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Two franchises that were Toriyama influenced. Serge has the Chrono Trigger. Not the Cross (i.e. that 2-A thing that threatens most in the tier if he can get it off). Speed equalized.
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Serge (Chrono Cross) vs Goku (DBS)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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Serge via Time Manipulation.
Also before anyone complains about Goku being resistant to Time Stop. This is only as SSJBKKx10.
Also before anyone complains about Goku being resistant to Time Stop. This is only as SSJBKKx10.
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What is Serge's time manip capable of doing?
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The profile only says "Resistance to Time Stop as SSJBKKx10" x20 likely also is, but UI is a completely different form.
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why wouldnt UIO goku have same or better (akin to jiren's possibly) resistence to time stop? in db if you get stronger you resist what you did before reguardless of form, and it wasnt having god essense that made him resist otherwise being blue would do that, goku went through time stop through sheer powering up above hit's capabilities, nothing about being in kaioken form in itself as its just a base boost to its blue's power, UIO profile says he has "all previous abilities" plus his new ones.
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UIO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSB + Kaioken
Not even an argument
Not even an argument
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lol that's like saying Goku is resistant to existence erasure, electricity and empathic manipulation only in base, not in UI.
Higher transformations don't take away previous resistances. It's also written on his profile "all previous abilities, additionally..."
Higher transformations don't take away previous resistances. It's also written on his profile "all previous abilities, additionally..."
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So...anyone have a vote, or...
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I think this is currently a bit more relevant, if Goku is only resistant to the Time Stop form of Time Manipulation. What forms of Time Manipulation does Serge have with only the Chrono Trigger & not the Chrono Cross? Off the top of my head, I can remember something about merging timelines, but that's with the Chrono Cross, isn't it?Bluetrekking said:
Maybe the Time Shifter? But that just slows down & fast forwards time, & this is Speed Equalized anyway. Plus it affects both Serge & his opponents, IIRC.
In any case, my vote goes to Serge. It's OoC for Goku to abuse his flight & range, & he'd probably go for close combat. Even if he did, Serge has some capacity to stall, he can heal, & both of them have universal range anyway.
Not to mention, depending on what elements he has, he has various forms of status ailments to inflict, & I think there are some elements that manipulate statistics. I mean, I don't know which we're counting, nor do I know which we treat Serge as capable of, but still....
http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Chrono_Cross_Elements
There's a lot of possibilities.
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Goku fra
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Goku doesn't have a vote...
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Goku with time resistance, existance erasure resistence and superior skill
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While skill has value, I'm unsure Goku's Time Manipulation Resistance & Existence Erasure Existence are relevant here. I'm unsure what Serge's Time Manipulation is, but AFAIK, it's based on the use of the Chrono Trigger or Chrono Cross items.Kyle Ramos said:
I'd think, in-characters his Elements are Serge's first resort in combat, maybe 2nd when we account for his melee weapon.
And while Goku is a skilled fighter, he isn't as versatile. Even ignoring the unacknowledged-in-his-profile Statistics Manipulation some elements offer, Serge can inflict a variety of statuses on Goku, is able to heal himself, & create Black Holes.
Superior Skill is less useful when your opponent is nearly on par with you in AP, Durability, Speed, close in stamina, & has a variety of options to cripple you & several options to heal themselves. Not to mention the utility his summons offer.
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My mistake. The point was, his Time Manipulation -which I'm still unsure as to what exactly it is- is still based on an item that Serge may not be likely to choose in combat, & probably isn't something he'd be depending on to have a chance.AKM sama said:
Nonetheless, I'd still say Serge has a considerable advantage vis his versatility in spite of Goku's resistance to Time Manipulation & Existence Erasure.
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Goku can still trick him with after images
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Even if Goku does expect them & dodges, in a Speed Equalized fight, given that this is likely close combat, as Goku tends to favor it, that's not a guarantee. He may think they're typical ki/energy/elemental attacks & try to block or swat them away.Kyle Ramos said:
Even if he does block an attack, like ripping open the plant monster Carnivore uses, it doesn't guarantee Poison won't be inflicted on him. Some aren't as easy to dodge, given Inferno is just rapidly heating the air & can Burn. Meteor Shower & Holy Light can all inflict Fatigue on Goku if they connect
Not to mention even if Goku is constantly dodging in this Speed Equalized match, & avoiding getting Status Ailments, Serge can still affect himself, buffing his own stats with his Elements.
