Shin Megami Tensei CRT: Four Devas Downgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay so here's the thing:

1. Michael is stated to have defeated Lucifer in multiple games. In Compendiums and in dialogue because it's part of Michael's basic mythology so of course it's there.

2. This literally doesn't fit with any of the games and we know that Lucifer is astronomically stronger than Michael given huge amounts of evidence. It's so overwhelming as to be absurd. To a Fake Copy of YHVH created by the Archangels' fate being itself more powerful than the Archangels, yet nevertheless weaker than true Names of God or Lucifer and Satan (SMT II), to the combined might of the Four Archangels being weaker than Metatron (Devil Survivor), to the Archangels DEFINITELY being much, much weaker than Kagutsuchi who himself is unambiguously weaker than Lucifer (Nocturne), it all doesn't add up. Not to mention SMT IV insists that Lucifer was defeated by Merkabah.

So just ignore it. At worst it's an outlier. At best it's that type of weird in-universe mythological inconsistency you're not supposed to think about powerscaling wise.

 

[DMUA]

In the introduction to his in SMT 2 fight he outright says he bested Lucifer

... Pretty sure that doesn't make any sense but, it's a thing that happened

Also, I remember the quote actually, here... Is what I think but as I edit this, I think it says something like "It feels like a messenger of the great will" when you talk to them again later

As per the thing about him only intervening on TDE, I feel like that doesn't really mean much, power wise. He specifically states "before your heart is consumed by darkness". He's not worried about Demi-Fiend being so overwhelmingly powerful he wipes Kagatsuhi off the map, he's worried that Demi-Fiend will try to kill them as opposed to release their power of creation.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached enough of a consensus to apply this revision yet?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I disagree with this, but I’ll read all the points and respond when I can.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached enough of a consensus to apply this revision yet?

Anyway...

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

1. Kings being only random encounter demons is false. The Kings were bosses in Nocturne and Apocalypse so they have relevancy outside of Devil Survivor. (Plus they were even sub bosses in other games like IV and Strange Journey)

2. C'mon man. DC is a franchise with over dozens of different writers, character interpretations, is between multiple media such as games and comics ,ect. This isn't remotely the same as SMT which is a gaming franchise that's connected to other games and generally follows all the same rules across games, And dozens of other franchises have tons different rules of how installments connect which would go on a case by case basis so it's not relevant here.

3. No it wouldn't. Refer to my sub bosses feats and stuff. And finally--

4. First of all Amane refers to the Devas' barrier as a wall of power. And second. The Devas' wall does have other affects on reality besides merely splitting the worlds. The reason demon summoning can work without complex rituals is because the Shomonkai weakened the barrier between the human and demon world therefore destabilizing it's spiritual condition by killing one of the Devas. So that already means the Devas can still hold off the Expanse from fully fusing even when one of them is dead and have been doing so at least weeks before the start of Abel's journey in Devil Survivor (and they don't even need to exert absolutely massive energy to do it either). The Expanse even got closer to the world upon Bishamonten's death (Whose so much stronger than the other Devas Komokuten and Zouchuten wouldn't fight Abel one and one because he preformed said feat) and the Expanse still couldn't fully materialize and start to consume the human world because two Devas still existed and only fused when none of them existed.

This is basically already one of my big points, their energy is passively holding back a Low 1-C structure from reaching the Human World, I don’t see how rust wouldn’t scale to them. As for it only affecting the human world, I don’t see why it has to. The Expanse is already naturally far bigger than the Human World, so why would the smaller structure be the tier? If there’s a dam protecting an ocean from a river, the ocean is going to consume the river in its entirety if it breaks, so why would it only scale to the river if it gets covered?

Same as what DMUA said, nothing is implied that they’re infinitely weaker than the barrier they put off, and dividing 4 by infinity is still infinity. In fact, Bishamon is stated to be the strongest of the Devas, fought the DeSu1 cast, while passively holding up the barrier. This wouldn’t be an outlier either, as it would simply upscale Demons that are massively above The Devas, such as Kagu & Metatron. As Yvel said, they’re treated as bosses, so they’re not no name demons that just sit around. They have some might to them, but are outclassed by higher caliber.

Tl;dr, I see no evidence to suggest their physical strength=/=barrier strength, as as said by Lucifer, Demons create barriers against one another to seal each other so they can temporarily put them away since they can’t kill them, while there’s no concrete evidence to say that they’re pushing back the entire Expanse, there’s no evidence to suggest that they aren’t either. This would quite literally warrant a possibly rating.

