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Separation of Pokémon Profiles/Issues with Pokémon Double Standards

Yobo_Blue

Yobo_Blue

31,701
5,478
Aight. Somehow in the time between going to sleep and waking up I have turned against composition of Pokémon profiles, which is probably a sign of some sort, but who cares.

So yeah. Pokémon as it is now has a lot of issues that need to be addressed.

For starters, the inconsistency of the Pokémon mediums is a major issue. As our current standards on composites dictate, sufficiently different portrayals of a certain medium cannot be used for a composite. For example, Shaggy Rogers (Cartoon) is different from Scooby Doo (Scooby Apocalypse) because of the differences and is not included in the composite because of it. I don't believe I have to explain all the major differences between the canons of Pokemon. Obvious character, geography, plot, and general differences is obvious. Additionally, differences in movesets and feats exist even between game timelines, let alone anime, manga, and crossovers like Conquest, or heaven forbid the TCG

Additionally, as it is now, we already have major double standards with our current problems. As it is now, we have things like Grovyle (PMD Explorers), Detective Pikachu, Mewtwo (Detective Pikachu), and basically every trainer profile separates for no reason other than cherrypicked feats and outliers. This is despite the fact that some like Detective Pikachu are explicitly within the same canon. Even if we assume that the difference between mediums is not enough justification for separation, the issues with these profiles still stand.

But yobo, you absolute mad ******, it's too much work to separate all profiles! And it's too complicated!

We already have separation, as shown above with various profiles which are already separate. Additionally, we already do this with pages like Superman (Post-Crisis) and Godzilla (Millennium), who I'd wager have more versions than Pikachu. And let's be honest here, it's unlikely that we'll ever entirely index or work out Pokémon even as it is now, but that's no reason we shouldn't strive to be more correct or reasonable.

But yobo, you blue ape, Pokémon are species profiles that use the maximum potential for each species!

That doesn't make them exempt from rules of consistency and compositing. We aren't going to composite MCU Skrulls or Kerr with their comic versions, or Warhammer 40k humans with Fantasy Humans. Even within canons, species shouldn't be just a single rating based on their most consistent showings. Just look at Mongrel Dog or Tyranids. In addition, we already separate certain showings like with Lucario (Pokémon 7) or the above Grovyle example.

So this leaves us with three options

Proposal 1: Accept Pokémon as being able to be composited, and rectify the double standards with other profiles mentioned above. This leaves Pokémon intact but requires us to composite trainers and the like, as well as remove profiles like Grovyle (PMD Explorers).


Proposal 2: Treat Pokémon mediums as being alternate dimensions or timelines, within the same canon, in a similar manner to Superman and other alternate versions of characters that share a multiverse. This means that only Pokémon like Arceus or the higher tier Pokémon will keep composite profiles, while others will be separated

Proposal 3: Treat each medium as a separate canon. This separates all profiles.

Discuss.
 
The problem is that because the spin-offs, anime, manga, and the like base the Pokemon in them on their appearence in the Core Games, they share Types, Moves, Abilities, Evolutions, Size, and general Lore, with only small details being added on. And because the Pokemon profiles are species based and thus lack personlaites, beyond species quirks that the other canon's also normally show, their is little to distguinsh and seperate the different canon's and thus no actually reason to seperate the profiles because they would be 99% similar between each other.
 
Everything12 said:
The problem is that because the spin-offs, anime, manga, and the like base the Pokemon in them on their appearence in the Core Games, they share Types, Moves, Abilities, Evolutions, Size, and general Lore, with only small details being added on. And because the Pokemon profiles are species based and thus lack personlaites, beyond species quirks that the other canon's also normally show, their is little to distguinsh and seperate the different canon's and thus no actually reason to seperate the profiles because they would be 99% similar between each other.
Click to expand...
Without even going into the issues with that, that doesn't solve the issues with inconsistencies and differences with everything that isn't the Pokémon across mediums, which is also a major part of determining canon. We can't just look at the Pokémon themselves in a vacuum
 
I'll attempt to go into detail about why I absolutely disagree with this later.

Because there are major faults of logic here that I need to address.
 
Even assuming they can be composited, it is still necessary to address issues with the above double standards with certain Pokémon profiles like Detective Pikachu Mewtwo
 
Yobo Blue said:
Even assuming they can be composited, it is still necessary to address issues with the above double standards with certain Pokémon profiles like Detective Pikachu Mewtwo
Click to expand...
I agree with this part. But not the OP.
 
I agree with this part. But not the OP.

That's fair. That's more or less Proposal 1
 
Yobo Blue said:
I agree with this part. But not the OP.
Click to expand...
That's fair. That's more or less Proposal 1
Can't fully agree with Proposal 1 either, due to PMD Grovyle. He's just too consistently wrangling Tier 2's, to be grouped in among other Grovyles. At the very least, he should have a key of his own on Sceptile's profile.
 