Like raising his own evasiveness with Nimble, his physical defense with HiRes, his Accuracy with EagleEye, his physical attack power with Strengthen, his magical attack power with Genius, & although it may not be relevant, his Magical Defense with StrongMinded. He can also raise the offensive power of his Elements with Magnify.
Nevermind the possibility of Serge hitting Goku with the debuff versions of those Statistics Manipulation Elements.
In theory, Serge could also attempt removing Goku's Soul from his body with HellSoul, or literally just sending Goku to Hell with HellBound to win by BFR.
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Goku wins this baby
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First off, Goku does not one-shot. Have you even read their profiles?Therefir said:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Son_Goku_(Dragon_Ball_Super)
Goku has Universe level+ Attack Potency.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Serge_(Chrono_Cross)
Serge's Durability is listed as "Universe level+ with the Chrono Trigger ". And if you read the opening post, you'd note that Serge does have the Chrono Trigger in this match.
And the BFR & Soul Manipulation come from the elements I mentioned. Any character in Chrono Cross is able to equip & use the elements (HellSoul & HellBound) that employ those, including Serge, meaning if he showed up with them equipped, he'd have access to them.
And no, they aren't listed in his profile, but our other Chrono Cross character profile Harle on our Wiki lists all the elements she has access to, even ones not of her innate colour.
Serge's restrictions on Elements equipping are hardly any different than Harle's, other than Harle having access to Black Innates, & Serge having access to elements for White Innates. Almost all of Serge's Healing & Elemental Manipulation, Status Effect Inducement, & Summoning come from his access to Elements.
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@Therefir:
"After getting stronger than he previously was against Jiren, he managed to defeat Kefla with a single full powered, albeit last resort, Kamehameha."
That was a full-powered, & last resort attack. Odds are, Kefla wasn't at full strength, either. From her own profile's durability rating: "Universe level+ (When in SSJ2, she was capable of taking full attacks from an Ultra Instinct empowered Goku, although she was later instantaneously defeated by a last-ditch Kamehameha)".
Kefla took full attacks from UI Goku & it wasn't until he used a full-power kamehameha that she went down. I wouldn't be certain she wasn't at full stamina when that hit, especially given the huge beam attack she was firing when it landed.
Serge is on roughly the same level of durability, & it's not guaranteed he'll HIT Serge in Speed Equalized; Goku hit Kefla because she was busy firing her own charged beam attack, but Goku used IT or Rapid Movement (I don't remember exactly which it was.) to evade her beam & fire on her while she was firing from an angle that avoided her beam attack.
Goku may not have the same luxury here of getting the considerable time to charge up his full-powered kamehameha, & have Serge be standing still to fire his attack at him.
Even if Serge DOESN'T dodge & does get hit, again, Goku's full-powered, charged up attack defeated someone who had taken full attacks from UI Goku already. Furthermore, Serge may have buffed his durability by the point in the fight Goku resorts to a kamehameha, or heal himself after the attack. Not to mention, what indication is there that Serge is on an equal or lower level of Universe level+ durability than Kefla?
"After getting stronger than he previously was against Jiren, he managed to defeat Kefla with a single full powered, albeit last resort, Kamehameha."
That was a full-powered, & last resort attack. Odds are, Kefla wasn't at full strength, either. From her own profile's durability rating: "Universe level+ (When in SSJ2, she was capable of taking full attacks from an Ultra Instinct empowered Goku, although she was later instantaneously defeated by a last-ditch Kamehameha)".
Kefla took full attacks from UI Goku & it wasn't until he used a full-power kamehameha that she went down. I wouldn't be certain she wasn't at full stamina when that hit, especially given the huge beam attack she was firing when it landed.
