Serge (Chrono Cross) vs Goku (DBS)

[Imaginym]

@Therefir: I had been waiting for you to explain WHY he can one-shot people stronger than Serge. Your most recent post explaining that was the kind of answer I had been interested in, so thank you for that. (Although, please pardon me saying so, but I do wish you could've just made 1 post & edited it instead of making 4 posts all in a row.)

Also, checking the Dragon Ball Wiki, I think it seems debatable he DID one-shot SSJ2 Kefla. http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Kefla#Universe_Survival_Saga

"Kefla answers by further powering up, turning into Super Saiyan 2, her power impressing everyone, to the point she claims she could destroy an entire universe in a single shot, and proceeds to attack Goku, who dodges all of her attacks and lands a hit on her, with Kefla claiming that he can still do better than that. Goku then surprises Kefla with a barrage of punches and throws her away. Kefla then proceeds block Goku's punch, only to be kicked away after trying to attack him,"

"Goku manages to dodge most of her attacks, though he was slightly hit twice by her energy, he then starts to charge a Kamehameha while dodging Kefla's attacks. He then jumps in the air towards her, and she says he will not be able to dodge in mid-air and charges a powerful ki blast and fires it at Goku, who dodges it much to Kefla's surprise, and hits her at point-blank range with his Sliding Kamehameha, which throws her out of the arena and breaks her potara earrings, ending the fusion."


If the Dragon Ball Wiki is to be believed, prior to landing that kamehameha on Kefla, he successfully used the following moves on her: A barrage of punches, a throw, & then kicked her. Then, he charged a kamehameha, which sent her out of the arena & broke her Potara Earrings.

I apologize for what may be Argument from Incredulity, but I have a hard time believing that that counts as one-shotting his opponent.


"and Serge doesn't have soul manip or BFR in his profile."

Then explain why he has Healing. He doesn't have any Techs unique to him that Heal. Why does he have Status Effect Inducement? None of his Techs can inflict statuses either. Why does he have Summoning? He can't summon without using Elements, either.

As far as I know, Serge wouldn't have any of those abilities without having Elements equipped that he can use. It would seem Serge's profile assume he has Elements equipped. If Serge couldn't equip Elements, he wouldn't have ANY of those abilities listed at all.

He is able to equip the HellSoul & HellBound elements, so it's reasonable to assume he should have access to them. Dare I say, it's a part of his profile that needs to be addressed in a CRT.

 

[Therefir]

Certainly those punches don't affect Kefla too much, so he one-shot her with one kamehameha, if you say that Serge can dodge it, Goku can use Instant Transmission and shot a full power kamehameha like he did against Cell and Toppo, and even if he needs some punches to defeat Kefla, Kefla is still stronger than someone who is stronger than Infinite Zamasu, so Goku should be able to one-shot Serge.

 

[Therefir]

And yes, you need to make a CRT to put that abilities in his profile, but for now we can't use it, and even if we use it that doesn't change the fact that Goku one-shot.

 

[Imaginym]

"Certainly those punches don't affect Kefla too much, so he one-shot her with one kamehameha,"

I would argue that they definitely did affect her. Here's a video showing much of Goku & Kefla's fight. At about 3:55, we see Goku strike Kefla with what she calls a punch at 4:18, also saying "Your moves are pretty impressive, but your attacks are pretty wimpy.".

At about 5:34 Goku executes a barrage of punches upon her, getting behind her & starting the attack before she can finish turning around. She was almost certainly caught off guard, & this seems all the more likely, given her expression of possibly shock &/or pain seen at 5:44 & at 5:48, a distant shot shows us Goku using a kick to send her to the ground, where she can be seen clutching her stomach.

Shortly after, she blocks a punch from Goku who comes swiftly from afar. He dodges her attempt to kick him & kicks her from behind. Goku then attacks her from afar while's still reeling with what I think the DB Wiki identifies as Flash Fist Crush , hitting her in the stomach to what looks like considerable effect, IMHO, given her reaction & change in posture.

Again, I would say she definitely was affected, if not damaged to a considerable effect before Goku used his "Sliding Kamehameha " on her.

While it doesn't necessarily disprove that he could one-shot Serge (Especially without knowing to what extent HiRes buffs Serge or how much Weaken lowers Goku's AP before he can Reactive Evolution it away.), it doesn't seem like a one-shot of Kefla to me.

 

[Mania568]

voting goku for reasons above

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have no opinion on this matchup, but wow, this is a lot of overhype.

One, false on Goku one-shorting Kefla. I love how "finishing blow" basically means "one-shot" to some of us. Did you just forget about his muda punches earlier? A one shot means only one attack was launched. Period.