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

Some basis=Expanse already being Low 1-C.
Inconclusive due to vagueness=Not explicitly stated or not stated they’re holding back the entire Expanse.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The feat isn't Low 1-C. There's no proof it affects the entire Demon World. Human World in that context is referring to that specific universe.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

> The feat isn't Low 1-C. There's no proof it affects the entire Demon World. Human World in that context is referring to that specific universe.

As far as I understand the Expanse is a 5-D construct/space/thing, the devas do not need to affect the whole thing to get the tier if we go by the tiring page:

"Tier 1: Extradimensional

Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces..."

stopping the Demon world from consuming the universe should be enough imo

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The feat isn't Low 1-C. There's no proof it affects the entire Demon World. Human World in that context is referring to that specific universe.

There’s no proof that it doesn’t either, which again, warrants a possibly. Even so, a bigger structure collapsing on a smaller structure doesn’t mean that it scales to the smaller structure, especially since the former is infinitely bigger.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I do agree with Milly too

> I see no evidence to suggest their physical strength=/=barrier strength

Regarding this, even IF it didn't scale to their physical strengths, it still would scale to their combined might which we know any other relevant Demon surpasses.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There’s no proof that it doesn’t either, which again, warrants a possibly. Even so, a bigger structure collapsing on a smaller structure doesn’t mean that it scales to the smaller structure, especially since the former is infinitely bigger.

"Prove it doesn't exist".

That's not how it works oh my god.

 

[Ionliosite]

Burden of proof, you need to prove the positive. No one here is dennying the Expanse is Low 1-C, that's a fact we all agree on, what is being disagreed is that a) the feat isn't AP and b) the feat doesn't affect the whole structure, making it inapplicable for Low 1-C AP in the first place.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

"Prove it doesn't exist".

That's not how it works oh my god.

I know full & well how burden of proof works, but who claimed that they were shielding the entire Expanse? I said they were holding back a Low 1-C structure. I already explained how it could scale to full AP, with their power passively pushing it back, and being able to fight at the same time.

As far as I can tell, me & Yvel never did, so you would have to prove it isn’t shielding the entire Expanse.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ioliosite has applied what has been accepted by the staff here. Is there anything else left to do, or should we close this thread?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The hell, why is he allowed to apply if it there’s still disagreements? As far as I can tell, no one definitively from the opposition said that they were shielding the entire Expanse, but the OP says they didn’t, and there’s no evidence to prove that they weren’t.

 

[Antvasima]

We tend to eventually go with what the staff think is reliable.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Okay? Being reliable is fine and all but saying their perspective is automatically correct is another.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

We tend to eventually go with what the staff think is reliable.

So two extra tags at the bottom of your name means what you say is more reliable automatically then by those who don’t?

 

[Antvasima]

Not automatically, but the staff have usually been promoted because they are among the most rational members in the wiki, and it is part of their job description to evaluate what should and should not be accepted and applied, including if arguments are going around in circles.

Anyway, can somebody summarise who have agreed with what then?

 

[Antvasima]

I could call more staff members to help us out with evaluations though.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is the same thing that happened in the previous SMT speed upgrade before the wiki forum. There are experts besides mods.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @TISSG7Redgrave @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Yomi_Schwarz @Dragonmasterxyz @ThePerpetual @Ultima_Reality @The_real_cal_howard @Super_Saiyan_God_Julian

Are some of you willing to help out here?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

My say likely doesn't matter and it's been a long time since i touched SMT tbh but from what i gathered if the crutch is that the Devas are stopping the expanse with their barrier which is related to their strenght (unless its an outside source) they should scale as they need power to even hold it off or scale to it.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with the changes made; I think the Devas' feat needs better evidence to prove they affected the entire Expanse, also.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The problem is that there isn't. Assuming the Demon World (Which is what it's called in everything but IV) is always going to refer to a multiversal structure is ridiculous. Nothing indicates that in Devil Survivor.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I am fine with the changes made; I think the Devas' feat needs better evidence to prove they affected the entire Expanse, also.

No one ever made the claim they were affecting the entire Expanse, if would be up to the OP to prove that they weren’t since the opposition did not.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The problem is that there isn't. Assuming the Demon World (Which is what it's called in everything but IV) is always going to refer to a multiversal structure is ridiculous. Nothing indicates that in Devil Survivor.

How is it ridiculous? It’s referring to the same structure, one we know is Low 1-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It was only established later and in this game they never touch on alternate universes even once.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It was only established later and in this game they never touch on alternate universes even once.

Okay?? And I already went over how that doesn’t matter, an infinitely bigger structure consuming an infinitely smaller one would still scale to the former, it would make no sense for it not to.

 

[Antvasima]

If the whole cosmology was not established yet during the feat, and it contradicts all other explanations of their scale, it can probably be considered as an outlier.

