Tenebris 2-B Upgrade

[Richard5128pm]

Tenebris is The Father of all Eternals and The ruler of the Underworld, he is also mentioned as the physical embodiment of "the great empty void", the primordial void where universes are created (as stated by one of the official developers).

After defeating all the Eternals, Shadow and his crew get to the edge of reality, where Tenebris resides.

Tenebris explains that they are on the very edge of reality, beyond which lies the void in which worlds (universes, in this context) are born, and it is he who forged the light and darkness of them.

Explains that the portal (the great empty void) is terra incognito, the darkness in which worlds "can" be created. Then explains that shadow cannot create, but only destroy.

To further prove that Tenebris is the one who created those worlds, we should look at what Sensei says to Shadow when he gets the portal's power (tenebris' power), where it is made clear that Shadow gets to power to mold and shape reality, to create anew.

With the Russian version of Titan's dialogue, we come to know that the verse contains "thousands of worlds" each with it's own space time and events, as explained by the shadow doubles who are basically just evil versions of shadow from ones of many timelines in which titan conducted his experiments (Assassin, Master, Guru, Corsair, Emperor).

(Translated to English)

(English version)

Revealing the existence of thousands of universes, this would make Tenebris' "Forged the light and darkness of worlds" feat multiversal (2-B).

Conclusion:

Attack Potency: Multiverse level. (Forged the light and darkness of thousands of worlds)

Lifting Strength: Superhuman, at least class M (superior to megalith).

Striking Strength: Multiverse level.

Durability: Multiverse level.

As for the other underworld characters (like volcano, megalith, fatum, vortex), they too would have 2-B level AP via powescaling (keeping up with Shadow, who defeated Tenebris in battle).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A minor note; 1000 universes would be high end 2-C given baseline 2-B is 1001, but many worlds being the English localization should still inherently be 2-B. So this is alright.

 

[Richard5128pm]

A minor note; 1000 universes would be high end 2-C given baseline 2-B is 1001, but many worlds being the English localization should still inherently be 2-B. So this is alright.

Ah yes, if we count in the shadow world (titan's home universe) it'll be 1001 universes in total.

And one of countess' dialogues opens up the possibility of the verse containing "countless" timelines.

In the event, she states that she has killed a post-titan shadow countless times before (in countless timelines). Which would mean in each of those countless timelines, there exists a shadow who has killed titan, the same titan who has conducted shadow energy experiments on 1000 different universes.
Which means there are countless timelines in the verse, with each timeline having 1001 universes. A solid 2-B (Possibly 2-A?).

Shall I count your vote?

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

Agreed on this.

And to add a bit more detail to this, both Shadow Fight's official Facebook and VK pages made a post about 5 years ago during April Fools' Day regarding an update to Underworld's storyline. The Facebook post speaks about how Tenebris was struggling to calculate the amount of power he'd need to use against Shadow without destroying reality in the process, while the VK post simply talks about how beings of Tenebris' rank would inadvertently destroy reality if they ever were to fight Shadow one on one. Now all of this is just an April Fools' joke, obviously. But the "punchline" to this joke is supposed to be June from Shadow Fight 3 being implemented as a raid boss in the Underworld (which never happened), and not necessarily Tenebris' power level. These two posts give insight into what the writers think Tenebris is capable of.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Agreed on this.

Thanks for the input.

And to add a bit more detail to this, both Shadow Fight's official Facebook and VK pages made a post about 5 years ago during April Fools' Day regarding an update to Underworld's storyline. The Facebook post speaks about how Tenebris was struggling to calculate the amount of power he'd need to use against Shadow without destroying reality in the process, while the VK post simply talks about how beings of Tenebris' rank would inadvertently destroy reality if they ever were to fight Shadow one on one. Now all of this is just an April Fools' joke, obviously. But the "punchline" to this joke is supposed to be June from Shadow Fight 3 being implemented as a raid boss in the Underworld (which never happened), and not necessarily Tenebris' power level. These two posts give insight into what the writers think Tenebris is capable of.

"The Creator's powers have no boundaries, as time and space are his toys. He knows what will
happen to the world of Shadow Fight in years to come"

Could this grant him Nigh-Omniscience?

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

"The Creator's powers have no boundaries, as time and space are his toys. He knows what will
happen to the world of Shadow Fight in years to come"

Could this grant him Nigh-Omniscience?

Honestly I'd say the "time and space are his toys" quote in that paragraph would refer to his ability to BFR June out of the future and bring her to the present.