Serge is on roughly the same level of durability, & it's not guaranteed he'll HIT Serge in Speed Equalized; Goku hit Kefla because she was busy firing her own charged beam attack, but Goku used IT or Rapid Movement (I don't remember exactly which it was.) to evade her beam & fire on her while she was firing from an angle that avoided her beam attack.
Goku may not have the same luxury here of getting the considerable time to charge up his full-powered kamehameha, & have Serge be standing still to fire his attack at him.
Even if Serge DOESN'T dodge & does get hit, again, Goku's full-powered, charged up attack defeated someone who had taken full attacks from UI Goku already. Furthermore, Serge may have buffed his durability by the point in the fight Goku resorts to a kamehameha, or heal himself after the attack. Not to mention, what indication is there that Serge is on an equal or lower level of Universe level+ durability than Kefla?
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No, stop it. Goku didn't fully utilize UI whilst attacking Kefla and as such, his attacks were inadequate. She never actually took the full brunt of his power until that last Kamehameha, which is a Goku that's already running low on stamina as shown when he immediately drops Ultra Instinct after. Not to mention you're COMPLETELY disregarding the advantage that Ultra Instinct affords; Goku didn't even NEED to think about dodging and only got grazed (not even one that drew blood) once and cut his hair a little at the tip whilst charging a fully powered Kamehameha.
Also Goku GRINDED on Kefla's Beam with his charged Kamehameha until he was above her then fired it on her. I don't know how you'd forget one of the best scenes in DBS. He never used rapid movement or Instant Transmission against Kefla.
Edit: This post may have been a little hostile, but I needed to get that out. The profiles have a lot of missing information with a lot of context required
Also Goku GRINDED on Kefla's Beam with his charged Kamehameha until he was above her then fired it on her. I don't know how you'd forget one of the best scenes in DBS. He never used rapid movement or Instant Transmission against Kefla.
Edit: This post may have been a little hostile, but I needed to get that out. The profiles have a lot of missing information with a lot of context required
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Imaginym wrote: -That was a full-powered, & last resort attack. Odds are, Kefla wasn't at full strength, either. From her own profile's durability rating: "Universe level+ (When in SSJ2, she was capable of taking full attacks from an Ultra Instinct empowered Goku, although she was later instantaneously defeated by a last-ditch Kamehameha)".-
Kefla indeed was at full strength, even stronger than before because some people from the universe 7 says that Kefla can kill Goku with her attacks.
-Kefla took full attacks from UI Goku & it wasn't until he used a full-power kamehameha that she went down. I wouldn't be certain she wasn't at full stamina when that hit, especially given the huge beam attack she was firing when it landed.-
This was explained in the episode, Goku attacks aren't effectiveness enough, once again when is stated that she wasn't at full stamina.
-Serge is on roughly the same level of durability, & it's not guaranteed he'll HIT Serge in Speed Equalized; Goku hit Kefla because she was busy firing her own charged beam attack, but Goku used IT or Rapid Movement (I don't remember exactly which it was.) to evade her beam & fire on her while she was firing from an angle that avoided her beam attack.-
Serge is not in the same level of durability, he is baseline low 2-C.
-Goku may not have the same luxury here of getting the considerable time to charge up his full-powered kamehameha, & have Serge be standing still to fire his attack at him.-
Goku was seriously weakened against Kefla, that's why he needs to charge a fully-powered kamehameha, but in this battle Goku doesn't have this weakness.
-Even if Serge DOESN'T dodge & does get hit, again, Goku's full-powered, charged up attack defeated someone who had taken full attacks from UI Goku already. Furthermore, Serge may have buffed his durability by the point in the fight Goku resorts to a kamehameha, or heal himself after the attack. Not to mention, what indication is there that Serge is on an equal or lower level of Universe level+ durability than Kefla?-
Kefla took attacks from UI Goku because he is stronger than the previous UI Goku, also you seen to forgot that Goku have reactive evolution, that buff his durabilty and attack potency over the time, so Serge's stats amplification wouldn't give him the advantage, and the indication that serge is lower level of universe level+ than Kefla, is because he is baseline Universe level+, while Kefla is stronger than people who is stronger than people who are baseline Universe level+.