 

[Ionliosite]

No one ever made the claim they were affecting the entire Expanse, if would be up to the OP to prove that they weren’t since the opposition did not.

No, YOU need to prove they did, since otherwise, the feat can't be Low 1-C since affecting only a small part of the structure isn't enough.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yes, since the evidences aren't solid, the Devas and those who powerscaled should not be Low 1-C.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No, YOU need to prove they did, since otherwise, the feat can't be Low 1-C since affecting only a small part of the structure isn't enough.

But you were the one who made the claim that they weren’t shielding the entire Expanse in the OP? Why do I need to prove the negative? Even so, shielding a Low 1-C structure no matter how many small it is, is still Low 1-C, as it’s infinitely above the smaller Low 2-C structure.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If the whole cosmology was not established yet during the feat, and it contradicts all other explanations of their scale, it can probably be considered as an outlier.

What exactly is it contradicting? I already said this doesn’t put them anywhere above high tier Demons such as Kagu, Metatron, etc.

 

[Ionliosite]

No, shielding a Low 1-C structure, even the enterity of it, wouldn't be Low 1-C since that's not an AP feat. You don't have to prove the negative, you have to prove the positive, that's how burden of proof works, this was done as an answer to the thread were you decided to upgrade everyone to Low 1-C, so now I'm asking for the evidence of that upgrade even being valid, because otherwise, their profiles remain as they have already been edited based on what was accepted by AKM, Matt, Amelia and Elizhaa.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Elizhaa and Ionliosite.

 

[Ionliosite]

What exactly is it contradicting? I already said this doesn’t put them anywhere above high tier Demons such as Kagu, Metatron, etc.

Let's assume the feat means Low 1-C AP. Demons far stronger than the Devas such as the Cardinal Archangels don't have any feat anywhere near that scale, and even demons far stronger than those angels such as Kagutsuchi and Metatron have feats that are 2-A at best. The one character who's stated to destroy the Expanse is Kuzuryu, who's strong enough that Lucifer struggled a lot to even put under control, and Lucifer is also far above Metatron. So this feat would be on the same as someone who's > Lucifer, who stomps Metatron, who stomps Kagutsuchi, who stomps the Cardinal Archangels, who stomp the Devas. Basically, this feat is far above what people far stronger than the Devas have done, and it's on the same scale as someone even stronger than that. The only reason this feat isn't the very definition of an outlier is because this feat isn't even AP to begin with.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No, shielding a Low 1-C structure, even the enterity of it, wouldn't be Low 1-C since that's not an AP feat. You don't have to prove the negative, you have to prove the positive, that's how burden of proof works, this was done as an answer to the thread were you decided to upgrade everyone to Low 1-C, so now I'm asking for the evidence of that upgrade even being valid, because otherwise, their profiles remain as they have already been edited based on what was accepted by AKM, Matt, Amelia and Elizhaa.

You made the claim that they aren’t shielding all of it, literally in the OP. Where is the evidence to suggest that? We already went over that the barriers are made of the Devas’s strength, it’s not said to be made of magic, or any other extra source of power, it’s stated to be a wall of “power”, capable of keeping this wall up as they’re fighting. There is nothing to suggest that they’re infinitely weaker than their barrier, because making barriers comparable to AP has been touched on by Lucifer in SMTIV, who says Demons can only be sealed by other Demons to put them down.

So again, there’s nothing to suggest it isn’t AP, or that they’re weaker than their barrier, that it isn’t shielding the entire Expanse, and at the end of Low 1-C consuming Low 2-C is still Low 1-C, its a bigger structure.

Just like those people agree with you, Yvel, Tony, DMUA, and Potato agree with me.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Let's assume the feat means Low 1-C AP. Demons far stronger than the Devas such as the Cardinal Archangels don't have any feat anywhere near that scale, and even demons far stronger than those angels such as Kagutsuchi and Metatron have feats that are 2-A at best. The one character who's stated to destroy the Expanse is Kuzuryu, who's strong enough that Lucifer struggled a lot to even put under control, and Lucifer is also far above Metatron. So this feat would be on the same as someone who's > Lucifer, who stomps Metatron, who stomps Kagutsuchi, who stomps the Cardinal Archangels, who stomp the Devas. Basically, this feat is far above what people far stronger than the Devas have done, and it's on the same scale as someone even stronger than that. The only reason this feat isn't the very definition of an outlier is because this feat isn't even AP to begin with.

Again, this isn’t an outlier, because it only up scales said Demons that are confirmed stronger than them. It’s already established the Devas aren’t jobbers, they have been bosses before, however they get outmatched by higher Demons. Those Demons would simply be stronger than the Devas, as they were passively holding back a Low 1-C structure.