I have nothing much to say regarding the differentiation of certain members of a species as those imo become exceptions and not the rule. I am neutral on this tbh. I may say more later.
 
The thing is that I'm prettty sure Manga, Anime, Game, etc. are all canon to each other to a degree.

I know I have seen a WoG quote that implies that they all take place in the same universe, just with different events in different timelines.

Also acting like the few individual-specific profiles is comparable to splitting every single Pokémon profiles into canon is ******* ridiculous.
 
I think that variations that notably perform far better than the average members of their species should be the ones with a different file. Whether something is an outlier or not is for those who disagree with the ratings and those who agree to sort out. Of course, this brings a whole new wave of issues, but that is par the course for anything we do.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Also acting like the few individual-specific profiles is comparable to splitting every single Pokémon profiles into canon is ******* ridiculous.
Click to expand...
In this case, we'd just pick a "main" canon, or a more mainstream continuity to base the profiles on and **** everything else unless there's a very specific version of this Pokémon that differs enough from the main one to deserve its own profile.

This is why we only have the movie versions of most Kaijus from Godzilla and leave aside the other incarnations from comic books and crap (which tend to be 99% identical to their movie counterparts except fro their tier) aside from Big G himself.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
The thing is that I'm prettty sure Manga, Anime, Game, etc. are all canon to each other to a degree.

I know I have seen a WoG quote that implies that they all take place in the same universe, just with different events in different timelines.
Click to expand...
That would be more Proposal 2
 
Pokemon Mediums being separate is such a standard fact that the fact that this wiki ignores it has confused me to do this day. On all the knowledgable wikis VSBW said is a good resource for Pokemon news, each one says every medium of Pokemon is a different cano. Furthermore, Bulbapedia suggests that every 'season' of the manga is a different medium as well.
 
From the pokemon page: "All of our Pokémon species profiles are composite versions of that species of Pokémon across all different mediums, including the games, the anime, the manga, the Trading Card Game and any spin-off games. Their power and abilities should reflect this. The only exceptions to this are Pokémon that are individual enough to warrant a profile separate from their species, such as Pikachu (Anime)."
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
I think that variations that notably perform far better than the average members of their species should be the ones with a different file. Whether something is an outlier or not is for those who disagree with the ratings and those who agree to sort out. Of course, this brings a whole new wave of issues, but that is par the course for anything we do.
Click to expand...
I do agree with this point.
 
Disagree strongly with this, I'll try to write up my response tomorrow. Though I will say this: In the case of characters like PMD Grovyle, they are more significant as standalone characters from their medium rather than part of a species, and it'd be pretty ridiculous scaling-wise to include them as part of the species composite.
 
Yobo, alternate timeline does not equal totally different tier and ability, especially when the worlds are stated to be the same other than the specifics of certain events.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Yobo, alternate timeline does not equal totally different tier and ability, especially when the worlds are stated to be the same other than the specifics of certain events.
Click to expand...
It does in some cases, especially in issues of consistency
 
Now I have to go bed very soon because of college tomorrow, and I didnt have much time to contribute to this. So before clocking out, i'll just say this and get back to this when I can.

As far as Detective Pikachu and D.P. Mewtwo go, these 2 profiles are not supposed to actually even exist. Especially for Mewtwo. Whoever made them mistakenly made them.

I even suggested this in the thread made to downgrade D.P. Mewtwo that the profile should be straight up deleted and just have his stuff added onto Mewtwo's composite page because of the movie being blatantly confirmed to be canon to the verse. The movie isn't its own special thing and there is absolutely no reason for this Mewtwo to have its own page like it is special. Cal and others also agreed with deleting the page too for it being pointless. And this should likely be the same for Pikachu as well.

In Groyvle's case, its what Gyro and Zeifyl said. While PMD Groyvle seems very standalone to be grouped in with the species, I also wouldn't mind just giving Groyvle an alternate key on the species page. So im on the fence when it comes to this.
 
Well, wifh pokemon being a super inconsistent verse a la the comics, i thought I should use some examples there.

Check out Superman (All Star). He is a different timeline, so canon superman was thrown out. Same for Superman (Red Son), despite them even interacting with lther Supermen because it's inconsistent. We also have Spider-Man (Marvel Comics) and Spider-Man (Insomniac Games) not scaling despite fithting another due to this, Cosmic Ghost Rider doesn't scale to main universe thanos because alt timeline, etc. Also like, yhe entire idea of SCP article Canon.

This separation of feats and timelines is clearly a thing we do for really inconsistent and expansive verses like this.
 
Also, let's remember the concept of an outlier still exists here. If we were to composite we would jusy throw out tier 2 grovile for outlier.
 
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