Kefla indeed was at full strength, even stronger than before because some people from the universe 7 says that Kefla can kill Goku with her attacks.
-Kefla took full attacks from UI Goku & it wasn't until he used a full-power kamehameha that she went down. I wouldn't be certain she wasn't at full stamina when that hit, especially given the huge beam attack she was firing when it landed.-
This was explained in the episode, Goku attacks aren't effectiveness enough, once again when is stated that she wasn't at full stamina.
-Serge is on roughly the same level of durability, & it's not guaranteed he'll HIT Serge in Speed Equalized; Goku hit Kefla because she was busy firing her own charged beam attack, but Goku used IT or Rapid Movement (I don't remember exactly which it was.) to evade her beam & fire on her while she was firing from an angle that avoided her beam attack.-
Serge is not in the same level of durability, he is baseline low 2-C.
-Goku may not have the same luxury here of getting the considerable time to charge up his full-powered kamehameha, & have Serge be standing still to fire his attack at him.-
Goku was seriously weakened against Kefla, that's why he needs to charge a fully-powered kamehameha, but in this battle Goku doesn't have this weakness.
-Even if Serge DOESN'T dodge & does get hit, again, Goku's full-powered, charged up attack defeated someone who had taken full attacks from UI Goku already. Furthermore, Serge may have buffed his durability by the point in the fight Goku resorts to a kamehameha, or heal himself after the attack. Not to mention, what indication is there that Serge is on an equal or lower level of Universe level+ durability than Kefla?-
Kefla took attacks from UI Goku because he is stronger than the previous UI Goku, also you seen to forgot that Goku have reactive evolution, that buff his durabilty and attack potency over the time, so Serge's stats amplification wouldn't give him the advantage, and the indication that serge is lower level of universe level+ than Kefla, is because he is baseline Universe level+, while Kefla is stronger than people who is stronger than people who are baseline Universe level+.
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Fair enough. I admit, it was poor form of me to forget how that scene played out. But first off, Goku is still Universe Level+, even as UI Omen. Second off, that doesn't guarantee that just because he one-shot Kefla doesn't guarantee he's on a sufficient level to one-shot Serge. Do we know even rough values on where in that tier each stands? The range of Universe Level Attack Potency is "7.11 TenaexaFoe to any higher finite number".
And, if my memory serves, it isn't In-Character for Goku to start a fight with Kamehameha, & he may not even start by unleashing a full-powered kamehameha, which affords time for Serge to employ his elements, such as to heal, buff his durability, evasiveness, etc.
& in a speed equalized match, I don't think it's guaranteed the attack will hit, if Goku did have the time to charge his attacks. Serge isn't unfamiliar with charged beam attacks (PhotonBeam, an Element of his own Innate colour is one.) & with the Chrono Trigger, is able, to, as his profile says "Can witness the events of every timeline at once". Assuming that he can apply this to events in this fight, this can likely give him a fair shot at dodging the attack, even if he doesn't prepare for it.
And, if my memory serves, it isn't In-Character for Goku to start a fight with Kamehameha, & he may not even start by unleashing a full-powered kamehameha, which affords time for Serge to employ his elements, such as to heal, buff his durability, evasiveness, etc.
& in a speed equalized match, I don't think it's guaranteed the attack will hit, if Goku did have the time to charge his attacks. Serge isn't unfamiliar with charged beam attacks (PhotonBeam, an Element of his own Innate colour is one.) & with the Chrono Trigger, is able, to, as his profile says "Can witness the events of every timeline at once". Assuming that he can apply this to events in this fight, this can likely give him a fair shot at dodging the attack, even if he doesn't prepare for it.
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Actually I'm fairly sure Goku was just using Kefla as a guinea pig for him to master UI more. That's just headcanon, but Goku as noted to be much less adept at using UI in attack formations and would try to improve UI.
And I also think you're forgetting that Goku is very much used to fighting people above his own pay grade. And then again, you're kind of missing the point man. If Serge is only baseline level, Goku would most definitely be superior. Kefla could punk the guy (Goku) who was superior to Infinite Zamasu who was then punked by Goku in a flawed state of UI.
