Shadow Fight Upgrade That Should Have Been Done In The Past

[Jeeeeepil123]

Seeing this thread here have been gone quite over a month without any progress, i am deciding to make a new one in hope to gather more input (i also have more justification to strengthen the fact)

I already created a cosmology pages for all of the arguments, the only thing is now to decide which character that should get scaled into:

• Tenebris obviously should be scaled to the portal, as he is literally the one who created the structure.
• Shadow will be scaled to Tenebris for a reason that he can beats him, even though Tenebris were holding back to against a mortals like Shadow
• The Immortals should be scaled too, atleast being Low 2-C as Tenebris himself stated that they too are responsible on destroying the worlds using the portals
• Architect should be scaled to Real World (Self-Explanatory)

Agree: ActuallySpaceMan42, Catzlaflame (Low 2-C & 2-B)
Neutral:
Disagree: Catzlaflame (Low 1-C)

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Just wondering, why is The Descendant not higher or equal to Shadow or Shadow Mind? (Considering that the player controls them in SF3, and therefore they have canonically defeated Shadow and Shadow Mind, they should be equal or stronger?)
(This is within the main series though, not the spin off)

 

[AstraOmega]

Melihat thread ini sudah berjalan lebih dari sebulan tanpa kemajuan apa pun, saya memutuskan untuk membuat thread baru dengan harapan dapat mengumpulkan lebih banyak masukan (saya juga memiliki justifikasi lebih untuk memperkuat fakta)

Saya sudah membuat halaman kosmologi untuk semua argumen, satu-satunya hal sekarang adalah memutuskan karakter mana yang harus ditingkatkan:

• Tenebris jelas harus diperluas ke portal, karena dialah yang sebenarnya menciptakan struktur tersebut .
• Shadow akan ditingkatkan ke Tenebris karena suatu alasan dia bisa mengalahkannya, meskipun Tenebris menahan diri untuk melawan manusia seperti Shadow
• The Immortals juga harus ditingkatkan, setidaknya menjadi Low 2-C karena Tenebris sendiri menyatakan bahwa mereka juga bertanggung jawab menghancurkan dunia menggunakan portal
• Arsitek harus disesuaikan dengan dunia nyata (Penjelasan Diri)

Dejavu

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Dejavu

Why is it in Bahasa Indonesia/Melayu?

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Considering that the player controls them in SF3, and therefore they have canonically defeated Shadow and Shadow Mind

It was temporary, iirc.
You can ask SF3 stuff to @Richard5128pm

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

It was temporary, iirc.
You can ask SF3 stuff to @Richard5128pm

OK, thanks for the help.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Don't know the verse, but if I understand what I read properly I suppose Low 2-C, 2-B, and Low 1-C are fine.

 

[Catzlaflame]

The first scan you link is broken which is the one linked to the words “a portal.” The machine translations should be double checked for accuracy.

Low 2-C and 2-B is fine I guess. Still a bit suspicious, but I can’t certainly say I have an issue.

Low 1-C I completely disagree with. Reading through the scans, most everything felt extremely hyperbolic to me. To quell any suspicion, I looked into the lore a bit to learn that this character was actually beaten by the cast? How would that happen if he has a R>F relationship over them? Additionally, the summary says that: “invites him to become one of his stage actors” If he’s inviting characters to be actors, that makes the whole theatrics dynamic seem a lot more literal. So yea, hard disagree.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

The first scan you link is broken which is the one linked to the words “a portal.” The machine translations should be double checked for accuracy.

Oh my apologies, i have fixed it.
Here is the image so you don't have to re-checked the page, its not that important tho.
The MTL have been double-checked and is already been put in the profile long before this Cosmology Page is created, i'm just taking one of them.

Low 2-C and 2-B is fine I guess. Still a bit suspicious, but I can’t certainly say I have an issue.

Alright then

Low 1-C I completely disagree with. Reading through the scans, most everything felt extremely hyperbolic to me. To quell any suspicion, I looked into the lore a bit to learn that this character was actually beaten by the cast? How would that happen if he has a R>F relationship over them? Additionally, the summary says that: “invites him to become one of his stage actors” If he’s inviting characters to be actors, that makes the whole theatrics dynamic seem a lot more literal. So yea, hard disagree.

