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Then Kazuya wins because he scales above the kings who can hold back a low 1-C realm while Aleph scales to the archangels who only scale to governing the realms which isn't even a physical feat
 
Then Kazuya wins because he scales above the kings who can hold back a low 1-C realm while Aleph scales to the archangels who only scale to governing the realms which isn't even a physical feat
The strongest characters that Kazuya and Alpeh scale to in their Low 1-C keys are Nebiros and Michael respectively, who should be roughly comparable to each other.

And the Archangels have their raring because they naturally reside in a 6D realm. They're ontologically Low 1-C.
 
The strongest characters that Kazuya and Alpeh scale to in their Low 1-C keys are Nebiros and Michael respectively, who should be roughly comparable to each other.

And the Archangels have their raring because they naturally reside in a 6D realm. They're ontologically Low 1-C.
Why is Michael comparable to Michael?

A 2D object naturally exists in a 3D world, so naturally residing in a 6D world isn't a feat. "Ontologically low 1-C" isn't an actual thing
 
Why is Michael comparable to Michael?
Because...Michael is Michael. Nebiros is comparable to Belial, who is in turn roughly equal to Michael.

A 2D object naturally exists in a 3D world, so naturally residing in a 6D world isn't a feat.
There are no objects that are purely 2D in our 3D world.

"Ontologically low 1-C" isn't an actual thing
It is. It's called being 5th or 6th dimensional, which the Archangels are.
 
Why is Belial comparable to Michael?
He occupies a similar position to Michael, just on the side of the forces of Chaos. This is corroborated by how the two are fought at the same time on the Law and Chaos routes.

Still, 2D things can exist, like directions without depth. Shadows in Mementos are 3D even though the dimension is 1-A
I'm not going to argue what has already been accepted by the wiki. Make a CRT if you're so inclined.
 
Beelzebub occupies a similar position to Metatron but is significantly stronger than him before devil survivor
Beelzebub, who in Nocturne is capable of transforming into his humanoid form, thus implying those two aspects of himself are reunited, is still stated to be weaker than Metatron.

Regardless, the fact Belial and Michael are fought interchangeably at the exact same time, just during different routes, is enough to cement them as being at least roughly comparable. And this is all disregarding the fact both of them insane RE/AD that will render any significant AP differences moot.
 
Beelzebub, who in Nocturne is capable of transforming into his humanoid form, thus implying those two aspects of himself are reunited, is still stated to be weaker than Metatron.
So I was wrong, it was the other way round.

Regardless, the fact Belial and Michael are fought interchangeably at the exact same time, just during different routes, is enough to cement them as being at least roughly comparable.

Why?

And this is all disregarding the fact both of them insane RE/AD that will render any significant AP differences moot.

What reactive evolution feats do Kazuya and Aleph have?
 
I literally do not know how I can explain it in a more simple manner.


Any human with sufficient willpower can utilize the RE/AD.
That wouldn't apply to every fight, just a few. Flynn in his fight against Sanat increased his power and gained more actions, something that doesn't happen in every boss fight for him, proving its not something that's always being used. His spiritual power increasing substantially isn't quantifiable, same goes for that Sanat thing
 
That wouldn't apply to every fight, just a few. Flynn in his fight against Sanat increased his power and gained more actions, something that doesn't happen in every boss fight for him, proving its not something that's always being used. His spiritual power increasing substantially isn't quantifiable, same goes for that Sanat thing
Did you just so happen to overlook the myriad of other examples of characters activating their RE/AD from willpower alone? If a character's life is in danger, and they have sufficient willpower, it's going to activate.
 
Did you just so happen to overlook the myriad of other examples of characters activating their RE/AD from willpower alone? If a character's life is in danger, and they have sufficient willpower, it's going to activate.
Ok, name all the instances that aren't also using the wild card's power or the Demonica's reactive evolution
 
No. There are multiple examples in the scans I already posted that fall into either category.
The first one is from Yu who was using the power of the wild card, the Yosuke example is because of a Persona user's power to gain strength from bonds, Maruki's one is literally for a god tier of the verse that wouldn't scale to Kazuya and Aleph, the rest are for persona powers neither of them have. The Jonathan feat is when he utilises so much magnetite his body starts to transform, something neither of them have done. The accelerated development against Enlil was again, a Persona ability and something like that only ever happened when they got erased. The SMT If... feat is good but its not like it means he grows strong enough to one shot characters who are able to kill him before that within the span of 1 fight

The minotaur example is Flynn growing stronger but no indication of how much stronger exactly. The Ice spell example doesn't tell me how much stronger Jonathan got. Overall most of the examples are from persona characters who have stronger wills than Kazuya and Aleph, or aren't that quantifiable
 
The first one is from Yu who was using the power of the wild card, the Yosuke example is because of a Persona user's power to gain strength from bonds, Maruki's one is literally for a god tier of the verse that wouldn't scale to Kazuya and Aleph, the rest are for persona powers neither of them have. The Jonathan feat is when he utilises so much magnetite his body starts to transform, something neither of them have done. The accelerated development against Enlil was again, a Persona ability and something like that only ever happened when they got erased. The SMT If... feat is good but its not like it means he grows strong enough to one shot characters who are able to kill him before that within the span of 1 fight
I'm not going argue with you about abilities that are already accepted because you don't personally agree with them. While RE/AD works more literally with Persona users, since they are directly amped by their bonds and willpowers, as proven by Flynn and Jonathan's feats, the general principle of humans becoming more powerful with stronger emotions should still be applicable to Kazuya and Aleph. Walter's feat in particular isn't simply him channeling more energy through his body either, it's his willpower and bonds that allowed him to awaken to his magnetite and mutate his body in the first place. Aleph and Kazuya are relatively comparable in these keys as well, so neither of them are going to be one-shotting each other in the beginning of the fight.