And the "He knows what will happen to the world of Shadow Fight in years to come" would be a given seeing as how he wields the Threads of Fate with better skill than even Fatum who is fate incarnate. And not to mention that the Witch Sisters' event story makes it clear that the Web of Time is synonymous with the Threads of Fate. Take it as you will in terms of intelligence, though it does sound like Nigh-Omniscience, at least for him.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Agreed.
Though, i want to add a little scans for this.
Great Void is Infinity, it could mean three things;
1. Infinite Size
2. Infinite World (As this structure is the first of all creation, and holding the World aswell that could pretty much be Infinite maybe?)
3. Or just both

 

[Richard5128pm]

Agreed.
Though, i want to add a little scans for this.
Great Void is Infinity, it could mean three things;
1. Infinite Size
2. Infinite World (As this structure is the first of all creation, and holding the World aswell that could pretty much be Infinite maybe?)
3. Or just both

Thanks

 

[Richard5128pm]

And the "He knows what will happen to the world of Shadow Fight in years to come" would be a given seeing as how he wields the Threads of Fate with better skill than even Fatum who is fate incarnate. And not to mention that the Witch Sisters' event story makes it clear that the Web of Time is synonymous with the Threads of Fate. Take it as you will in terms of intelligence, though it does sound like Nigh-Omniscience, at least for him.

Yes it does sound like nigh omniscience, plus it isn't too far fetched, given who he actually (The Father/Creator).

 

[Richard5128pm]

Agreed: @DarkDragonMedeus, Me, @Dashio_Tessai and @Jeeeeepil123

Neutral: None.

Disagreed: None.

Good to go?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tenebris is The Father of all Eternals and The ruler of the Underworld, he is also mentioned as the physical embodiment of "the great empty void", the primordial void where universes are created (as stated by one of the official developers).

Is that a Discord screenshot? I'd be very hesitant to accept anything like that as remotely solid evidence. Too easily faked. (No offense, but you've gotta understand that I say that because it has happened, often)

Tenebris explains that they are on the very edge of reality, beyond which lies the void in which worlds (universes, in this context) are born, and it is he who forged the light and darkness of them.

While not an unreasonable assumption, I do not know if they are universes yet, and you've provided no evidence as such. Is this an already accepted thing for the profiles and if so, could you show the relevant evidence for that, please, even if its just another CRT?

Explains that the portal (the great empty void) is terra incognito, the darkness in which worlds "can" be created. Then explains that shadow cannot create, but only destroy.

The use of the word "terra" further muddies the waters here. I wouldn't expect people to have a working knowledge of Latin, but that one's so basic and well known that I might glean that they do mean physical planets, since that's specifically what "terra" refers to- Earth, or ground.

With the Russian version of Titan's dialogue, we come to know that the verse contains "thousands of worlds" each with it's own space time and events, as explained by the shadow doubles who are basically just evil versions of shadow from ones of many timelines in which titan conducted his experiments (Assassin, Master, Guru, Corsair, Emperor).

(Translated to English)

Was this game originally made in Russian, and if not, why are we paying the Russian version any mind?

Anyhow.

My conclusion on all of this would not be the same as yours. Presuming all of the information in the OP to be correct, which is very possible depending on what I learn here, nothing here states that Tenebris did all of this with a single action. It seems more implied, in my view, that this was done repeatedly. That is, he made a world's "light and darkness", and then another, and then another, and so on. This is supported even further by the Sensei guy mentioning rewriting only this reality. From the given evidence alone, I'd rate this as Low 2-C over 2-B.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

Is that a Discord screenshot? I'd be very hesitant to accept anything like that as remotely solid evidence. Too easily faked. (No offense, but you've gotta understand that I say that because it has happened, often)

The scan comes from here. Almost 4 years ago when Shadow Fight was getting its ass whooped on the forums I reached out to this individual called Shadow Fighter on Discord. Back then, Shadow Fight did not have any official western Discord server, but its most popular fan server could be accessed through the main subreddit of the game, and the moderators of this server identified Shadow Fighter as one of the developers of the game. I asked around what role exactly Shadow Fighter had at the company, and everybody mentioned that he was more of a "messenger" of the developers than anything else. Regardless, I still gave it a shot and asked him directly in DMs this and that. This scan is one of the answers I got from him. And if you really want to check if this Shadow Fighter person is truly part of the developer team, you can always check out the official western Shadow Fight Discord server which was created somewhere in November of 2020. You'll see that he's got borderline developer roles and whatnot. His DMs are now closed to everybody, likely because he was getting bombarded with stupid powerscaling questions (not mine), so my old DMs with him are the only ones around now. He even is a moderator for Shadow Fight's official VK page. Hell, I'd be down to stream my Discord messages with him if it comes down to it.

So yeah, he is part of the developer team, but his exact role at the company remains vague, being simply refered to as a "messenger".

Was this game originally made in Russian, and if not, why are we paying the Russian version any mind?

In short, Yes.

