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Shin Megami Tensei V Spoilers Discussion

It’s ******* weird how the main character is the only one who keeps his appearance as a nahobino, while the other nahobinos barely reflect what they used to look like.
 
I hope SMTV comes to PC too.

I didn't expect Lucifer's true form to be a "robot", but I guess its not something strange considering Metatron.
 
NeoZex6399 said:
I hope SMTV comes to PC too.

I didn't expect Lucifer's true form to be a "robot", but I guess its not something strange considering Metatron.
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Considering apocalypse’s YHVH being a polygonal, digital, mr clean looking-ass head, Not really a surprise he takes on a robotic appearance with similar features.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The Great Will still exists as per Tao and Sophia's statements, and the game heavily contradicts everything about prior games established lore. The whole game is a single universe with the only references to alternate realities being the statements of the Fiends confirming that they are from a universe.

And the cycle still exists, as determined by the will of the universe.

Also the Throne of God is obviously meant to be Kether, not something entirely higher like YHVH from Apocalypse is shown to be.
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What I don't get is Ascended Lucifer's mention of the Mandala System and transcending it. Which very much sounds like the Great Will's cycle of rebirth and destruction
 
Abu2411 said:
What I don't get is Ascended Lucifer's mention of the Mandala System and transcending it. Which very much sounds like the Great Will's cycle of rebirth and destruction
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The problem is that in the True Ending you can end the Mandala System by simply changing how the universe (singular) works. And if you destroy the Throne, Amitabha still exists showing he isn't bound to a single universe as a Buddha but you don't get to fight Lucifer at all as his power also comes from the Throne.
 
Yooo imagine if the dude transcended the cycle of the great will. Shit will be insane.

but like I said before, I think the Japanese dialogue will help here. I think milly said she bought both versions.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The problem is that in the True Ending you can end the Mandala System by simply changing how the universe (singular) works. And if you destroy the Throne, Amitabha still exists showing he isn't bound to a single universe as a Buddha but you don't get to fight Lucifer at all as his power also comes from the Throne.
Click to expand...
Ok, that seems to make sense somewhat but I'm still under the impression that the Mandala System is not limited to merely a single universe, but is rather about the axiom as a whole. This is just based on the explicit references to concepts in Apocalypse, particularly Observation in the form of Knowledge and how previous gods were debased into shadows of their former selves (echoes of Dagda's purpose) I don't see what Amithaba still existing would prove it is not the Great will's cycle as a whole?
 
My thoughts on the game now that I am in my third cycle. Despite the story not being top tier, everything else is absolutely amazing. I have not felt so addicted to a game in A long time, and I have yet to feel burned out. The game is actually fairly difficult for a SMT game, I had to beat it on easy mode first to get the hang of it. The exploration is the best it has ever been in a SMT game, although I believe the camera is to close to the nahobino and getting lost is way too easy in daat 3 and above.

So my only “disappointment”, (which not really, I just expected more) is the story, and everything else elevates it to an A+ game.

The nahobino is officially my favorite looking MC yet. I absolutely adore aogami as well.

I bought the DLC, cause I have the money for it, but to people who are thinking about it, just buy the fiends DLC, it is the only one worth the money. Or chose not too, as nothing of value is lost, but the Demi fiends essence is top notch.
 
Kinda sick of just debating God Tiers so I'm just going to write a stream of consciousness observation of stuff that is in the game:

  • At the beginning of the game, Amanozako is so weak that she's about to be eaten by a group of Pretas
  • Apsaras and Leanan Sidhe are equal, and the quest where you have to choose between supporting either of them is the first in the game
  • A group of mermaids was being attacked and corrupted by Pazuzu, with one of them escaping. After you defeat Pazuzu, you can find Anahita and fight her so she will purify the river and save the mermaids from Pazuzu's curse, so she's more powerful than he
  • Hydra is the first boss of the game and the early-game demons are all terrified of the "Demon in the Tower", though this wouldn't scale to Anahita as she was just chilling in the fountain
  • Jatayu is more powerful than Hydra as stated by Atvaras
  • Huang Long controls the Four Sacred Beasts and can summon them as a challenge for you, but they're all Lv. 40 or so and he tells you to come back later
  • You kill Eligor early in the game when the angels dispatch you as an assassin to defeat him for them
  • You fight Nuwa very early in the game but she's explicitly holding back and just playing with you
  • Jozoji Temple maintains a barrier that prevents demons from flooding into Tokyo, which is apparently the last remnant of the human world not to be assimilated into the Netherworld.
  • At this point of the game you fight the ancient god Lahmu, the first character who really has hype. At first he is weakened and he retreats after kidnapping Sahori because she contains his Knowledge. Later you have rematch with Lahmu who is posessing Sahori
  • Demeter has you kill Belphegor and then Moloch in different areas. Moloch is stronger than Belphegor
  • One side-quest involves a group of Lilims being blocked by and hiding from a single Principality
  • Loup-Garou is actually fodder despite being a new Doi design, all he does is kidnap some students and then be killed
  • You fight King Frost during a Side Quest and its actually a specific Jack Frost you meet in Nocturne and have the option to save
  • Artemis is stronger than Quetzalcoatl and doesn't see you fighting him as much of a challenge
  • Cleopatra used to be the leader of Bethel Egypt before going insane and being replaced by Khonsu so you can scale her to the other gods
  • Mephisto is 100% featless in his DLC
  • Fionn faces you relatively early in the game but before you fight and defeat Full Power Lahmu so his base power doesn't scale to Low 1-C (More on that later)
  • Titania is attested to being a "Former Harvest Goddess" which is probably a reference to the fact that Shakespeare based her on Diana
  • Idun is a goddess but she's actually extremely weak. It's implied she is weaker than a single Valkyrie as there is a Valkyrie acting as her bodyguard in the Fairy Forest
  • Loki kidnaps Idun in a side-quest and you fight him to rescue her
  • Dionysus much stronger than Black Frost but he doesn't want to waste his effort fighting him
  • Surt creates a wall of flame around a portion of Tokyo which no angel or demon can penetrate, and which even the Nahobino can't go through at this point in the game
  • At this point in the game you have a fight with Shohei and you're evenly matched, though neither side kills the other
  • Horus used to be the Egyptian Sun God, but he's gone insane and is now just a mindless monster, and Isis asks you to kill him and get his head for you (This is why Khonsu is the new Egyptian Leader, incidentally)
  • Isis intends to use Horus' Head as an offering to create a new Sun God
  • You head out to a temple where you meet the Kunitsukami, lead by Okuninushi, an they give you an amulet that makes you immune to fire. However, this does not mean they are stronger than Surt, as they are frustrated that they are powerless to stop the encroaching demons, they simply have a way to walk past the fire
  • Indeed, the Nahobino defeats Surt under his own strength and Surt is amazed by your power, the amulet simply allows you to reach Surt and not take damage just by being in his presence
  • At this point in the game you can fight all four of the Kunitsukami at once and win and they are amazed by your power.
  • Amanozako goes berserk during the Full Moon, unleashing her full power and becoming an unstoppable demon. Its really vague how strong she is but they hype her up considerably when this is dropped. And the Tengu have no means of stopping her once that happens
  • Atvaras does say that her power is "off the charts" and that she will kill you, which would mean she must be stronger than Jatayu at least
  • Ishtar is weaker than Surt, but she uses eight towers that draw in Magatsuhi towards her to amp herself, becoming "invincible". You can actually defeat her with the towers activated or destroyed, but she's much stronger if you don't deactivate them first
  • Chernobog is a servant of Arioch inside the "Demon King Castle"
  • Arioch is actually stupidly powerful. He is the one leading the forces of Chaos in Tokyo and you fight him after defeating Surt and Ishtar, which is actually a reference to his role in SMT I, where you fight him alongside Surt and Astaroth