Edit: Now this might just be me, but a bunch of people agrees that Basically AutoDodging>Precognition. Goku has superior dodging feats in UI anyways, so...
And I also think you're forgetting that Goku is very much used to fighting people above his own pay grade. And then again, you're kind of missing the point man. If Serge is only baseline level, Goku would most definitely be superior. Kefla could punk the guy (Goku) who was superior to Infinite Zamasu who was then punked by Goku in a flawed state of UI.
Edit: Now this might just be me, but a bunch of people agrees that Basically AutoDodging>Precognition. Goku has superior dodging feats in UI anyways, so...
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Well, seeing Serge's feat, it looks like he is baseline low 2-C, also UI Goku always try to end his oponent as fast as possibly, if Goku can one-shot Serge, then his healing wouln't be useful, buffing his durability wouldn't give him the advantange, because Goku have a pasive reactive evolution, that means that his durability and attack potency grows over the time.Imaginym said:
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UI Omen Goku is also Low 2-C, though, &, not to say that Serge's higher keys are relevant in this match, but Goku doesn't have any higher keys than Low 2-C.
The few times Goku has been Ultra Instinct, he's been in the tournament of power, & serious in large part because his home universe was at risk of being erased, no? I'd assume it's not because he's fighting instinctually. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultra_Instinct_"Omen"
It's not necessarily true that Goku is required to be unconscious in that form, no? Isn't Goku's usual personality to... build up the intensity in the fight, which he'd be likely to do if he was self-aware, even if his body was acting independent of his thought?
Obviously, my memory of episodes isn't perfect, but even in such a form, IIRC, his main tactics were going for melee attacks, both against Jiren & Kefla, no. Not to use a full-power Kamehameha from the get-go, or even as soon as he entered the form?
(Technically speaking, Serge is also able to equip -among others- a few gravity manipulating techs likeFreeFall . Assuming his Universe+ Level AP means he can use them on a sufficient level to impede Goku's movement. Serge's elements can also manipulate evasiveness & accuracy, which may be able to influence what hits or doesn't.)
Not to mention, I'd argue a durability buff could be an advantage; If Goku expends a large portion of his energy on a big kamehameha or lots of attacks that fail to take out Serge due to his buffed durability or defenses, Goku's facing a considerable stamina loss & Serge may be able to heal the damage off.
Stamina issues are worsened by Serge already being able to inflict fatigued status on Goku with Meteor Shower, HolyLight & PhotonBeam which can influence the Fatigued status, which could further impair Goku trying to attack at full power.
The few times Goku has been Ultra Instinct, he's been in the tournament of power, & serious in large part because his home universe was at risk of being erased, no? I'd assume it's not because he's fighting instinctually. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultra_Instinct_"Omen"
It's not necessarily true that Goku is required to be unconscious in that form, no? Isn't Goku's usual personality to... build up the intensity in the fight, which he'd be likely to do if he was self-aware, even if his body was acting independent of his thought?
Obviously, my memory of episodes isn't perfect, but even in such a form, IIRC, his main tactics were going for melee attacks, both against Jiren & Kefla, no. Not to use a full-power Kamehameha from the get-go, or even as soon as he entered the form?
(Technically speaking, Serge is also able to equip -among others- a few gravity manipulating techs likeFreeFall . Assuming his Universe+ Level AP means he can use them on a sufficient level to impede Goku's movement. Serge's elements can also manipulate evasiveness & accuracy, which may be able to influence what hits or doesn't.)
Not to mention, I'd argue a durability buff could be an advantage; If Goku expends a large portion of his energy on a big kamehameha or lots of attacks that fail to take out Serge due to his buffed durability or defenses, Goku's facing a considerable stamina loss & Serge may be able to heal the damage off.
Stamina issues are worsened by Serge already being able to inflict fatigued status on Goku with Meteor Shower, HolyLight & PhotonBeam which can influence the Fatigued status, which could further impair Goku trying to attack at full power.