The minotaur example is Flynn growing stronger but no indication of how much stronger exactly.
From the Sanat fight, we know that their RE/AD can extend up to 1-A from Low 1-C.
 
I'm not going argue with you about abilities that are already accepted because you don't personally agree with them. While RE/AD works more literally with Persona users, since they are directly amped by their bonds and willpowers, as proven by Flynn and Jonathan's feats, the general principle of humans becoming more powerful with stronger emotions should still be applicable to Kazuya and Aleph. Walter's feat in particular isn't simply him channeling more energy through his body either, it's his willpower and bonds that allowed him to awaken to his magnetite and mutate his body in the first place. Aleph and Kazuya are relatively comparable in these keys as well, so neither of them are going to be one-shotting each other in the beginning of the fight.


From the Sanat fight, we know that their RE/AD can extend up to 1-A from Low 1-C.
That's not using the power of bonds, that's his resolve to fight allowing him to awaken all that, and Aleph and Kazuya have never done something on that level, so why would you assume it happens here? Where does it say he jumps from low 1-C to 1-A in that fight? Flynn was already surviving attacks from Sanat before that happened. And if he did grow from low 1-C to 1-A, that's like the only instance where it happened, prove aleph and flynn will use it to that same extent in this fight
 
That's not using the power of bonds, that's his resolve to fight allowing him to awaken all that
You're implying the two are mutually exclusive when they're not.

Aleph and Kazuya have never done something on that level, so why would you assume it happens here?
There are multiple examples of various people growing stronger through intense emotion and/or their connection to others. It's an ability intrinsic to any human with sufficient willpower. Aleph and Kazuya should also be comparable to Flynn as fellow Messiah figures.

Where does it say he jumps from low 1-C to 1-A in that fight? Flynn was already surviving attacks from Sanat before that happened.
Sanat is used as the justification for Flynn's 1-A rating, with the former being the first 1-A Demon the latter fought. And Flynn's RE/AD feat wasn't just what was shown in the scans, but rather the entire fight itself. Rapid growth in a short period of time, such as a Low 1-C character taking down a 1-A demon, is attributed to that RE/AD.

And if he did grow from low 1-C to 1-A, that's like the only instance where it happened, prove aleph and flynn will use it to that same extent in this fight
Ultimately, the burden of proof is on you to prove they wouldn't be able to do so. It's been established and accepted by the wiki that humans in Megami Tensei are capable of growing stronger by significant amounts through shear will alone. Aleph and Kazuya are both Messiah figures, and should thus be comparable to Flynn in regards to abilities.
 
Bump.

I'll vote for Aleph, given his vastly superior skill not only in general, but in this specific key. In addition to what is already outlined in his intelligence section, he also successfully defeated three Archangels, who should are among the most skilled soldiers in YHVH's army --with Michael even defeating Lucifer in a strategic victory.
 
Bump.

I'll vote for Aleph, given his vastly superior skill not only in general, but in this specific key. In addition to what is already outlined in his intelligence section, he also successfully defeated three Archangels, who should are among the most skilled soldiers in YHVH's army --with Michael even defeating Lucifer in a strategic victory.
Quantify their skill feats. "Most skilled in YHVH's army" is too vague. You'd need real skill feats like "is an expert at aimdodging and predicting enemy attacks, good at aiming"
 
Quantify their skill feats.
Michael managed to defeat Lucifer strategically:
His name means "Who is Like God" and is one of the archangels. When Lucifer rebelled against God, the great strategist Michael was the one to defeat and trap Lucifer. He is well known for many other spectacular deeds, and to this day has a strong following in Europe.
Shin Megami Tensei: Liberation Dx2 compendium

Lucifer has the following intelligence rating:
At least Supergenius, likely Nigh-Omniscient. Before his fall from grace, Lucifer stood as the existence closest to God and one of the foremost members of the divine host, having bestowed humanity with the gift of wisdom and intelligence, and his own existence is closely linked to the concepts of lies and deceit, making him an exceptional manipulator and deceiver, and likely putting him above lesser deities such as Loki, who are described as possessing "an intellect beyond anything a human could hope to have," and archangels such as Gabriel. Described as perceiving time in a non-linear manner, witnessing the flow of history from the beginning to the end and vice-versa.

The Archangels should also be comparable to Gabriel, who has the following intelligence:
Supergenius. Naturally resides in a state beyond time and space and has direct contact with the inner workings of god, the human soul and the universe at large, ontop of having spiritual awareness several levels higher than that of humans. Responsible for the construction of the Megido Ark, a vast spaceship armed with enough firepower to wipe out all life on Earth simultaneously, killing even the one-headed Kuzuryu and an alternate version of Aleph in the process.
 
How do you think he defeated him? "Defeated strategically" doesn't tell me much.
Strategically...He managed to outsmart Lucifer in combat and trap the fallen angel into Hell.

None of the Gabriel intelligence feats are that useful for a fight
She (and by extension the rest of the Archangels) should still be superior to the likes of other deities who are connected to the concepts of warfare. The Archangels are leading figures in an endless battle between the forces of Law and Chaos --the latter of which includes the Red Rider, who is the personification of war.
 
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