How is it hyperbolic when all of the scan seems to be consistent? Notifications, "Fantasy Narrative", Fourth Wall, Screewriter etc etc.
He gets beaten is because he's down inside the fiction world with immersion (iirc, isn't this ability make the character weaker technically?), the same like Architect did when he challenges Shadow.

The reason why he's "inviting" is because his in-character is, a humble servant of arts... he didn't manipulate Shadow first-hand is not because he can't, he absolutely can, as he is from the Real World, talking freely to the Fiction World... Its even been proved further that he can applies any changes to the world with the scale of "before creation", because in truth is Shadow Fight 2 World is just a script.
He really respect arts so hard that he follows Shadow's rules of fighting, even if its making him a slave... he will always follow that direction.

"But, WHY did he lose??"
Just like i said above, Puppeteer respects very hard about arts... and the ultimate reason why lose (in the fictional realm) is because Shadow's role is a Hero, and you know what is a hero means... they always win (this could be another reason why he can win against Tenebris lmao, its just so hard to believe he can actually defeats Tenebris by hand), and Puppeteer follows this idea.

And the reason why he's asking Shadow particularly is because Shadow is the only one who understands his plot without any directing from him.

Although, i think for the most part is because Shadow is unbound to the real world being... not in literal meaning tho, as Architect can still control him and stated that "Everything is possible in the creator's head" a blatant fact that he did not lose superiority over Shadow.
From what i understand, they (the real world being) made an agreement on Shadow's favor... they can still control him, but chose not to.

Conclusion is:
1. Puppeteer can be harmed if he is in the fictional world (like physically)
2. Puppeteer have the characteristic of overly obsessed with arts, as he follows all the rules no matter if he's in a low position... Mean is, he will not using his authority for the sake of aesthethics art.
3. They've made an agreement on not toying Shadow's life, and this Puppeteer need his consent first to make a plot involving him.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Don't know the verse, but if I understand what I read properly I suppose Low 2-C, 2-B, and Low 1-C are fine.

Noted.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Low 1-C I completely disagree with. Reading through the scans, most everything felt extremely hyperbolic to me. To quell any suspicion, I looked into the lore a bit to learn that this character was actually beaten by the cast? How would that happen if he has a R>F relationship over them? Additionally, the summary says that: “invites him to become one of his stage actors” If he’s inviting characters to be actors, that makes the whole theatrics dynamic seem a lot more literal. So yea, hard disagree.

If the "theatre" part that you have problem, then i will explain.
ITS not the theatre like in our world where its story is in limited space and require some equipment setting (such as; only applies and can be watch inside of a building), no, the fact is that the whole Shadow Fight 2 Universe itself is the theatre.
Pretty much explaining why Puppeteer can extend his story up to the "before creation".

ITS literally happening real time, infront of the dojo.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Bump

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Bump

 

[57Dev]

Didn't Shades make Underworld canon as Sensei references the Eternals

 

[Catzlaflame]

He gets beaten is because he's down inside the fiction world with immersion (iirc, isn't this ability make the character weaker technically?), the same like Architect did when he challenges Shadow.

Immersion isn’t genuine r> f (see below) there can never be any interaction between r>f, otherwise, it counters the point all together.

ALTHOUGH I will say that I agree with you that the page doesn’t do a good job at conveying this, so I’ll see to it that that gets sorted out.

Just like i said above, Puppeteer respects very hard about arts... and the ultimate reason why lose (in the fictional realm) is because Shadow's role is a Hero, and you know what is a hero means... they always win (this could be another reason why he can win against Tenebris lmao, its just so hard to believe he can actually defeats Tenebris by hand), and Puppeteer follows this idea

Regardless of this, fictional characters can’t beat real characters. The reason why we rate reality > fiction scaling so high is because of the relationship.

Let me ask you this, shadow, can he beat me in a fight? And by me… I mean literally me. Like the irl version of me sitting behind this screen. It doesn’t matter if he’s the hero or not, REGARDLESS he will never beat me in a fight because, he is fictional too me. That’s same relationship needs to be established for R>F to be valid.