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-UI Omen Goku is also Low 2-C, though, &, not to say that Serge's higher keys are relevant in this match, but Goku doesn't have any higher keys than Low 2-C.-
UI Goku is far stronger than baselines Low 2-C like Serge, and in this thread Serge's higher keys are restricted so he can't use it.
-The few times Goku has been Ultra Instinct, he's been in the tournament of power, & serious in large part because his home universe was at risk of being erased, no? I'd assume it's not because he's fighting instinctually. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultra_Instinct_"Omen"-
Goku try to end his opponent fast not because his universe was in risk of being erased, but because UI have a time limit.
-It's not necessarily true that Goku is required to be unconscious in that form, no? Isn't Goku's usual personality to... build up the intensity in the fight, which he'd be likely to do if he was self-aware, even if his body was acting independent of his thought?-
Like I said before, Goku will go all out like he did against Jiren in order to win, this is because UI has a time limit.
-Obviously, my memory of episodes isn't perfect, but even in such a form, IIRC, his main tactics were going for melee attacks, both against Jiren & Kefla, no. Not to use a full-power Kamehameha from the get-go, or even as soon as he entered the form?-
Goku doesn't need a full power kamehameha to defeat Serge, you have to realize that Kefla is stronger than Serge, and even without that Goku's physical attacks can send kefla flying several meters away.
-(Technically speaking, Serge is also able to equip -among others- a few gravity manipulating techs likeFreeFall . Assuming his Universe+ Level AP means he can use them on a sufficient level to impede Goku's movement. Serge's elements can also manipulate evasiveness & accuracy, which may be able to influence what hits or doesn't.)-
I don't know if this techs can affect low 2-C beings, anyway Serge being able to manipulate his evasiveness and accuracy is probably a gameplay mechanic, if not I'm pretty sure Goku's ultra instinct can counter this.
-Not to mention, I'd argue a durability buff could be an advantage; If Goku expends a large portion of his energy on a big kamehameha or lots of attacks that fail to take out Serge due to his buffed durability or defenses, Goku's facing a considerable stamina loss & Serge may be able to heal the damage off.-
Goku doesn't need a full power Kamehameha, he use it against Kefla because he was tired and it would be his last kamehameha before UI runs out, also he is extremely tired because his fight against Jiren, so here he shouldn't suffer any stamina issues since we are using a fresh Goku.
-Stamina issues are worsened by Serge already being able to inflict fatigued status on Goku with Meteor Shower, HolyLight & PhotonBeam which can influence the Fatigued status, which could further impair Goku trying to attack at full power.-
Like before, Goku shouldn't have any stamina issues here, and probably UI has a time limit because of this.
UI Goku is far stronger than baselines Low 2-C like Serge, and in this thread Serge's higher keys are restricted so he can't use it.
-The few times Goku has been Ultra Instinct, he's been in the tournament of power, & serious in large part because his home universe was at risk of being erased, no? I'd assume it's not because he's fighting instinctually. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultra_Instinct_"Omen"-
Goku try to end his opponent fast not because his universe was in risk of being erased, but because UI have a time limit.
-It's not necessarily true that Goku is required to be unconscious in that form, no? Isn't Goku's usual personality to... build up the intensity in the fight, which he'd be likely to do if he was self-aware, even if his body was acting independent of his thought?-
Like I said before, Goku will go all out like he did against Jiren in order to win, this is because UI has a time limit.
-Obviously, my memory of episodes isn't perfect, but even in such a form, IIRC, his main tactics were going for melee attacks, both against Jiren & Kefla, no. Not to use a full-power Kamehameha from the get-go, or even as soon as he entered the form?-
Goku doesn't need a full power kamehameha to defeat Serge, you have to realize that Kefla is stronger than Serge, and even without that Goku's physical attacks can send kefla flying several meters away.
-(Technically speaking, Serge is also able to equip -among others- a few gravity manipulating techs likeFreeFall . Assuming his Universe+ Level AP means he can use them on a sufficient level to impede Goku's movement. Serge's elements can also manipulate evasiveness & accuracy, which may be able to influence what hits or doesn't.)-
I don't know if this techs can affect low 2-C beings, anyway Serge being able to manipulate his evasiveness and accuracy is probably a gameplay mechanic, if not I'm pretty sure Goku's ultra instinct can counter this.