In long, Nekki are based in Cyprus, but their partner company Banzai.Games are based in Moscow. The original creator of Shadow Fight and current CEO of Banzai.Games, Evgeniy Dyabin, is russian. The CEO for Nekki, Dmitry Terekhin, is russian. The CBDO for Nekki, Nikita Korzhavin, is russian. The writers of Shadow Fight 2 - Alex Kulagin, Vitaly Aleksashin, Oleg Martynov, Oleg Egorov, are all russian. The official VK page of SF casually gets more content and info dump about the series' development than all other western social medias of the verse combined. Comic books for the series based on Shadow Fight 2 are already being sold for a year now in russian only. Tabletop games and other merch of the franchise are being sold in the russian tongue and on russian soil mostly. Here's the localization team of Shadow Fight 3 making a blog about how they localized the game in 10 other languages, starting with Russian as a base.

Yeah I think that does it.

As for the rest, well, I'll let OP tackle the rest. It's their CRT after all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The scan comes from here. Almost 4 years ago when Shadow Fight was getting its ass whooped on the forums I reached out to this individual called Shadow Fighter on Discord. Back then, Shadow Fight did not have any official western Discord server, but its most popular fan server could be accessed through the main subreddit of the game, and the moderators of this server identified Shadow Fighter as one of the developers of the game. I asked around what role exactly Shadow Fighter had at the company, and everybody mentioned that he was more of a "messenger" of the developers than anything else. Regardless, I still gave it a shot and asked him directly in DMs this and that. This scan is one of the answers I got from him. And if you really want to check if this Shadow Fighter person is truly part of the developer team, you can always check out the official western Shadow Fight Discord server which was created somewhere in November of 2020. You'll see that he's got borderline developer roles and whatnot. His DMs are now closed to everybody, likely because he was getting bombarded with stupid powerscaling questions (not mine), so my old DMs with him are the only ones around now. He even is a moderator for Shadow Fight's official VK page. Hell, I'd be down to stream my Discord messages with him if it comes down to it.

So yeah, he is part of the developer team, but his exact role at the company remains vague, being simply refered to as a "messenger".

I wouldn't use that, then. "We heard this guy is a developer on the fan-made Discord but he won't tell us what he does or properly identify himself" doesn't seem like a solid source of evidence if it isn't already in the game.

In short, Yes.

In long, Nekki are based in Cyprus, but their partner company Banzai.Games are based in Moscow. The original creator of Shadow Fight and current CEO of Banzai.Games, Evgeniy Dyabin, is russian. The CEO for Nekki, Dmitry Terekhin, is russian. The CBDO for Nekki, Nikita Korzhavin, is russian. The writers of Shadow Fight 2 - Alex Kulagin, Vitaly Aleksashin, Oleg Martynov, Oleg Egorov, are all russian. The official VK page of SF casually gets more content and info dump about the series' development than all other western social medias of the verse combined. Comic books for the series based on Shadow Fight 2 are already being sold for a year now in russian only. Tabletop games and other merch of the franchise are being sold in the russian tongue and on russian soil mostly. Here's the localization team of Shadow Fight 3 making a blog about how they localized the game in 10 other languages, starting with Russian as a base.

Fair enough, then. I might pass that scan by a Russian friend of mine just to verify its accuracy, but it's fair to use Russian language shit.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

I wouldn't use that, then. "We heard this guy is a developer on the fan-made Discord but he won't tell us what he does or properly identify himself" doesn't seem like a solid source of evidence if it isn't already in the game.

Great Void is represent as Infinity, isn't that enough to make the Structure H3A atleast?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Great Void is represent as Infinity, isn't that enough to make the Structure H3A atleast?

I'd just want to see evidence of that before signing off on it.

 

[Richard5128pm]

While not an unreasonable assumption, I do not know if they are universes yet, and you've provided no evidence as such. Is this an already accepted thing for the profiles and if so, could you show the relevant evidence for that, please, even if its just another CRT?
The use of the word "terra" further muddies the waters here. I wouldn't expect people to have a working knowledge of Latin, but that one's so basic and well known that I might glean that they do mean physical planets, since that's specifically what "terra" refers to- Earth, or ground.

I assumed the provided scans are enough, but I'll provide additional evidence here, as I don't know of any CRTs made specifically for this.

There are two other dialogues / observation which would make it obvious that those "worlds" Tenebris talks about are indeed universes.
Basically, the underworld exists in tiers (tier 1, tier 2, tier 3)

Tier 1 is located somewhere on earth, as the eternals present in it are embodiments of planet-related elements (such as fire, Earth, fungus and water)

Tier 2 is somewhere closer to the edge of reality (where Tenebris resides), as we enter tier 2, sensei states that the universal laws that shadow is familiar with would cease to exist moving forward

the fact that universal laws stop working the second they get nearer to it clearly gives away the fact that the terra incognito that lies beyond the edge of reality doesn't deal with Earth or planets, as the word terra suggested.