 

[Elizhaa]

Tier 2 changes seem fine. Low 1-C looks wrong; since the reality fiction is supposed to be more strict and be at least 1-A. Also, from the strictness, it does not look to be a valid reality-fiction interaction, there is barely any reason why the architect can be defeated by a character in the verse, which kind of defeats the point like Catzlaflame mentioned.

• https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-dread-tiering-system-revisions.168871/
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/i_h#Q:_What_is_"qualitative_superiority"?
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/m

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Immersion isn’t genuine r> f (see below) there can never be any interaction between r>f, otherwise, it counters the point all together.

ALTHOUGH I will say that I agree with you that the page doesn’t do a good job at conveying this, so I’ll see to it that that gets sorted out.

I don't get it, what?
I say that Puppeteer Immersed himself to a fictional world, so that he can be interacted with... This is literally the whole usefulness of its abilities, its even in the page.
I'm a 3D Being, imagine i can Immersed myself in a 2D World and live there and got beat up my ass... Would it disqualify the fact that i am once an R>F Being, and can be R>F anytime if i gets back to the Real World?

Regardless of this, fictional characters can’t beat real characters. The reason why we rate reality > fiction scaling so high is because of the relationship.

Let me ask you this, shadow, can he beat me in a fight? And by me… I mean literally me. Like the irl version of me sitting behind this screen. It doesn’t matter if he’s the hero or not, REGARDLESS he will never beat me in a fight because, he is fictional too me. That’s same relationship needs to be established for R>F to be valid.

I never said Shadow can be real characters, heck, i didn't even scaled him to Low 1-C because the fact is that the Real World being is in a weaker state (Immersion)

He can't (obviously), but if you downed yourself by something called "Immersion" then i guess he can (?).
Shadow never beat Architect or Puppeteer outside the fiction world, he beats them "inside" the fictional world.

Tier 2 changes seem fine. Low 1-C looks wrong; since the reality fiction is supposed to be more strict and be at least 1-A. Also, from the strictness, it does not look to be a valid reality-fiction interaction, there is barely any reason why the architect can be defeated by a character in the verse, which kind of defeats the point like Catzlaflame mentioned.

I already addressed the Immersion part, though i guess it doesn't work out due to the new tiering page.

But there is one probable reason for why Architect can be defeated.A
rchitect is seem to be playing around the whole time, like, he already knew every Shadow's move because of his authority as a creator... And this infact proven to be true, he wants to fight us because he wants to break his boredom (as he says ITS still "unbroken", it probably suggest that he did something to the whole fight leading to his defeats, everything is possible... And Shadow will not be considered defeating him naturally by this mean)

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Didn't Shades make Underworld canon as Sensei references the Eternals

Idk, i'm currently on vacuum.
Will be playing the game again if all the act is completed

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

Didn't Shades make Underworld canon as Sensei references the Eternals

Its events and characters are simply part of another timeline now. Not part of the worlds that appear in stuff like Shadow Fight 3 and Arena, but still part of the same narrative regardless, or I guess "bigger picture" one could say.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

Just wondering, why is The Descendant not higher or equal to Shadow or Shadow Mind? (Considering that the player controls them in SF3, and therefore they have canonically defeated Shadow and Shadow Mind, they should be equal or stronger?)
(This is within the main series though, not the spin off)

Because on the low(high)-key 90% of SF profile pages are outdated ghost towns that should be purged. And I'm saying this as the guy responsible for creating all of them. Why the purge? Because in the last two years this series grew tenfold in lore size, causing it to be progresively harder to update older profiles with new scans / feats / abilities, let alone create new profiles (so I'm sorry Sarge your profile is likely NOT getting a touch-up for the foreseeable 5 years from now on).

I consider Ancient's profile the crowning glory of my profile creation capabilities. It took me a full 9 months to remake it the best way I could. This is mostly because I recognize he is one of the most versatile hax gods in the series by a long shot. Plus he's a favorite of mine as a character so personal bias goes into profile quality as well.

