Shin Megami Tensei CRT: Four Devas Downgrade

[Ionliosite]

Since I was told to make this another thread, here it is. Basically, the Four Devas and everyone above them were recently upgraded to Low 1-C due to creating a barrier that stops the Expanse from fusing with the Human World. The issue here is... this isn't a Low 1-C feat.

1. The feat isn't even AP, as anyone with common sense can tell, barriers are defensive abilities, not destructive abilities. So using a barrier to protect the Human World isn't a feat that would translate to AP, since again, just because someone can create a barrier doesn't mean they can deal as much as destruction as the barrier takes.

2. This doens't even fit our definition of Low 1-C, which is as stated on Tiering System:

Low 1-C | Low Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

So unless there's proof the Devas can affect/create/destroy the entire Expanse, unless those who ARE stated to be able to do that (such as Kuzuryu) should be rated as Low 1-C and the Devas and those who scales to them would be downgraded.

 

[Eganergo]

Agree, but downgraded to what?

 

[Ionliosite]

Either Low 2-C or 2-C, I think, since the 2-A feat is Kagutsuchi's and they don't scale to it either, so depends on if they can scale to Thor-level people or not.

 

[Eganergo]

Wait... why is the revision mainly about Devas but there are no tags for them?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

2-C is kind of weird since iirc, it comes from Thor being way stronger then Loki and Surtur's entry saying he can destroy the 9 Realms or something so ehhh, there's not a lot to go off of. Low 2-C seems best IMO.

 

[DMUA]

Barriers do still require an amount of power, and it doesn't really make sense that their ability to defend would be straight up infinitely higher than their AP, otherwise they'd be able to end a fight with an equal opponent by just using a barrier.

It's not exactly the definition but it doesn't exactly make sense to have people actively countering the influence of a Low 1-C construct, then proceed to say they're actually infinitely lower than it anyways

 

[Ionliosite]

Except the barrier is held by the Four Devas, unless you have a proof a single individual can make the barrier by themselves, that first argument doesn't hold any water. Also, stone walls exist, so the defensive abilities of some characters can in fact be infinitely above their AP (we literally have Tier 10s with Tier 2 dura in the wiki due to this). Except the Devas have absolutely no statement or feats that puts them at the level of the Expanse, so there's no reason to say they are on its level either.

 

[DMUA]

Dividing a cardinal number by 4 still doesn't make it infinitely lesser. Sure, they can exist, but nothing really indicates that they're far better at defense than defense besides being pedantic about how they express their power, in an actual fight, they aren't shown as particularly durable.

This implies that the expanse's advance on reality is infinitely below it merely existing as a thing that is 5D

 

[Ionliosite]

Of course the Devas aren't particulary durable, their durability is the same as their AP, which isn't related to a barrier they can make.

No, it implies creating a barrier is in no way or form an AP feat, and doesn't affect the Low 1-C structure in a significant way, making them having Low 1-C AP completely unbased.

 

[00potato]

If the same power being used to make the barrier is being used for their attacks, the wouldn’t it scale? If the barrier was infinitely higher then their offense, why wouldn’t they just insta win everything by summoning one?

Countering a low 1-C object with a barrier is blatantly a low 1-C feat, I don’t really get that point.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ionliosite makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Elizhaa @Dragonmasterxyz @Super_Saiyan_God_Julian

What do you think?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree, they don't scale to the Expanse.

There's also no evidence they were pushing back the entiretity of the Demon World and separating it from the MULTIVERSE. It's a more localized feat.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I made a large reply as to why I disagreed with Low 1-C in the old forum, I can fetch it again if it's necessary. Even if it was valid, it's incredibly outliery since it's a feat vastly higher then the Demon Gods ever performed, like Kagatasuchi.

 

[Ionliosite]

Oh, yeah, please. If you can repost that here, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Alrighty.

Nowhere in the source does it say what the Kings are doing is affecting the entire multiverse, it just says "Human World". It doesn't give a since of the scope or size, when this franchise tends to let you know when a feat is affecting other worlds.

Furthermore, assuming it is legitimate, it seems incredibly strange that the Kings would have a feat infinitely superior to Kagasutchi, who is among the strongest entities in the entire franchise. The arguments for why it's not an outlier is because "the game treats them as very powerful beings" and "it's a major plot point" for the game. Both of these are flawed reasonings.