And finally, tier 3 is the edge of reality, where we encounter Tenebris and the portal, beyond which lies the primordial void in which universes can be created.

Terra also refers to "territory", combining it with incognito, we'd get "Unknown territory" or "Dark territory" which is possibly what Tenebris is using to describe the great empty void.

Additionally, Tenebris himself drops the word "universe" when Shadow fails to defeat Tenebris and change the fate of his world. (when the player loses)
"You mortals reside to brute force to solve problems, but the universe doesn't work that way" (if I remember correctly)
(Unfortunately I wasn't able to get this scan, it isn't available in sf wiki and none of the gameplays in yt have that, it'd be better if anyone else in this thread can)

nothing here states that Tenebris did all of this with a single action. It seems more implied, in my view, that this was done repeatedly. That is, he made a world's "light and darkness", and then another, and then another, and so on. This is supported even further by the Sensei guy mentioning rewriting only this reality. From the given evidence alone, I'd rate this as Low 2-C over 2-B.

This one is tough, while it is true that none of these scans strongly suggest that Tenebris did it all in one go, sensei mentions only about rewriting this reality and stop the vicious cycle because the eternals have been killing mankind over and over for many times now and stated this to be a war between mankind and gods, and when he prays to one of the gods, he learns that all their fates have been already sealed by the creator (Tenebris) himself, which is why they want to defeat Tenebris and get to the portal (great empty void) where they get his powers, to prevent all this happening (by rewriting reality). So sensei's dialogue doesn't have much connection to Tenebris' overall potential.

So this one is kinda hard to boil down.

There's one thing, all timelines are chronologically at almost the same stage, we can look at the shadow doubles for example;
Our shadow starts by opening the gates and released the shadow demons into his world by accident, gets subjected to one of the most powerful emissions of shadow energy (titan's experiments), which causes him to lose his original body. Now he has to fight the shadow demons and get to the gates of shadow again, to reach the shadow world and get his body back. sensei and may join him in his journey to gain his body back. they aid him in defeating all shadow demons; Lynx (and his order of assassins), Hermit (and his school), Butcher (and his children), Wasp (and her group of pirates), Shogun (and his army).

All while retaining his mind, and not losing it to the shadow energy.

The shadow doubles on the other hand, did not have a strong enough will power to retain their minds for long enough, they too start to journey in the same way, same time, but they lose their mind to shadow energy and kill one of the shadow demons, before replacing the respective shadow demon
Lynx - Assassin (killed lynx and took over his order of assassins, then kills sensei and may)
Hermit - Master (Kills Hermit after gaining his secret, which he uses to run his own school now)
Butcher - Guru (Kills butcher and takes over his children)
Wasp - Corsair (Kills wasp and takes over her fleet)
Shogun - Emperor (Kills shogun and takes over his empire)

And these shadow doubles are from just few of many timelines in which titan has conducted his experiments via gates of shadows.

So, could these timelines chronologically being at the same period say anything about Tenebris creating them all at the same time?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tier 2 is somewhere closer to the edge of reality (where Tenebris resides), as we enter tier 2, sensei states that the universal laws that shadow is familiar with would cease to exist moving forward

I'm not sure I'd interpret "universal" here to relate to "universe". Rather, one feels this means that, essentially, all previously known rules will no longer apply here.

Therefore, I don't find this to be compelling evidence that these are different universes. Is there a statement or some such that would directly prove, without implications or inferences, that these are definitely, certainly, undeniably universes?

Additionally, Tenebris himself drops the word "universe" when Shadow fails to defeat Tenebris and change the fate of his world. (when the player loses)
"You mortals reside to brute force to solve problems, but the universe doesn't work that way" (if I remember correctly)
(Unfortunately I wasn't able to get this scan, it isn't available in sf wiki and none of the gameplays in yt have that, it'd be better if anyone else in this thread can)

I'm not doubting that a universe exists here- but what about this quote makes you believe that this is a series of universes? I'm not sure I understand how this helps this interpretation.

This one is tough, while it is true that none of these scans strongly suggest that Tenebris did it all in one go, sensei mentions only about rewriting this reality and stop the vicious cycle because the eternals have been killing mankind over and over for many times now and stated this to be a war between mankind and gods, and when he prays to one of the gods, he learns that all their fates have been already sealed by the creator (Tenebris) himself, which is why they want to defeat Tenebris and get to the portal (great empty void) where they get his powers, to prevent all this happening (by rewriting reality). So sensei's dialogue doesn't have much connection to Tenebris' overall potential.

So this one is kinda hard to boil down.