Descendant (not the real one) and their clones are actually on the lower side of my priority list. Because they are nothing but just balls of raw stats with no interesting personal hax quirks to make them stand out in a place like VSB wiki. And no, I don't particularly consider Chapter 7 Descendant with Shadow Mind shooting a bunch of beams of energy as its ultimate trump card ability as something outstanding either. At that point just leave Shadow Mind "fused" Shadow fill that role because Shadow has 50x the swag and fame of Descendant.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Bump

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Because on the low(high)-key 90% of SF profile pages are outdated ghost towns that should be purged. And I'm saying this as the guy responsible for creating all of them. Why the purge? Because in the last two years this series grew tenfold in lore size, causing it to be progresively harder to update older profiles with new scans / feats / abilities, let alone create new profiles (so I'm sorry Sarge your profile is likely NOT getting a touch-up for the foreseeable 5 years from now on).

I consider Ancient's profile the crowning glory of my profile creation capabilities. It took me a full 9 months to remake it the best way I could. This is mostly because I recognize he is one of the most versatile hax gods in the series by a long shot. Plus he's a favorite of mine as a character so personal bias goes into profile quality as well.

Descendant (not the real one) and their clones are actually on the lower side of my priority list. Because they are nothing but just balls of raw stats with no interesting personal hax quirks to make them stand out in a place like VSB wiki. And no, I don't particularly consider Chapter 7 Descendant with Shadow Mind shooting a bunch of beams of energy as its ultimate trump card ability as something outstanding either. At that point just leave Shadow Mind "fused" Shadow fill that role because Shadow has 50x the swag and fame of Descendant.

That is fair, though Shadow Mind did also fuse with the Descendant, but ehh, Shadow is the OG other than the shadow fighter in SF1 with Facebook (which I've never played cause it was discontinued already before I even started using Facebook, SF2 onwards I'm more experienced in)

 

[Antvasima]

@Dashio_Tessai

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Richard5128pm]

Following

 

[GarrixianXD]

For a valid reality-fiction transcendence, the real world cannot share any continuity with the fictional world. There has been several implications that isn’t the case such as characters being called as being actors, and Architect able to be defeated by in-verse characters.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

What do you think should be done here?

Well, seeing as how people don't agree with Architect's R-F Transcendence (mainly because he loses to / is harmed by one of his ficitonal characters in combat), I'd say there are three paths that he could be tiered.

1. Keep him at Tenebris' tier (At least Low 2-C, possibly higher), and mention in the explanation that he should be at the very least as strong as Tenebris.

2. Upgrade him to a solid 2-B, possibily 2-A physical rating. If Tenebris' tier is based on his capability to "inadvertedly destroy the reality" should he use his godly strength against an opponent (where "the reality" can range from anything between a Low 2-C to a 2-B structure), Architect should easily scale to the entire verse's cosmology - given how he wrote it into being and can just as easily erase / rewrite it from scratch if he felt like it. Now that just recently Underworld became just another timeline in the ocean of timelines in the canon Shadow Fight lore, Architect should scale to the entire cosmology of the canon material - we're looking at at least 500.000.000.000 universes here (with some localizations describing the amounts of timelines out there as "countless" and "infinite").

3. Keep him at Tenebris' tier (At least Low 2-C, possibly higher) physically, but allow him to have a 2-B, possbily 2-A technique via hax. This path is if people want to attribute his capability of writing and erasing / rewriting the entirety of the verse's cosmology to his Plot Manipulation (which frankly he does have and uses it in spades), rather than tie it to his physical statistics. Although this depends on interpretation: does Shadow Fight (and its plot) exist because Architect physically wrote them down on a piece of paper in the Real World? That sounds like a physical feat to me. Or do those elements exist and/or cease to exist the moment he imagines them / decides what happens to them in his head? Because in the event story featuring him we can see him interfere with the plot without him actually pulling out a piece of paper in front of everybody and writing Shadow into him miraculously talking. And he explains this to Sensei as "Everything's possible in the creator's head".