  • Koshimizu is actually the God Tsukuyomi and he's comparable to the other Bethel Leaders: Zeus, Odin, Vasuki and Khonsu
  • Abdiel is also around the same level but weaker than them as she is defeated by the Nahobino at the summit and realizes she stands no chance of preserving God's Order on her own
  • Tao is reborn as the avatar of the "Goddess of Creation" who is very obviously Amaterasu but the game never calls her that outright. She accompanies you against the Bethel Leaders
  • incidentally Aogami is a robot clone of Susanoo so with him, Koshimizu and Tao we have the three Amatsukami
  • Shiva doesn't care about the War for the Throne which is why he delegated power to Vasuki, instead he intends to destroy the universe on his own power so Brahma can remake it instead
  • His mere presence pushes you back unless you are at a certain level where you can actually face him, showing that he is far more powerful than the other gods
  • When you actually face Shiva as an Ultimate Boss Aogami notes that his power far outclasses everything else you've faced so far, but dialogue indicated that the Nahobino has yet to make for the Throne, so its hard to say whether or not Shiva is stronger than the End Game Bosses. Certainly weaker than the Final Boss at the very least
  • Zeus is probably stronger than Odin and Vasuki as he actually survives his fight with the Nahobino and escapes with life, while the other two are destroyed
  • Futsunushi and Adramelech are comparable because they are enemies in a side-quest
  • Fionn can obtain Knowledge by sucking his thumb just like in his myths. In the context of this game this gives him the power to face the Nahobino on equal terms for a brief period of time. This is why his level skyrockets during his rematch
  • Demeter admits that Baal is on a completely different level from the Tyrants you face before, and Baal is acknowledged as being the Ruler of the Universe before YHVH took over. And before Baal it was Ra
  • However, Baal is incomplete when you fight him, as he laments that due to Lucifer's interference, Beelzebub's power is no longer with him. So he's not as powerful as his original form
  • Amon is stronger than both Mithras and Asura (The Persian one) and is stated to be the demonized form of the Sun God Ra. They all intend to use the "Winged Sun Crest" (The Eye of Horus) to ascend to their original form, but none of them can use it
  • Khonsu is able to use it, however, and ascends into the form of "Khonsu-Ra" and becomes the new Egyptian Sun God. But you still defeat him.
  • There's a quest where you need to obtain the "Lord's Sword" and defeat the Four Heavenly Kings to get Masakado's power, similar to how it works in Nocturne
  • Amanozako is actually an attempt to revive the goddess using the body of a Proto-Fiend, which is why her look is completely innacurate to mythology and why her power is unstable
  • However, even so she is weaker than Zaou-Gongen, who the Tengu employ to defeat you and take her
  • To reach the Throne of God you need to go to the Empyrean, the Highest Heaven, which is supported by three pillars representing Harmony, Severity and Mercy. The Empyrean is "The End of the Beginning, the source of the eternal light that reforges the world"
  • Because of this its pretty obvious that the Empyrean is Kether, the highest level of the Tree of Life, which is also supported by Three Pillars and the source of the Divine Light that rains down on the created world below
  • The entrance to the Empyrean is the Temple of Eternity which is guarded by Metatron, the Archangel representing Kether in Kabbalah, which is just more evidence to this fact
  • The Four Cardinal Archangels were defeated by a powerful demon during the War, with Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel being killed and Michael sealed. You need to revive the first three archangels to break Michael's seal
  • After you free Michael, he asks your help to defeat Belial who he describes as an incredibly powerful demon that leads the armies of Chaos. Belial being Michael-tier is an insane outlier that shouldn't be used
  • Zeus traces his origins to the Bull God Baal as well according to Demeter. You fight him a second time in the Empyrean but you stomp him and Zeus admits that even if he was a Nahobino he wouldn't be strong to defeat you as you are now
  • You fight Maria in the Empyrean and depending on the route you can face her as either herself, Inanna or Danu. Maria is suggested to have assimilated all the pagan mother goddesses in this universe
  • Abdiel, Tsukuyomi and Nuwa all take Nahobino forms in the Empyrean and they are relative to each other and immensely stronger than their regular forms. Even the Nahobino is pushed back by their energy when they transform
  • Tao evolves to the true form of the Goddess of Creation once you reach the Throne, and together with the Buddha Amitabha, who serves as the Light of Creation, they assist the Nahobino in remaking the world
 