1. The Kings are never portrayed as being anything more than relatively powerful demons in the rest of the franchise, and are random encounters in every other game. For context, even some of the stronger Gods in the series only have feats on the scale of universal creation and destruction. A single Low 1-C feat in a part of the franchise that is at most Low 2-C would be deemed an outlier anywhere else, so why is it not here?

2. It's a major plot point in a single game in a franchise with over 20 games (not counting the Persona series), if we applied this logic to other franchises, we'd get incredibly inflated results all around. Superman killing True Darkseid was a major plot point in Final Crisis, but that doesn't mean the feat isn't an outlier (bad example ik since it was done through a special thing but it's the first example I could think if that wouldn't be obscure) but it's not consistent with his other appearances.

And again, the scaling this would lead to would be a mess. The Kings are generally depicted as being on the same level as guys who create universe creation/destruction as relatively serious and impressive feats.

 

[Ionliosite]

Minor correction, it's plot point in two games, one of the Devil Survivor ones and SMT I. However, the fact the barrier had to be destroyed two times, each in games that take place in different universes, puts some weight on Matt's argument that the barrier isn't covering the entire Expanse.

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, I am not against the downgrade; I agree Low 2-C, not 2-C would the be most appropriate tier.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Hold on, i have some stuff to type up

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Alrighty.

Nowhere in the source does it say what the Kings are doing is affecting the entire multiverse, it just says "Human World". It doesn't give a since of the scope or size, when this franchise tends to let you know when a feat is affecting other worlds.

Furthermore, assuming it is legitimate, it seems incredibly strange that the Kings would have a feat infinitely superior to Kagasutchi, who is among the strongest entities in the entire franchise. The arguments for why it's not an outlier is because "the game treats them as very powerful beings" and "it's a major plot point" for the game. Both of these are flawed reasonings.

1. The Kings are never portrayed as being anything more than relatively powerful demons in the rest of the franchise, and are random encounters in every other game. For context, even some of the stronger Gods in the series only have feats on the scale of universal creation and destruction. A single Low 1-C feat in a part of the franchise that is at most Low 2-C would be deemed an outlier anywhere else, so why is it not here?

2. It's a major plot point in a single game in a franchise with over 20 games (not counting the Persona series), if we applied this logic to other franchises, we'd get incredibly inflated results all around. Superman killing True Darkseid was a major plot point in Final Crisis, but that doesn't mean the feat isn't an outlier (bad example ik since it was done through a special thing but it's the first example I could think if that wouldn't be obscure) but it's not consistent with his other appearances.

And again, the scaling this would lead to would be a mess. The Kings are generally depicted as being on the same level as guys who create universe creation/destruction as relatively serious and impressive feats.

1. Kings being only random encounter demons is false. The Kings were bosses in Nocturne and Apocalypse so they have relevancy outside of Devil Survivor. (Plus they were even sub bosses in other games like IV and Strange Journey)

2. C'mon man. DC is a franchise with over dozens of different writers, character interpretations, is between multiple media such as games and comics ,ect. This isn't remotely the same as SMT which is a gaming franchise that's connected to other games and generally follows all the same rules across games, And dozens of other franchises have tons different rules of how installments connect which would go on a case by case basis so it's not relevant here.

3. No it wouldn't. Refer to my sub bosses feats and stuff. And finally--

4. First of all Amane refers to the Devas' barrier as a wall of power. And second. The Devas' wall does have other affects on reality besides merely splitting the worlds. The reason demon summoning can work without complex rituals is because the Shomonkai weakened the barrier between the human and demon world therefore destabilizing it's spiritual condition by killing one of the Devas. So that already means the Devas can still hold off the Expanse from fully fusing even when one of them is dead and have been doing so at least weeks before the start of Abel's journey in Devil Survivor (and they don't even need to exert absolutely massive energy to do it either). The Expanse even got closer to the world upon Bishamonten's death (Whose so much stronger than the other Devas Komokuten and Zouchuten wouldn't fight Abel one and one because he preformed said feat) and the Expanse still couldn't fully materialize and start to consume the human world because two Devas still existed and only fused when none of them existed.

