou that can increase his hierarchy to reach higher planes of existence that are incomprehensible to lower planes.

 

[Tarang123]

Any god can “lol nope” the singularity, it’s just that they can’t bypass the final wall.

PS: almost all of the EE were amped when the singularity was pierced through.

 

[Darksmash]

Yato does scale to metsujin Messo albeit only barely.

This isn't accepted on the site. Yato's Taikyoku is accepted as far below Hajun.

I disagree, it being untranslated is honestly irrelevant.

It's quite relevant when no one actually knows what they are talking about.

the singularity being “unreachable” is because of size, what prevents the gods from going through, is the Throne God massively scaling above everyone.

You contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. If it is unreachable because of size then it being unreachable wouldn't have anything to do with the Throne God's involvement.

Thing is, this is the same yakou that can increase his hierarchy to reach higher planes of existence that are incomprehensible to lower planes.

You would have to prove:
1) what "incomprehensible" means here
2) He can stack this transcendence without any limits under any circumstances.

 

[Odinson]

Any god can “lol nope” the singularity, it’s just that they can’t bypass the final wall.

PS: almost all of the EE were amped when the singularity was pierced through.

Btw, do we know why Satanael used the sefirot and skipped the Singularity ? Is that because he wasn't strong enough to reach the Throne or what.

 

[Everything12]

The incomprehensible is talking about the Singularity and how any non-God who enters can't handle it.

His Sin was too great to reach Keter, so he had to either force his way through with Testament or Paradox himself free of Sin. Sin prevents humans from reaching the higher dimensions of the tree, while Angels who are free of Sin can freely mess with them and the Quintessence.

 

[Tarang123]

This isn't accepted on the site. Yato's Taikyoku is accepted as far below Hajun.

It's quite relevant when no one actually knows what they are talking about.


You contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. If it is unreachable because of size then it being unreachable wouldn't have anything to do with the Throne God's involvement.



You would have to prove:
1) what "incomprehensible" means here
2) He can stack this transcendence without any limits under any circumstances.

We know that his taikyoku is far below Hajun’s, but he held off metsujin messo for 8000 years, so he scales barely.

but people do know, tho. Some people did play it.

the depth change is likely infinite, but the practicality of it as in why gods can’t reach the bottom is because of the throne god.

the incomprehensible does seem to be transcendence due to his interaction with ryuusui. And yes, he seems to be able to.

 

[Tarang123]

Btw, do we know why Satanael used the sefirot and skipped the Singularity ? Is that because he wasn't strong enough to reach the Throne or what.

He didn’t want to fight muzan directly, but it’s likely due to him possessing sin.

 

[Tarang123]

The incomprehensible is talking about the Singularity and how any non-God who enters can't handle it.

His Sin was too great to reach Keter, so he had to either force his way through with Testament or Paradox himself free of Sin. Sin prevents humans from reaching 5he higher dimensions, while Angels who are free of Sin can freely mess with them and the Quintessence.

I was merely playing with words, it’s due to the fact they ryuusui can’t comprehend his true nature and he can do another step up.

I believe it’s because sin users can’t reach the gates of heaven. A near-perfect way to keep power.