Two, false about Goku being superior to baseline. I...honestly don't know if you guys know how tier 2 works, but are you seriously upscaling Goku via being superior to a character who is scaled to him? That's fallacious af. Kefla being able to threaten UI at all is what makes her Low 2-C.

 

[Therefir]

*snip*

Well, she certainly that Goku's attacks are pretty wimpy, now the reasons I said that those punches don't affect Kefla too much, it's because the entire episode everyone has been saying that Goku's attacks are ineffective against Kefla, because his UI is not complete and he was weakened and tired.

 

[Imaginym]

Her visibly pained reactions to his attacks after she said that contradict the idea of her finding them wimpy, though. It seems certain she took notable damage prior to being hit by that kamehameha. Also, I think Cal made some noteworthy points on the scaling.

 

[Therefir]

*snip*

But Piccolo says that Kefla was stronger than previous UI Goku, also I think Goku's normal attacks doesn't hurt too much Kefla, but that is debatable.

 

[Therefir]

It's make sense if you think about it, before Goku transform into ultra instinct, his ssj blue gets trashed by Kale Berseker, but after he transformed into UI, he only need ssj 2 in order to fight with her controled berseker , I don't know if Kale gets more power controling the transformation, but it shouldn't be weaker than before.

 

[Therefir]

Kefla's profile: Piccolo commented that her power had surpassed the level that Goku had previously reached when fighting Jiren.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lemme rephrase what I said earlier.

He's not far above baseline. At all. Not even close to enough to oneshot a bseline.

 

[Therefir]

I don't know how far he is above baseline, but it should be enough to one-shot: Weakened and incomplete UI Goku > Kefla ssj2 > previous UI Goku > = Casual Jiren or holding Back > Infinite Zamasu = Serge.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That scaling is false. For many reasons.

One, not weakened. Goku's status pre-UI doesn't translate over from before.

Two, Goku's superior, but not that superior to SSJ2 Kefla. He won through speed, skill, and defensive capabilities. Not power. She would've been the one to one-shot, ironically. Goku's final attack didn't even incap her. It ringed her out of bounds, and the fusees could still move unhindered after the earrings broke.

Three, you're correct there, but it's not a large gap at all.

Four, equal, not superior. But you did say greater than or equal to, so that's acceptable.

Five...kinda. The entire scaling is about them (GoDs, UI Goku, and Jiren) being comparable to Infinite Zamasu. So like SSJ2 Kefla to UI Goku, Jiren isn't that superior.

 

[Therefir]

With weakened I was referring to that he is extremely tired. Even when holding back, Jiren was stated by Supreme Kai to be more powerful than Infinite Zamasu.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

AFAIK, Goku's stamina fall isn't a thing when he goes into UI. He wasn't tired anymore. Jiren (holding back) is > Infinite Zamasu, while you guys are treating it like he's >>>>>> Infinite Zamasu.

And that's disregarding that CT + FF Serge is well into Low 2-C.

Also, I know how it may seem, but I'm not annoyed with you, and I think you're quite reasonable right now.

 

[Therefir]

In the end, the gap between Goku and Serge should be enough to grant him the advantage or not?.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I edited my comment.

If Serge were baseline, yes, it would be an advantage, but a very slight one.

 

[Golden_Void]

Inconclusive.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Serge via Time Manipulation.
Also before anyone complains about Goku being resistant to Time Stop. This is only as SSJBKKx10.

Goku has all previous ability with ultra instinct omen.

 

[Akreious]

@Cal You're very much confusing me. So you're telling me that Serge is baseline (one timeline), but Goku is only slightly more powerful in AP due to being superior to someone who is superior to someone who is equal to someone who is superior to infinite Zamasu (baseline). I don't know about you, but that's NOT a small deal. Not that it matters anyways, assuming we're using standard battle assumptions (willing to kill) and UI is arguably the most serious incarnation of Goku there is, I have no doubts that he'd try to exploit UI as much as he can.

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

@Teenangel

I guess SSBKKx20 gets stomped by SSBKKx10 am i right?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Cal You're very much confusing me. So you're telling me that Serge is baseline (one timeline), but Goku is only slightly more powerful in AP due to being superior to someone who is superior to someone who is equal to someone who is superior to infinite Zamasu (baseline). I don't know about you, but that's NOT a small deal. Not that it matters anyways, assuming we're using standard battle assumptions (willing to kill) and UI is arguably the most serious incarnation of Goku there is, I have no doubts that he'd try to exploit UI as much as he can.

Think of it like this:

I'm slightly stronger than my brother, who's slightly stronger than his friend, who's slightly stronger than his cousin. I'm not one-shifting my brother's friend's cousin though.