There's one thing, all timelines are chronologically at almost the same stage, we can look at the shadow doubles for example;
Our shadow starts by opening the gates and released the shadow demons into his world by accident, gets subjected to one of the most powerful emissions of shadow energy (titan's experiments), which causes him to lose his original body. Now he has to fight the shadow demons and get to the gates of shadow again, to reach the shadow world and get his body back. sensei and may join him in his journey to gain his body back. they aid him in defeating all shadow demons; Lynx (and his order of assassins), Hermit (and his school), Butcher (and his children), Wasp (and her group of pirates), Shogun (and his army).

All while retaining his mind, and not losing it to the shadow energy.

The shadow doubles on the other hand, did not have a strong enough will power to retain their minds for long enough, they too start to journey in the same way, same time, but they lose their mind to shadow energy and kill one of the shadow demons, before replacing the respective shadow demon
Lynx - Assassin (killed lynx and took over his order of assassins, then kills sensei and may)
Hermit - Master (Kills Hermit after gaining his secret, which he uses to run his own school now)
Butcher - Guru (Kills butcher and takes over his children)
Wasp - Corsair (Kills wasp and takes over her fleet)
Shogun - Emperor (Kills shogun and takes over his empire)

And these shadow doubles are from just few of many timelines in which titan has conducted his experiments via gates of shadows.

So, could these timelines chronologically being at the same period say anything about Tenebris creating them all at the same time?

I'm with you right up until the end of that first paragraph, and after that, I lose all notion of what it is you're talking about. I'm not trying to be rude, but I find it genuinely difficult to understand what it is you're getting at here.

If I had to summarize as best as I could: you seem to be talking about parallel realities and the people that come from them (shadows?) and generally using them as evidence of alternative realities being a thing. Taking that assumed meaning at face value for a moment, even if they were all real, legitimate alternate realities (a 2-B structure, perhaps), what evidence exists that relates to the original problem in this bit: what implies this was all one action to destroy it, rather than what seems to be the current implication- a process of destruction, a cycle of Low 2-C damage occurring repeatedly?

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

The use of the word "terra" further muddies the waters here. I wouldn't expect people to have a working knowledge of Latin, but that one's so basic and well known that I might glean that they do mean physical planets, since that's specifically what "terra" refers to- Earth, or ground.

Rather, "terra incognito" would refer to "unknown territory" and not necessarily to a planet or ground, at least in this context. The Portal is quite similar to Bleach's Garganta, where it's an emptiness that stretches out to infinity and devours anything that exists inside of it. But when Shadow and his team step through the Portal and manage to not get devoured by its emptiness, they eventually arrive on a different planet that is simply described as "another world" in the game (can't tell if it's another universe), which also has a similar Portal that connects to this infinite emptiness. And "terra incognito" was used by Tenebris to describe the infinite emptiness lurking beyond the Portal, as he was sure that Shadow wouldn't survive it, not the planet / other world Shadow arrived at after he crossed the emptiness.

So this infinite emptiness exists in the "background" of all worlds as a separate dimension. Some of those worlds have "cracks" in their reality (also simply known as Portals), which allow things from these worlds to enter this infinite emptiness dimension. And from this dimension one can travel to any other world that has a Portal. To simplify it, it's as if you're streaming down inside a tube that goes on forever, but every now and then you can spot holes in its walls. If you make a stop and go through one of those holes, you'll end up in a world. And via the hole you arrived through in this world you can go back into the tube and continue your endless journey up until you decide to enter another hole you find along the way, leading you to another world.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't follow Bleach, so I don't really glean anything from that comparison

I don't have much to reply to there, I'd agree with that definition of terra incognito (had never heard that usage of it before, so thank you for pointing it out) but the rest is more subjective and has less for me to evaluate.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I'm not sure I'd interpret "universal" here to relate to "universe". Rather, one feels this means that, essentially, all previously known rules will no longer apply here.

I mean, some of the fight locations in tier 2 are... abnormal to say the least. And moving forward from tier 2, we get "Random rules" in battle, rules like 'staying on the ground for long will kill you' or 'Inverted moves' (basically to increase difficulty for the player) and this too can be explained by universal laws ceasing to exist.

Therefore, I don't find this to be compelling evidence that these are different universes. Is there a statement or some such that would directly prove, without implications or inferences, that these are definitely, certainly, undeniably universes?
I'm not doubting that a universe exists here- but what about this quote makes you believe that this is a series of universes? I'm not sure I understand how this helps this interpretation.

Alright, what you're looking for is a "direct" statement (Like titan saying "I've conduced experiments on a thousand different realities"), Unfortunately shadow fight 2 isn't too direct about these stuff, every time they talk about universe(s) in shadow fight series, they cover it up with the word "world", as we see with Titan and Tenebris. Only with context behind them we'll know that "worlds" are implied to be universes.

