SCP CRT : Massively Downgrade and Abilities addition Part 1

[Sir_Ovens]

There's still the fact that 343 isn't God and is instead Methuselah. SCP-6666 confirms this.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There's still the fact that 343 isn't God and is instead Methuselah. SCP-6666 confirms this.

Scans?

Also i thought we dont do cross-article scaling?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We do in fact do cross-article scaling. It's the only way some of these characters even have profiles.

SCP-6666's article

"SCP-343: (Laughs) Well, who can truly say to know the mystery of God's nature?

Dr. Clef: I know your age, first of all, which is-

SCP-343: Ageless as the universe.

Dr. Clef: -not that, and I know your name. You're Methuselah the Arcanist? Royal Vizier of the ancient House of Malidraug?

SCP-343: I- (pauses) -excuse me?

Dr. Clef: It's a pretty easy question, just yes or-

SCP-343: I don't, what? How do you know about that?

Dr. Clef: Cain gave you away. Said if he'd known you were living here he would've warned us ages ago. Also said you were a legendary con-man and grifter, with delusions of grandeur.

SCP-343: I mean, delusions feels like a little much. God dammit, Cain. Cain the Wanderer. Plainswalker. Bastard.

Dr. Clef: So is that a yes or no?

SCP-343: Ah, I mean… yes, I suppose, but I have not gone by that name in… Christ, in a long, long time. Honestly, I'm kind of annoyed he even knew who I was — I worked very hard to try and keep my distance from him and his ilk. Dusty old creeps from the old eons of time who should've done us all a good favor and died when the first man did."

I would also like to point out that besides Competitive Eschatology, this interpretation contradicts nothing as 343 being the All-Mighty has absolutely no link outside of Chaoskampf.

 

[Overlord775]

Interviewing Icons - Djoric - SCP Foundation

The SCP Foundation's 'top-secret' archives, declassified for your enjoyment.

scp-wiki.wikidot.com

"682 was referenced pretty openly in the tale as one of the children of the 4th Bride, so that's no surprise. The link to the Scarlet King is actually much more convoluted than it needs to be: this was the era of my dumb insistence that 231 was a whale, and 682's image is that of a rotting whale carcass, so if the Scarlet King is whale/leviathan themed, then obviously there's a connection."

Djoric in his own interview says that the idea that theyre literal whales is dumb

that's not even being inconsistent, that's just retconning stuff

His own canon also flat out established thos who made as th beings who were the darkness that the brothrs spawned from

would you mind citing proof for that ?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The tale that describes it as a whale isn't literal though. It has soul hax, is supe-resilient, etc. It just looked like a whale.

He is stating that the reason he made 682 and Scarlet King related is convoluted, as it's built on the ground of 682's imagine being a rotting whale corpse. He isn't saying that's not true, just that the reasoning convoluted.

The only thing that quote disagrees with being outright canon is 999 being a 7th kid, since those are meant to walk on two legs. He waves 999 being a son of SK as "fandom's gonna fandom".


Though I wonder, how could SCPs not cross-scale between references from other SCPs, at least in extended canon? Surely using tales is more removed than using something from an SCP text log or the likes.

And yeah, don't worry Weekly. You will be allowed to have your say, even if it takes a few days to get it together.

 

[Tyranno223]

Would it not be prudent to simply give 343 multiple keys depending on interpretation? He's been portrayed as both a god and a reality warper many times, and both interpretations are equally valid.

 

[Agnaa]

Would it not be prudent to simply give 343 multiple keys depending on interpretation? He's been portrayed as both a god and a reality warper many times, and both interpretations are equally valid.

That sounds like a complete nightmare. In a previous thread I ran through the issues with making keys for different authors, doing them for different character interpretations sounds in some ways better, and in some ways far worse. But tl;dr characters aren't in a vacuum, I don't think it makes sense to take a single character and include two conflicting powersets on their profile. Especially for popular characters like 343, this stuff cascades out wildly.

I think the better option is to just find what's consistent and list that.

 

[Tyranno223]

That sounds like a complete nightmare. In a previous thread I ran through the issues with making keys for different authors, doing them for different character interpretations sounds in some ways better, and in some ways far worse. But tl;dr characters aren't in a vacuum, I don't think it makes sense to take a single character and include two conflicting powersets on their profile. Especially for popular characters like 343, this stuff cascades out wildly.

I think the better option is to just find what's consistent and list that.

The issue with that is the sheer disparity between the interpretations of 343 as a god, or as a reality warper. It'll be hard to find a consistent consensus, even by SCP standards.

 

[Agnaa]

I would be surprised if there were an equal number of tales/articles written about both.

I would be blown away if the sum of the votes for each category of tale/article were exactly equal.

 

[Tyranno223]

I would be surprised if there were an equal number of tales/articles written about both.

I would be blown away if the sum of the votes for each category of tale/article were exactly equal

I would be surprised if there were an equal number of tales/articles written about both.