And that's disregarding abilities.

 

[Abbadon616]

Just saying goku is as baseline as baseline gets in low 2c, like seriously he doesn't even have any feats literally just vague character statements. How he got upgraded is a mystery but whatever

 

[Akreious]

@Abbadon: that's literally the definition of an opinion, and those character statements are repeatedly enforced. I'll reply later Cal I'm currently in no position to write anymore than this

 

[Theglassman12]

Just saying goku is as baseline as baseline gets in low 2c, like seriously he doesn't even have any feats literally just vague character statements. How he got upgraded is a mystery but whatever

How about you actually look at the profiles to see the justification for their tiers.

 

[Abbadon616]

How about you actually look at the profiles to see the justification for their tiers.

No solid evidence just character statements. Very vague character statements that aren't repeatedly enforced just slightly hinted at, but people took it out of proportion. I don't want to derail this thread continue the match

 

[Bluetrekking]

Bump

 

[Tori-Bot]

Voting Goku.

 

[Theglassman12]

Goku should take this for the reasons stated above.

 

[Bluetrekking]

Time Manipulation is going to be tough for Goku. Slowing and speeding up time. Goku still has flight. There is the argument that "Goku does not abuse flight and range in Character." The problem is that who can he abuse it on? In DBS, everyone and their mom can fly. In CQC and H2H, Goku would win. Serge striking strength is absolute butt cheeks compared to Goku. Serge does have the capacity to stall by healing and gravity hax. Serge would have to end it quickly as well because if he doesn't, Goku keeps on getting stronger and adapts to Serge's fighting style thus getting Precog. If anything I am leaning more toward Goku. If it is in character for Serge to reshape reshape history in a fight, he wins. If not, Goku should take this.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Got to give it to Goku for reason above.

 

[Imaginym]

I'd still argue for Serge based on his Healing, & likely Gravity & Statistics Manipulation & the other hax & whatnot that he has access to via his Elements.... But we'd probably need a CRT to get that properly accepted like we do for other CC characters before that argument might be accepted.

And in Cal's own words, Goku "isn't far above baseline". So, not a one-shot at least, but Serge's abilities should be able to make some difference, considering they'd be close in AP/Dura, if, with a gap.

 

[Bluetrekking]

The problem lies in H2H and CQC. With a measly planet level striking strength, Goku wins CQC any day of the week. Serge can try to make distance but Goku has IT to cover the gap.

 

[Imaginym]

That does bring up a question. If Serge's melee & Element-based attacks are only Planet Level, & he's only on Goku's Tier with the Chrono Cross which might not be applicable in this match, then is it really fair?

Or do we assume that energy is energy & thus if Serge can apply the energy to do the feats that the Chrono Cross does with the CC, that Serge can thus apply it to his other techniques or such?

@The Real Cal Howard: I'd like some clarification on this matter.

 

[Bluetrekking]

I think you mean Chrono Trigger not Chrono Cross.

 

[Imaginym]

I think you mean Chrono Trigger not Chrono Cross.

Yes, my bad.

 

[KinkiestSins]

With all due respect, only one goku vote displayed a scenario for how goku would win and no one else has ever even clarified on how goku can win. They just say goku fra.

Egh.. I will come back more seriously to vote, but I might just chalk to this to inconclusive since it is a master of ap and hax resistance vs hax.

But one question. What kind of status effects can Serge inflict? Honestly, half of jrpg status effects open goku up to be killed fairly quickly.


Also, if you can bend time and space at a whim, rehsaping history, I dont think goku being resistant to time stop will help here. Goku...doesnt have the greatest resistance to time stop.

 

[Imaginym]

@KinkiestSins:

Regarding status ailments, I actually went over a small bit of that. But there's a bit of disagreement on which elements he should be able to be use, since his profile doesn't list all the corresponding abilities.

Even though our profile for Harle (Another Chrono Cross character, & excluding a form of Lavos, the ONLY other CC character on our Wiki.) lists all the elements she can use on her profile .

Technically speaking, Serge should have access to any Element listed on this page that isn't innate to a non-White Innate Colour, as well as every element innate to White. This would include HellSoul (removes Soul) & HellBound.

The list in Harle's profile goes over all the elements she has access to & their effects, including the effects of statuses that can be inflicted by those elements, so it may be helpful to peruse.

Even restricting him to only White Elements, Serge can still inflict Fatigued, which increases stamina consumption. He could also have access to MagNegate, which nullifies foe's Magic Attacks, similar to Black Innate's SealAll, which seals away everyone's Elements.

 

[Bluetrekking]

I was wandering if Serge's history reshape is combat applicable. And if it is, what are the capabilities and limits.