Like, Tenebris resides at the edge of reality (edge of the universe) beyond which exists the infinite nothingness in which only universes can be born (planets in that context is too far fetched), but still he uses "worlds".

But when they're talking about "Earth/Planet", they'll have direct statements for it.

I'm with you right up until the end of that first paragraph, and after that, I lose all notion of what it is you're talking about. I'm not trying to be rude, but I find it genuinely difficult to understand what it is you're getting at here.
If I had to summarize as best as I could: you seem to be talking about parallel realities and the people that come from them (shadows?) and generally using them as evidence of alternative realities being a thing. Taking that assumed meaning at face value for a moment, even if they were all real, legitimate alternate realities (a 2-B structure, perhaps), what evidence exists that relates to the original problem in this bit: what implies this was all one action to destroy it, rather than what seems to be the current implication- a process of destruction, a cycle of Low 2-C damage occurring repeatedly?

I'll explain them in simpler words. Titan is from the shadow world (a different dimension) where he has conquered several planets, now he's trying to find a means for dimensional travel, travelling from dimension to another (to conquer the other one), the gates of shadow can open a rift from one dimension to another, but he couldn't physically travel through it, for which he needed a vessel (made of pure shadow energy), for which he has been shooting huge amounts shadow energy through the gates of shadows (if they are opened by someone, like shadow) hoping that someone with a powerful enough essence would walk through the gates. The shadow doubles were close (they were able to walk through the gates), but their essence wasn't enough/pure. And shadow is his only success, and therefore tries to take his essence, using which he can physically travel to thousands of different dimensions.

Now, These dimensions / universes (a 2-B structure) were all forged by Tenebris, that's where the idea of a 2-B Tenebris comes from.

nothing here states that Tenebris did all of this with a single action. It seems more implied, in my view, that this was done repeatedly. That is, he made a world's "light and darkness", and then another, and then another, and so on. This is supported even further by the Sensei guy mentioning rewriting only this reality. From the given evidence alone, I'd rate this as Low 2-C over 2-B.

As for this one, this is a grey area. Sensei mentions rewriting only this reality not because that's all he can do, but that's all they were there for, as I have explained in my previous reply. In this section

sensei mentions only about rewriting this reality and stop the vicious cycle because the eternals have been killing mankind over and over for many times now and stated this to be a war between mankind and gods, and when he prays to one of the gods, he learns that all their fates have been already sealed by the creator (Tenebris) himself, which is why they want to defeat Tenebris and get to the portal (great empty void) where they get his powers, to prevent all this happening (by rewriting reality). So sensei's dialogue doesn't have much connection to Tenebris' overall potential.

So, with no confirmation behind how exactly Tenebris did all this, we end up with a "Atleast low 2-C, Atmost 2-B" rating for him?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I hate to end all that discussion by stating this conclusion- as is often the case with Tier 2/1 threads, one always feels as though they are disappointing someone somehow- but I don't find the evidence of this all being universes too compelling. There are a lot of tiny fragments of evidence that run against that, and I don't think the justifications for them on the other side stack up quite right.

My evaluation is not all-encompassing, of course, and if you'd like to get a second staff member, then I would gladly wait. Furthermore, if it is more widely agreed that these are universes, I would accept your argument of "At least Low 2-C, at most 2-B", since at the moment my greater issue is with whether they're universes at all.

 

[Richard5128pm]

and if you'd like to get a second staff member, then I would gladly wait. Furthermore, if it is more widely agreed that these are universes, I would accept your argument of "At least Low 2-C, at most 2-B", since at the moment my greater issue is with whether they're universes at all.

I’m actually new to forum, but from what I’ve seen in all shadow fight profiles, they’re widely accepted here to be universes.
Alright, I feel like @Dashio_Tessai (shadow fight supporter) will do a better job at explaining how they’re indeed universes.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I’m actually new to forum, but from what I’ve seen in all shadow fight profiles, they’re widely accepted here to be universes.

While it is duly noted, this does not make it so. The mentality of the masses frequently is wrong about things. I've made my assessment, in the void of further, more conclusive evidence (which one of you told me directly does not exist), I wouldn't pivot from my current position.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

I’m actually new to forum, but from what I’ve seen in all shadow fight profiles, they’re widely accepted here to be universes.
Alright, I feel like @Dashio_Tessai (shadow fight supporter) will do a better job at explaining how they’re indeed universes.