What higher plane of existence is the one Above Kether? I’m not sure we have seen one In a main game outside of apocalypses final dungeon.
 
Ovrhide said:
What higher plane of existence is the one Above Kether? I’m not sure we have seen one In a main game outside of apocalypses final dungeon.
Click to expand...
They never explain what "The Realm Beyond the Earth and Heavens" is. The whole worldbuilding and cosmology of this game is painfully vague. They never even explain what Knowledge actually is explicitly.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
They never explain what "The Realm Beyond the Earth and Heavens" is. The whole worldbuilding and cosmology of this game is painfully vague. They never even explain what Knowledge actually is explicitly.
Click to expand...
The story is indeed the weakest aspect of the game. The lore is actually rich with potential, they just don’t expand on it when given the chance.

I don’t want it, but I’m expecting an “enhanced” version like they did with smt4.
 
I imagine Knowledge would be based off of Da’at, which relates to “divine light”. Think about how Nocturne had its humans form Reasons, and gods in turn would gravitate towards them in favor if it. Knowledge could be considered the basis of Reason in this case.
 
Ovrhide said:
The story is indeed the weakest aspect of the game. The lore is actually rich with potential, they just don’t expand on it when given the chance.

I don’t want it, but I’m expecting an “enhanced” version like they did with smt4.
Click to expand...
Expecting a SMT V Sanity edition some time.
 
Right thread this time.

Camael's boss fight has some obvious, but handy lore to have outright stated, although maybe the JP translation is different. The God of Law was a Nahobino.
 
Isn't it stated somewhere that only Nahobino can access the Empyrean? Or something to that effect. I don't exactly recall.
 
Yeah a Dominion also says that angels can't access the Empyrean. Once the Nahobino beats Metatron and uses the Three Keys the gates open up.
 
Also yes, YHVH is a Nahobino in the context of SMT V. This is perhaps the biggest example of how the game makes up new stuff that heavily contradicts past games, and part of the reason I really can't conceive of SMT V being anything but a particularly odd universe in the setting.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Also yes, YHVH is a Nahobino in the context of SMT V. This is perhaps the biggest example of how the game makes up new stuff that heavily contradicts past games, and part of the reason I really can't conceive of SMT V being anything but a particularly odd universe in the setting.
Click to expand...
It does feel like a Devil Survivor Overclocked style universe in some ways. Similar, but just a different enough to be someone strange (although more extreme).
 
Raihohoho said:
Unless I'm forgetting something, this begs the question of how Lucifer got in.
Click to expand...
He already had his own knowledge (how and when isn't discussed), which is probably how he even fell in the first place, given how he spread knowledge to humans.
 
A Nahobino is
a Gods True form, they were reduced from this form to Demons when the Creator stole their Knowledge, then Lucifer stole it from Eden and humans had the Knowldege bonded to their Souls. So Gods regain their true form and power as Nahobino by finding the humans with their Knowledge.

As this was done by the Creator when he took the Throne of course he still had his Knowledge, and thus was a Nahobino, before he took the Throne.

As for how Lucifer reached him when the Creator banned Nahobinos outright and becoming one is only possible after his death...? No clue.
 
A re-release would probably add an extra ending and turn Khonsu and Zeus' side-quests into full storylines.
 
I like the added lore. A nahobino is nothing more than a god in their truest form,so it would make sense why YHVH is conscider one. Doesn’t contradict much but expands on the nature of what YHVH is, a True God, and the only one prior to his death.

basically, the way I view it, it is similar (not the same) to how apocalypse had that thing where denying YHVH dethroned him from god to demon.

Tho instead of being nanashi, it was pretty much YHVH himself who denied the gods of their knowledge and reduced them to demons.

YHVH is kinda pathetic and petty.
 
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