I would be blown away if the sum of the votes for each category of tale/article were exactly equal.

Maybe not dead even, but there's a fair amount on both sides. Having a slim difference hardly makes the more common result a strong one.

 

[Agnaa]

I'd rather select a weak winner than select no winner, or select both as winners.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'd rather select a weak winner than select no winner, or select both as winners.

Then that comes down to a matter of preference, regardless, this was merely a suggestion, in case the debate ends up dragging on too much.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, that's just the problem with making SCP profiles that include tales and such. The characters are too mutable to be really considered one character, they are effectively composites of an archetype that is seen as most famous by people on this wiki. I won't argue they should be delated or even changed, I don't have the force of will to go through that, but none of the SCP profiles will be truly correct on grounds that they are taking conflicting lores and putting them into one.

At least with DC, we take the outright different versions of the character to have their own profiles, but even then comic book profiles are infamously inconsistent with how they are in the actual comic books.

 

[Overlord775]

I wonder why we even bother to try make sense of expanded canon and not just stick to only article canon

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I wonder why we even bother to try make sense of expanded canon and not just stick to only article canon

Because it's extremely easy to understand given the slightest amount of thought

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Guys can we please keep this to a minimum? Theres already a lot here I have to respond to now on top of the lefrover stuff from last night and I wont be able to for at least a few more hours

 

[Sir_Ovens]

To my understanding, we work on Comics rules. If an interpretation is more consistent, we go with it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Guys can we please keep this to a minimum? Theres already a lot here I have to respond to now on top of the lefrover stuff from last night and I wont be able to for at least a few more hours

Nobody is forcing you to answer everyone at once.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Nobody is forcing you to answer everyone at once.

I mean I'm the only one making an effort to contest the stuff being said here so...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

...So take your time. You've been told that we will wait for you. You shouldn't get too wung up over it, even those that agree with the thread can survive it not being applied for a week or two.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay i got out of work early so i should have some more time for this, will have a full response in a bit

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, that's just the problem with making SCP profiles that include tales and such. The characters are too mutable to be really considered one character, they are effectively composites of an archetype that is seen as most famous by people on this wiki. I won't argue they should be delated or even changed, I don't have the force of will to go through that, but none of the SCP profiles will be truly correct on grounds that they are taking conflicting lores and putting them into one.

At least with DC, we take the outright different versions of the character to have their own profiles, but even then comic book profiles are infamously inconsistent with how they are in the actual comic books.

We don't composite conflicting lores. Or at least, we're not meant to. Researcher pages don't include lolfoundation stuff. 682, 173, and many more have separate EC keys from the keys where they're off fighting gods.

 

[MrKerf]

I wonder why we even bother to try make sense of expanded canon and not just stick to only article canon

Honestly, I was always under the impression that it belongs more to the FC/OC category. For obvious reasons.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Honestly, I was always under the impression that it belongs more to the FC/OC category. For obvious reasons.

And what reasons are those exactly? SCP is a lisenced and trademarked fiction series, why would it be considered FC/OC material? Thats like saying stuff like Worm is fanfiction

Hell SCP has published novels

 

[MrKerf]

And what reasons are those exactly? SCP is a lisenced and trademarked fiction series, why would it be considered FC/OC material? Thats like saying stuff like Worm is fanfiction

Hell SCP has published novels

While I’ve never finished reading Worm, I believe it is more consistent than extended SCP.

For a person like myself, who’ve read only a surface of a SCP iceberg, it (extended one) looks like a weird universe written by a whole lot of people, most of whom are writing completely different continuities, modifying characters they didn’t create as they want, and adding the ones they did create, for them to never appear again.

I see it as a fanfic stories. Some are good, some are bad, but all are on the same site as the original.

I know that in SCP technically everything is canon, but it is also very confusing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

While I’ve never finished reading Worm, I believe it is more consistent than extended SCP.

For a person like myself, who’ve read only a surface of a SCP iceberg, it (extended one) looks like a weird universe written by a whole lot of people, most of whom are writing completely different continuities, modifying characters they didn’t create as they want, and adding the ones they did create, for them to never appear again.

I see it as a fanfic stories. Some are good, some are bad, but all are on the same site as the original.

I know that in SCP technically everything is canon, but it is also very confusing.

I mean if thats how you define it then Marvel and DC would be fanfiction would they not? Numerous continuities all written by different peopl with diffrent interpretations of the characters, all taking place in different universes with different canons, some good some bad. How is SCP different from this?

 

[MrKerf]

I mean if thats how you define it then Marvel and DC would be fanfiction would they not? Numerous continuities all written by different peopl with diffrent interpretations of the characters, all taking place in different universes with different canons, some good some bad. How is SCP different from this?