I don't recall any profile on the wiki that even tackles the issue if they are universes or not. Actually, there's nothing I see that even suggests they are universes to begin with. They could be, but low-balling take priority in tiering. The way I read this statement in the biggest low-ball possible is Tenebris forged the light (stars) and darkness in the current Low 2-C universe, and then he created the planets of said universe (one at a time without any furhter proof). This is probably bigger than what he currently has going for him (4-B Solar System), since if he created the light of the universe at the same time with its darkness, that would imply all of the light was created in an instant (after all, you can't gradually forge darkness over time in a universe - you can only do it instantly). Darkness could mean the "rest" of the universe, which sounds like High 3-A to me.

This is still the biggest candidate for a Low 2-C Tenebris, personally. Possibly 2-B if you want to add a high-ball in his tiering (treating "reality" as the verse's whole cosmology).

I understand that Tenebris' design, role in the lore, rank in the hierarchy of beings, Lovecraftian cosmicism thematics leads one to believe that he's way more capable than what he's currently tiered at, but as it stands the amounts of vagueness coming from the usage of "worlds" is a huge kick in the balls for him on this Wiki because of how everything is being low-balled.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I don't recall any profile on the wiki that even tackles the issue if they are universes or not.

The profiles of shadow doubles mention them to be variants of shadow from other dimensions, which supports "titan conducted experiments on 1000 different dimensions".

Actually, there's nothing I see that even suggests they are universes to begin with. They could be, but low-balling take priority in tiering. The way I read this statement in the biggest low-ball possible is Tenebris forged the light (stars) and darkness in the current Low 2-C universe, and then he created the planets of said universe (one at a time without any furhter proof). This is probably bigger than what he currently has going for him (4-B Solar System), since if he created the light of the universe at the same time with its darkness, that would imply all of the light was created in an instant (after all, you can't gradually forge darkness over time in a universe - you can only do it instantly). Darkness could mean the "rest" of the universe, which sounds like High 3-A to me.

"Forging the light and darkness" could mean a 100 different things here, but given the context and what sensei has said, I'd say it isn't just creating stars and space, it looks more like he created those realities.

I understand that Tenebris' design, role in the lore, rank in the hierarchy of beings, Lovecraftian cosmicism thematics leads one to believe that he's way more capable than what he's currently tiered at, but as it stands the amounts of vagueness coming from the usage of "worlds" is a huge kick in the balls for him on this Wiki because of how everything is being low-balled.

I understand the vagueness of the word "worlds" but the shadow doubles are enough proof for the cosmos to have atleast 7 universes in total (main universe, shadow world and the shadow doubles' universes)

Which'd give Tenebris "Low 2-C, at most 2-C" rating. (we're still lowballing all statements and ignoring majority of the context, but going lower than this is too much)

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

The profiles of shadow doubles mention them to be variants of shadow from other dimensions, which supports "titan conducted experiments on 1000 different dimensions".

Yes they are from alternate timelines but should we assume that Tenebris had anything to do with their creation to begin with? He doesn't state that he created all the worlds, only that he created worlds.

"Forging the light and darkness" could mean a 100 different things here, but given the context and what sensei has said, I'd say it isn't just creating stars and space, it looks more like he created those realities.

"All the power to mold and shape reality like fresh clay, to create anew." Am I seriously reaching if I were to assume that Sensei was referring to him and Shadow gaining basic level Reality Warping which does not work on an actual Universal+ scale? Because last time I checked reality warpers (on this wiki at least) are not granted a Low 2-C tier by default just because they can manipulate the element that is reality. "Reality" in "Reality Warping" does not refer to warping the entire cosmology of a verse which admittedly falls under the unbrella term that is "Reality". It only refers to manipulating Reality as an element on various local scales, and only the greatest of reality warpers use this ability on a Universal+ scale (and above) to be granted a Low 2-C tier via this ability. If Sensei were to say "mold and shape all of reality" I would've taken it for a Universal+ RW potency at the least.

"to create anew. -> To stop this vicious cycle." With the "vicious cycle" being the destruction of humanity and cleansing of the planet Earth every few millenia by the Eternals, who do this every time humanity taints the Earth with their conflicts or vices (like Shadow opening the Gates of Shadows this time around). The Eternals are only ever concerned about the Earth's state, and not about whatever some aliens could be doing to other planets somewhere in outer space. If the Earth is cleansed / purified of said vices, then the Eternals return to their slumber and heavily reduce their influence over the planet. And so by "create anew" Sensei was rather refering to recreating Earth using local-scale Reality Warping powers from the Portal in order to calm the Eternals down and live in harmony with them forever now that they (Shadow and Sensei - humans) can easily undo theirs and humanity's tainting of the Earth with said RW. It helps the fact that such dialogue comes from the ending which rewards Shadow with the "Crown of Harmony" helmet. Otherwise, why would Sensei even consider it necessary to remodel the entire universe to stop the vicious cycle between humanity and Eternals, when clearly the whole problem stems only from the state of the planet Earth.