Also this is off-topic somewhat, but how should his Data Manipulation be handled? Shouldn't it technically be at least as potent, if not stronger than his Plot Manipulation? Because remember this guy is still capable of deleting the game itself from the Player's mobile device. Let's assume that the Player and Architect exist in the same Real World (because if the Player were to exist in a more "real" Real World than Architect, it wouldn't make sense for a game on their mobile phone to be actually created by a ficitonal character). Wouldn't it be safe to assume that Architect's Plot Manipulation is reserved for his creation, and not the Real World in which he was born in? But here we have his Data Manipulation interfering with the mobile device of a person (the Player) from the Real World, which massively affects the ficitonal world of Shadow Fight, too (deletion of the game is deletion of the fictional verse). Does this whole thing deal with AP or Range, or both? Because riddle me this: if Architect's Plot Manipulation can casually affect a 2-B (even potentially 2-A) structure, but we can take it for granted that it would never be capable of affecting the Real World from which he comes (which is what a lot people on this forum believe to be just another universe contained within the 2-B / 2-A Shadow Fight game) no matter what (otherwise Architect Plot haxes the Player or world governments and does funny things), while another ability of Architect's (Data Manipulation) can in fact affect elements located in the Real World (such as mobile phones), then how would this quite immense superiority of Data Manipulation over Plot Manipulation be tiered? Plot Manipulation can affect the entire 2-A Shadow Fight cosmology, but it just so happens to not be capable of affecting some random universe contained within this bubble (whoopsie daisies, right?). But Data Manipulation can affect this random universe inside the 2-A bubble that a 2-A range / potency ability cannot affect even if it wanted to. Isn't this just Reality-Fiction Transcendence? How can an ability have more range / potency than a 2-A ability (of which from the perspective of the 2-A ability is impossible to reach), and not be ranked a tier above it?

 

[Antvasima]

Would "Low 2-C physically, Low 1-C via hax (such as plot and data manipulation)" be a reasonable solution?

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

Would "Low 2-C physically, Low 1-C via hax (such as plot and data manipulation)" be a reasonable solution?

This would be the best outcome for him, in my opinion. Because if we establish that the Real World is a Low 1-C structure, but scale him physically to such tier, then logically speaking he would be one of the weakest Low 1-C characters on the wiki. Why? Because (at least to me) it would be ridiculous to say that in his environment (the Real World) he would be capable of shooting lasers out of his chest or spawning tentacles out of his back, when it is established (or at least implied) that he is just a regular guy in the Real World who works on a mobile game, is its writer and believes himself to be some sort of film director and his fictional characters to be his actors. I recall seeing this topic in some R>F T thread about writer characters being some of the worst characters in their respective physical tiers, to the point where they are essentially reduced to bullies of lower-dimensional settings because they cannot stand their ground at all against non-writer characters in their physical category.

If we give him a "Low 2-C, possibly higher physically" tier (scaling to Tenerbis), at least we can say that we are indexing him as he appears in the event story - inside the world of Shadow Fight, where he is free to use whatever science-fantasy powers and abilities he wants because this is his personal playground where he can do anything he wishes (which includes being defeated by one of the fictional characters), but where he can still pull off Existence Erasure on a Low 1-C scale via his Data Manipulation (can delete the game from Real World mobile phones) and Plot Manipulation (the only ability outside of Data Manipulation that he should have access to while living in the Real World).

 

[Richard5128pm]

I was wondering, why shoudn't architect get "2-B, Possibly 2-A Physically" Tiering as well, scaling him to the void (his biggest creation so far).

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

I was wondering, why shoudn't architect get "2-B, Possibly 2-A Physically" Tiering as well, scaling him to the void (his biggest creation so far).

You do have a point. Not scaling to the Portal from Underworld but to the Void from SF3.

Though I'll be honest I don't really know how this can be compatible with Shadow's tier.

Because we assume the Underworld special / limited-time events take place before Shadow defeats Tenebris (since it is implied that Shadow walks through the Portal right after he defeats Tenebris, where he arrives in some alien world and doesn't have a way to go back to Earth), since all of those special events either take place in Sensei's dojo (such as Architect's event) or in the Underworld (the Eternals' cultists events).

Soo, do we scale Tenebris to Architect's tier off of Shadow? Or do we just consider that Architect wasn't taking the fight against Shadow seriously at all, and was clearly giving Shadow a chance at "impressing" him in combat? Because if his in-game health points are anything to go by, Architect is by a long shot the weakest opponent in the Underworld (and this is not because you as a player fight him alone unlike other Underworld opponents who are co-op multiplayer fights - since there are other single-player opponents such as Gatekeeper that have more total health than even Tenebris - a multiplayer fight).