-Not to mention, I'd argue a durability buff could be an advantage; If Goku expends a large portion of his energy on a big kamehameha or lots of attacks that fail to take out Serge due to his buffed durability or defenses, Goku's facing a considerable stamina loss & Serge may be able to heal the damage off.-
Goku doesn't need a full power Kamehameha, he use it against Kefla because he was tired and it would be his last kamehameha before UI runs out, also he is extremely tired because his fight against Jiren, so here he shouldn't suffer any stamina issues since we are using a fresh Goku.
-Stamina issues are worsened by Serge already being able to inflict fatigued status on Goku with Meteor Shower, HolyLight & PhotonBeam which can influence the Fatigued status, which could further impair Goku trying to attack at full power.-
Like before, Goku shouldn't have any stamina issues here, and probably UI has a time limit because of this.
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@Therefir: (1st off, I was acknowledging Serge's higher keys can't be used by saying they're not relevant. They're irrelevant BECAUSE he can't use them.)
"Goku try to end his opponent fast not because his universe was in risk of being erased, but because UI have a time limit."
And isn't that time limit Goku's stamina? Quoting the Dragon Ball Wiki "While unleashing his final attack before he would run out of stamina," & "After Kefla's defeat, noticing how exhausted Goku is, Frieza realizes that one has to bear overwhelming physical stress as the cost for such a gain in power."
If Goku's UI stopped when he ran out of stamina, then presumably the Fatigued Status would heavily impair his useage of UI.
Even in UI Omen, when Goku fought Jiren, he was still resorting to mostly melee attacks. I doubt each of his punches or a barrage is equal to one of his charged up full-power kamehamehas, even 1 from when he's fatigued. His offensive abilities aren't perfect, so his melee attacks may not be guaranteed to hit. especially in a Speed Equalized match.
And regarding power, I apologize for sort of having to ask, but I'm not sure what your proof is that Kefla is stronger than Serge. Also, launching someone isn't KOing them. Presumably Goku damaged her, yes, however.
"I don't know if this techs can affect low 2-C beings, anyway Serge being able to manipulate his evasiveness and accuracy is probably a gameplay mechanic, if not I'm pretty sure Goku's ultra instinct can counter this."
Most characters in Chrono Cross can be affected by Elements/Techs, such as Harle, who is 2-A & Time Devourer , which is another form of Devourer Lavos . I'm pretty sure if they can be assumed to affect them, they can affect 2-Cs.
It's also uncertain if Goku's body will be prepared to instinctively react to things like gravity violently altering in his general vicinity, if we consider it a field of gravity manipulation, assuming something like FreeFall isn't just a form of Telekinesis.
And speaking of Harle, the evasiveness & accuracy manipulating techs are brought up & described on her profile on our Wiki .
"Like before, Goku shouldn't have any stamina issues here, and probably UI has a time limit because of this."
Regarding Goku hitting Serge. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultra_Instinct_"Omen" "The form is currently incomplete however, as Goku can subconsciously evade, but not physically strike, which limits the power of his blows."
Also, Serge might have an easier time dodging Goku given that he can infer from what he might see in other timelines. From his own profiles: Can witness the events of every timeline at once
As I mentioned, Goku might have them if he gets afflicted with a fatigued status. Quoting the description on our wiki's page for PhotonBeam, an Element that can inflict the Fatigued status:
"Goku try to end his opponent fast not because his universe was in risk of being erased, but because UI have a time limit."
And isn't that time limit Goku's stamina? Quoting the Dragon Ball Wiki "While unleashing his final attack before he would run out of stamina," & "After Kefla's defeat, noticing how exhausted Goku is, Frieza realizes that one has to bear overwhelming physical stress as the cost for such a gain in power."
If Goku's UI stopped when he ran out of stamina, then presumably the Fatigued Status would heavily impair his useage of UI.