I understand the vagueness of the word "worlds" but the shadow doubles are enough proof for the cosmos to have atleast 7 universes in total (main universe, shadow world and the shadow doubles' universes)

Which are still not confirmed to be created by Tenebris at all because, once again, he never states that he created all the worlds out there, only that he created worlds end of.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Yes they are from alternate timelines but should we assume that Tenebris had anything to do with their creation to begin with? He doesn't state that he created all the worlds, only that he created worlds.
Which are still not confirmed to be created by Tenebris at all because, once again, he never states that he created all the worlds out there, only that he created worlds end of.

Sure he didn't say he created "all" worlds, but still creating world"s" is still a "at most 2-C" thing. And he clearly isn't talking about planets of one universe, as he's specifically talking about the "worlds" which are created in the void. what do you think?

"All the power to mold and shape reality like fresh clay, to create anew." Am I seriously reaching if I were to assume that Sensei was referring to him and Shadow gaining basic level Reality Warping which does not work on an actual Universal+ scale? Because last time I checked reality warpers (on this wiki at least) are not granted a Low 2-C tier by default just because they can manipulate the element that is reality. "Reality" in "Reality Warping" does not refer to warping the entire cosmology of a verse which admittedly falls under the unbrella term that is "Reality". It only refers to manipulating Reality as an element on various local scales, and only the greatest of reality warpers use this ability on a Universal+ scale (and above) to be granted a Low 2-C tier via this ability. If Sensei were to say "mold and shape all of reality" I would've taken it for a Universal+ RW potency at the least.

"to create anew. -> To stop this vicious cycle." With the "vicious cycle" being the destruction of humanity and cleansing of the planet Earth every few millenia by the Eternals, who do this every time humanity taints the Earth with their conflicts or vices (like Shadow opening the Gates of Shadows this time around). The Eternals are only ever concerned about the Earth's state, and not about whatever some aliens could be doing to other planets somewhere in outer space. If the Earth is cleansed / purified of said vices, then the Eternals return to their slumber and heavily reduce their influence over the planet. And so by "create anew" Sensei was rather refering to recreating Earth using local-scale Reality Warping powers from the Portal in order to calm the Eternals down and live in harmony with them forever now that they (Shadow and Sensei - humans) can easily undo theirs and humanity's tainting of the Earth with said RW. It helps the fact that such dialogue comes from the ending which rewards Shadow with the "Crown of Harmony" helmet. Otherwise, why would Sensei even consider it necessary to remodel the entire universe to stop the vicious cycle between humanity and Eternals, when clearly the whole problem stems only from the state of the planet Earth.

Yeah, local scale RW checks fine.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I guess this discussion is still left open...?

This is still the biggest candidate for a Low 2-C Tenebris, personally. Possibly 2-B if you want to add a high-ball in his tiering (treating "reality" as the verse's whole cosmology).

I did see this in architect's profile (where he currently scales from tenerbis), then I got a question, why wasn't he given a "High 3-A, Possibly 2-B" tier.
It would be a highball if we assume "Reality = Whole cosmos" on our own, but even the writers of sf do treat it that way, so I guess it isn't a highball.
what do you think?

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

I did see this in architect's profile (where he currently scales from tenerbis), then I got a question, why wasn't he given a "High 3-A, Possibly 2-B" tier.
It would be a highball if we assume "Reality = Whole cosmos" on our own, but even the writers of sf do treat it that way, so I guess it isn't a highball.
what do you think?

The "higher" refers to the multiple interpretations and tiers that come with them. "Which should at least refer to the boundless universe in which Shadow resides [1, 2, 3][9]" (Low 2-C), "if not possibly the rest of the world which includes at least thousands of alternative timelines [1, 2, 3][10]" (2-C. the "thousands" is likely a mistake in that phrase since I was quoting the word in its singular form, rather than plural), "up to a countless amount [1][11]" (2-B / 2-A).

Unless you'd wish for "possibly higher" to be changed into "possibly at most 2-B" (since "countless" is not considered enough evidence to assume a 2-A (infinite) number is being mentioned). To which I'd say sure, why not.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Unless you'd wish for "possibly higher" to be changed into "possibly at most 2-B" (since "countless" is not considered enough evidence to assume a 2-A (infinite) number is being mentioned). To which I'd say sure, why not.

Sure, I mean, possibly higher is when you have "Possibly (two or three) higher tiers" but since the multiverse having just 1000 universes (2-C) isn't possible (countess' dialogue makes it way bigger), leaving us with only 2-B. So changing "Possibly higher" to "Possibly at most 2-B" would make it clearer. Also, his profile is way too outdated (still at solar), would be better if we update his profile while updating architect's and shadow's profile.