I know in-game health points can be inconsistent and don't accurately portray a character's lore power level (such as Freeze Jr. to this day having the most amount of health points of all Underworld enemies), but I do think Architect's health points in this event are a nod to the fight not being taken seriously by Architect. I mean, think about it: this guy can do literally anything he wants in Shadow Fight. He can give himself the Eternals' gameplay abilities (and likely any other in-verse character's power), he can make Shadow talk just by imagining it in his head, he can rewrite the whole story and world of Shadow Fight if he feels like doing so. I'd wager him giving himself the highest amounts of health points shouldn't be an issue at all for him - but he doesn't do this because he wants Shadow to "defeat" him (and thus "impress" him) to give him a reason to not rewrite the story.

And consider this - the theme of Architect's event is Halloween-based. The formula for some Halloween events in Shadow Fight is that they are supposed to scare the good characters / protagonists by introducing some really haxed and broken characters that serve as the event's boss - characters that threaten the very existence of the world our protagonists live in. Even the weakest one (Morgana) of the Three Witch Sisters has spider familiars who can tangle the Web of Time (which is confirmed to be synonymous with the Threads of Fate) and affect the Eternals (even Fatum) in the process. Whisper is also another user of the Threads of Fate who was sealed off in another dimension because, unlike her little sister Fatum, she was extremelly reckless with the usage of the Threads of Fate and was even using it against her brothers and sisters. This brings us to Architect, who out of boredom decides to pay his fictional characters a visit during Halloween where he red-pills them with information regarding their essentially fictive existence and how they are simply not real, and then to make things worse for his characters he torments them with the threat that he will rewrite them and their world. Characters like Sensei obviously see Architect as just a madman who is spewing nonsense (this is an obvious coping mechanism if somebody came out and told you your life is all but a fake illusion and he is its creator), but inevitably becomes shocked by Architect's capability of making Shadow talk and this further twists the knife that Architect is not a madman after all and what he's saying is all true (and to further prove his legitimacy as the godhead of the world he also uses the Eternals' powers that are unique to them). So again, out of boredom Architect wanted to have some fun by scaring the ever-living shit out of his characters, but it's not like he was actually going to go through with his world-rewriting plan (because if he wanted to, he would've easily just done it), which means he wasn't even taking the fight against Shadow seriously - because if he was Shadow would've not stood a chance against him.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Soo, do we scale Tenebris to Architect's tier off of Shadow? Or do we just consider that Architect wasn't taking the fight against Shadow seriously at all, and was clearly giving Shadow a chance at "impressing" him in combat?

I'll be honest, I don't see a issue with Tenebris scaling to Architect's level, since they both play the role of "Creator", "Maker" and so on. Tenebris is also hinted to take role in creation of worlds as he is literally a part of the void, so I don't think it is far fetched for Tenebris. but as for the the Eternals and other underworld characters, I don't think they'd deserve this tier.

I know in-game health points can be inconsistent and don't accurately portray a character's lore power level (such as Freeze Jr. to this day having the most amount of health points of all Underworld enemies), but I do think Architect's health points in this event are a nod to the fight not being taken seriously by Architect. I mean, think about it: this guy can do literally anything he wants in Shadow Fight. He can give himself the Eternals' gameplay abilities (and likely any other in-verse character's power), he can make Shadow talk just by imagining it in his head, he can rewrite the whole story and world of Shadow Fight if he feels like doing so. I'd wager him giving himself the highest amounts of health points shouldn't be an issue at all for him - but he doesn't do this because he wants Shadow to "defeat" him (and thus "impress" him) to give him a reason to not rewrite the story.

hmmmm... but I also think the shild points are lower because this is a single player event (first ever, I guess). but if it was just to impress him in combat, how can we tackle "Strength = Durability" here? Because if we say architect was holding back heavily, it can still put shadow in the same tier but hella weaker than Architect.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

but I do think Architect's health points in this event are a nod to the fight not being taken seriously by Architect. I mean, think about it: this guy can do literally anything he wants in Shadow Fight. He can give himself the Eternals' gameplay abilities (and likely any other in-verse character's power), he can make Shadow talk just by imagining it in his head, he can rewrite the whole story and world of Shadow Fight if he feels like doing so. I'd wager him giving himself the highest amounts of health points shouldn't be an issue at all for him - but he doesn't do this because he wants Shadow to "defeat" him (and thus "impress" him) to give him a reason to not rewrite the story.