Even in UI Omen, when Goku fought Jiren, he was still resorting to mostly melee attacks. I doubt each of his punches or a barrage is equal to one of his charged up full-power kamehamehas, even 1 from when he's fatigued. His offensive abilities aren't perfect, so his melee attacks may not be guaranteed to hit. especially in a Speed Equalized match.
And regarding power, I apologize for sort of having to ask, but I'm not sure what your proof is that Kefla is stronger than Serge. Also, launching someone isn't KOing them. Presumably Goku damaged her, yes, however.
"I don't know if this techs can affect low 2-C beings, anyway Serge being able to manipulate his evasiveness and accuracy is probably a gameplay mechanic, if not I'm pretty sure Goku's ultra instinct can counter this."
Most characters in Chrono Cross can be affected by Elements/Techs, such as Harle, who is 2-A & Time Devourer , which is another form of Devourer Lavos . I'm pretty sure if they can be assumed to affect them, they can affect 2-Cs.
It's also uncertain if Goku's body will be prepared to instinctively react to things like gravity violently altering in his general vicinity, if we consider it a field of gravity manipulation, assuming something like FreeFall isn't just a form of Telekinesis.
And speaking of Harle, the evasiveness & accuracy manipulating techs are brought up & described on her profile on our Wiki .
- Eagle Eye: Raises the probability of her attacks connecting.
- Bat Eye: Decreases the probability of the foe's enemies connecting.
"Like before, Goku shouldn't have any stamina issues here, and probably UI has a time limit because of this."
Regarding Goku hitting Serge. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultra_Instinct_"Omen" "The form is currently incomplete however, as Goku can subconsciously evade, but not physically strike, which limits the power of his blows."
Also, Serge might have an easier time dodging Goku given that he can infer from what he might see in other timelines. From his own profiles: Can witness the events of every timeline at once
As I mentioned, Goku might have them if he gets afflicted with a fatigued status. Quoting the description on our wiki's page for PhotonBeam, an Element that can inflict the Fatigued status:
- PhotonBeam: Blasts foes with a more powerful laser. It's a stronger version of Photon Ray and can inflict foes with the Fatigue status effect, which makes their stamina deplete much faster in battle.
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That doesn't answer how Serge will be able to withstand Goku's attacks in the first place, also is probably that Goku will be able to master UI in some weeks, and even if Bat Eye reduces his probability of connecting a punch, that doesn't mean Goku will fail all his attacks, Goku can kill him in one hit, and Bat Eye is countered by Ultra Instinct.
- 8,837
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I don't mean to be rude, but I still honestly don't know the proof that Serge is weaker than Kefla.
If UI is upgraded in some weeks, that wouldn't this thread be remade due to the characters being involved in a content revision? Assuming the option to use the revised UI is considered.
Also, HiRes can buff Serge's physical durability, & Weaken can... weaken Goku's physical attacks, & Nimble can make Serge more evasive. Here are our Wiki's descriptions of them, from Harle's profile :
And of course, if Serge has either of these, he could one-shot Goku himself.
If UI is upgraded in some weeks, that wouldn't this thread be remade due to the characters being involved in a content revision? Assuming the option to use the revised UI is considered.
Also, HiRes can buff Serge's physical durability, & Weaken can... weaken Goku's physical attacks, & Nimble can make Serge more evasive. Here are our Wiki's descriptions of them, from Harle's profile :
- Weaken: Decreases the enemy's attack power.
- Nimble: Raises the probability of her foe's attacks missing by a fixed percentage.
- Eagle Eye: Raises the probability of her attacks connecting.
- HiRes: Increases defensive power.
- Gravity Blow: Manipulates the force of gravity to blast the foes away.
- Gravitonne: Crushes all foes with a supergravitational field.
- FreeFall: Launches opponent to the air then leaves them to collide against the ground.
And of course, if Serge has either of these, he could one-shot Goku himself.
- Hell Soul: Forcibly removes the Soul of the enemy from their body and prevents it from returning, making resurrection or Regenerationn an impossibility.
- Hellbound: One Hit Kills foes by distorting their bodies and BFR's their very soul to the depths of Hell in another dimension, preventing resurrection or Regenerationn.