 

[Ionliosite]

That doesn't adress a couple of key points, like a) how does the durability of the barrier scale to their AP ("wall of power" can claimed for literally any force field and that doens't mean they scale to AP) or b) where is it said they are affecting the enterity of the Expanse instead of just the part linked to the respective universes the feats happened, which are the most relevant points of why it isn't Low 1-C AP.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

She literally said it's a wall of their strength. If they have the power to stop a Low 1-C structure from doing whatever it does passively by literally just exerting passive energy by existing how would they not punch with the same force? And why would not we not assume the entire Expanse is affected since demons have a much harder time crossing space and time to enter the human world in general? And the structure itself is Low 1-C so. And could you please explain what only linked to respective universes means? Just to make sure i'm understanding what you mean 100%

 

[00potato]

Why wouldn’t it scale, unless the barrier came from some external power source, why would it be Infinitely more power then everything else.
If it was, why would they do anything else in a fight besides just: I summon barrier and win.

 

[Ionliosite]

More important question, why would we assume the entire Expanse is being affected? Unless the whole structure is being significantly affected, of which you have shown no proof of, then the feat doesn't even count as Low 1-C to begin with. Just saying that demons have a harder time crossing doesn't mean the whole Expanse is being affected, as this is reflected in SMT I, where the barrier created by the Devas that stopped the fusion with the Expanse wasn't ever stated to be affecting the whole structure but instead just the part that would stop it from merging with the world.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

You can't just say i didn't show any proof each time. I showed that they can stop the Expanse from passively doing something it does well.. passively. Explain to me how doing said feat somehow isn't significant

 

[Ionliosite]

Because it's literally creating a barrier so it doesn't merge with the human world. This isn't affecting the whole structure (key word here being whole) in a significant way. There being two different of these barriers, one in Devil Survivor and one in SMT I, supports Matt's argument that they are localized instead of affecting the Expanse on its enterity, with SMT I leaving it very clear that the barrier isn't affecting the whole multiverse. And for the record, no, you haven't shown any proof it affected the whole structure, so I can keep claiming it.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

The barrier in SMT 1 was to stop YHVH from flooding the Earth IIRC.. And affecting any significant part of the Expanse is still Low 1-C either way and they still obviously scale to those parts. Even i myself and many others agreed they don't neccesarily scale to 100%. But to a notable one

 

[Ionliosite]

And that's where you're wrong, kid. The barrier in SMT I was stop the Expanse and the interference of the demons from it, YHVH's flood was just what he did as soon as it was lifted. No one is saying that you can't partially scale, it's just that you have 0 proof they scale to a significant portion of it instead of just the minimal part that these two barriers would represent when compared to the structure in question. Also, "affecting any significant part of the Expanse" isn't Low 1-C, as I shown on the OP, what Tiering System said is that the whole structure needs to be significantly affected.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

What about the barrier in SMT 1? And even this isn't the exact same case as it was stated to stop the demon world itself from conusming reality so it affects more than just demons going from plane to the other. And about "the minimal part of the barrier in question" Are you still going about the idea of a barrier not swallowing a whole multiverse?

 

[Ionliosite]

You haven't proved it affects the whole Expanse, so yes, I remain this is localized since we know of the existance of two of them.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

You mean of two barriers? Are you saying the barriers aren't multiversal cause it didn't affecte SMT I and Devil Survivor simultaneously?

 

[Ionliosite]

No, I'm saying the barriers aren't affecting the entire Expanse.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Right that's a better way to say it but why would having 2 barriers in different games affect the idea of them affecting the entire Expanse?

 

[Ionliosite]

... It doesn't. That's my point. The fact the Devas have made different barriers indicates that neither affects the entire Expanse.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Both of those Expanses are related to two different multiverses so of course they make a barrier for each one

 

[Ionliosite]

Unless you're implication now is that there's two different Expanses, that only supports my point even further.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Yeah. There can be different iterations of Expanses. Just like how there can be other variants of Lucifer and Base YHVH

 

[MagiSinbad]

This is my first time heard about 2 Expanses, given that the Expanse as a whole is a creation of Goddess of Tokyo and being the space between universes/multiverses

Are there any evidences support the existence of multiple Expanses ?

 

[AKM sama]

Ion, Amelia and Matt seem to make sense here.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Well, let me be fair and say this : Unless i'm misremembering stuffs. Other than holding the Expanse from consuming Bel's world, the barrier was also strong enough to hold back this meat ball from entering the said world.

While like Ion said above, this isnt AP feat (Given that Jikoku still got his butt kicked really bad by the Shomonkai). But i suppose we should at least give the Devas's barriers some credit.