Literally my whole point.
Shadow doesn't defeats Architect naturally, that's why i rated Shadow to be atleast scaled to the Portals just like Tenebris.

Architect should definitely still qualified to get R>F (either if its the old tiering, or the new one, he still qualified to have R>F)

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

(either if its the old tiering, or the new one, he still qualified to have R>F)

The irony of this is that if a character qualifies for the old standards, he wouldn't qualify for the new ones. And if he qualifies for the new standards, he wouldn't qualify for the old ones. Basically he cannot qualify for both the old and new standards simultaneously.

And oh man if the old R>F standards were somewhat iffy in Architect's case, the new ones are a real kick in the balls for him.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

The irony of this is that if a character qualifies for the old standards, he wouldn't qualify for the new ones. And if he qualifies for the new standards, he wouldn't qualify for the old ones. Basically he cannot qualify for both the old and new standards simultaneously.

Oh, i see...

 

[Antvasima]

This would be the best outcome for him, in my opinion. Because if we establish that the Real World is a Low 1-C structure, but scale him physically to such tier, then logically speaking he would be one of the weakest Low 1-C characters on the wiki. Why? Because (at least to me) it would be ridiculous to say that in his environment (the Real World) he would be capable of shooting lasers out of his chest or spawning tentacles out of his back, when it is established (or at least implied) that he is just a regular guy in the Real World who works on a mobile game, is its writer and believes himself to be some sort of film director and his fictional characters to be his actors. I recall seeing this topic in some R>F T thread about writer characters being some of the worst characters in their respective physical tiers, to the point where they are essentially reduced to bullies of lower-dimensional settings because they cannot stand their ground at all against non-writer characters in their physical category.

If we give him a "Low 2-C, possibly higher physically" tier (scaling to Tenerbis), at least we can say that we are indexing him as he appears in the event story - inside the world of Shadow Fight, where he is free to use whatever science-fantasy powers and abilities he wants because this is his personal playground where he can do anything he wishes (which includes being defeated by one of the fictional characters), but where he can still pull off Existence Erasure on a Low 1-C scale via his Data Manipulation (can delete the game from Real World mobile phones) and Plot Manipulation (the only ability outside of Data Manipulation that he should have access to while living in the Real World).

I think that this solution seems fine to apply then.

@Elizhaa @Catzlaflame @ActuallySpaceMan42

What do you think?

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Because if we establish that the Real World is a Low 1-C structure, but scale him physically to such tier, then logically speaking he would be one of the weakest Low 1-C characters on the wiki. Why? Because (at least to me) it would be ridiculous to say that in his environment (the Real World) he would be capable of shooting lasers out of his chest or spawning tentacles out of his back, when it is established (or at least implied) that he is just a regular guy in the Real World who works on a mobile game, is its writer and believes himself to be some sort of film director and his fictional characters to be his actors. I recall seeing this topic in some R>F T thread about writer characters being some of the worst characters in their respective physical tiers, to the point where they are essentially reduced to bullies of lower-dimensional settings because they cannot stand their ground at all against non-writer characters in their physical category.

Low 1-C is treated as a 5Dimensional Structure now, does the Real World qualified for this?

 

[Richard5128pm]

Low 1-C is treated as a 5Dimensional Structure now, does the Real World qualified for this?

It does, but we're mainly focusing on Architect as he appears in the event, not when he is in the "Real world". That's why he's get 2-B or 2-A tier physically, and Low 1-C via hax (being able to delete the game from phones present in the real world).

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

It does, but we're mainly focusing on Architect as he appears in the event, not when he is in the "Real world". That's why he's get 2-B or 2-A tier physically, and Low 1-C via hax (being able to delete the game from phones present in the real world).

I know, i'm asking, is the "Real World" a 5-D Structure?

 

[GarrixianXD]

How is the Real World even a 5-D structure?