I mean fair, but for comics we usually have a higher authority that says “Yeah, Galacta is not canon” or “Yeah, we retconned that Joker is that red cap guy”. But SCP’s higher authority is only the site admins, which are deleting the most outrageous pages, yes, but otherwise are saying “Yeah, everything is canon more or less”.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean fair, but for comics we usually have a higher authority that says “Yeah, Galacta is not canon” or “Yeah, we retconned that Joker is that red cap guy”. But SCP’s higher authority is only the site admins, which are deleting the most outrageous pages, yes, but otherwise are saying “Yeah, everything is canon more or less”.

I mean...no? SCP doesnt consider everything canon, th whole 'verything is canon and there is no canon' is a joke from when the site was first created but was removed half a decade ago as there is in fact a rather concise and consistent canon

 

[MrKerf]

I mean...no? SCP doesnt consider everything canon, th whole 'verything is canon and there is no canon' is a joke from when the site was first created but was removed half a decade ago as there is in fact a rather concise and consistent canon

But isn’t “canon” divided on the whole separate continuities? How much of them are we including in the borderline composite “extended universe”? For example, are feats of extended 682 are coming from one continuity only? I doubt that, but if yes, shouldn’t we rename it as... idk “War of Leviathans” key or smt?

For the “everything canon”, my bad, just entered canon-hub and saw it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But isn’t “canon” divided on the whole separate continuities? How much of them are we including in the borderline composite “extended universe”? For example, are feats of extended 682 are coming from one continuity only? I doubt that, but if yes, shouldn’t we rename it as... idk “War of Leviathans” key or smt?

We separate them by canon actually, if ther are two different canons they just get two different keys they dont get composited unless the canons are canon to each other. Most characters only have one canon though so it just gts labled as extended canon for simplicity

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

We don't composite conflicting lores. Or at least, we're not meant to. Researcher pages don't include lolfoundation stuff. 682, 173, and many more have separate EC keys from the keys where they're off fighting gods.

Eh, my point is that having different authors and interpretations mean that even stories in generally the "lore" end up different. As quoted above, 999 being a son despite having no legs to stand on and obviously being unable to hunt, being explained as "Fandom's gonna fandom."

I am not pushing for deleting the profiles. As I said, comics too are particularly bad at this. And, I don't think anyone really thinks our ratings for most comic characters are reliable as an index you can use if you grabbed the newest or a random comic book.

 

[MrKerf]

We separate them by canon actually, if ther are two different canons they just get two different keys they dont get composited unless the canons are canon to each other. Most characters only have one canon though so it just gts labled as extended canon for simplicity

Ah, I see. Maybe that’s where my confusion is coming from.
I’ve reread SCP Scaling and Canon rules and saw this:
“SCPs that have only one or two significant canons outside of the original file may have them in different keys as opposed to an extended canon (Such as SCP-3589 and its Apotheosis Canon interpretation).”

So 682, for example, has extended canon key, and Leviathan key. Where would EC feats come from? If it’s from the same storyline as Leviathan, shouldn’t it be named as such?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So 682, for example, has extended canon key, and Leviathan key. Where would EC feats come from?

Literally just its termination experiment log

 

[Agnaa]

So 682, for example, has extended canon key, and Leviathan key. Where would EC feats come from? If it’s from the same storyline as Leviathan, shouldn’t it be named as such?

EC feats come from parts of the site that aren't demonstrated as non-canon to the main story, and aren't demonstrated to be a different 682 to the one under the main foundation's surveillance.

Stuff from the same storyline as the Leviathan, but which refers to the same ordinary 682, would apply to that key.

Literally just its termination experiment log

I don't feel like you understood the question if you're answer it that incorrectly...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't feel like you understood the question if you're answer it that incorrectly...

He asked where 682's Extended Canon feats came from that arent his Leviathan key, did he not?

 

[MrKerf]

So 682, for example, has extended canon key, and Leviathan key. Where would EC feats come from? If it’s from the same storyline as Leviathan, shouldn’t it be named as such?

EC feats come from parts of the site that aren't demonstrated as non-canon to the main story, and aren't demonstrated to be a different 682 to the one under the main foundation's surveillance.

Stuff from the same storyline as the Leviathan, but which refers to the same ordinary 682, would apply to that key.

Literally just its termination experiment log

I don't feel like you understood the question if you're answer it that incorrectly...

Ohhhh, I see now. So, if it’s not contradicted by anything, it’s a EC.
And here I thought that termination logs are considered part of article.

Still, it would be good to have a note at the bottom, saying from which storyline the key is. Not EC, I get that now, but Leviathan for example, or Able El Asem.

Regardless, thanks to both of you for clarification, and Weekly, sorry for distracting from the op.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Are you done with your response, Weekly? Because the OP still hasn't been responded to.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Working on it, got sidtracked again by 4th of july stuff earlier unfortunately

 

[Agnaa]

He asked where 682's Extended Canon feats came from that arent his Leviathan key, did he not?

Yeah, and 682's EC feats that aren't his Leviathan key aren't limited to the termination log. There's a shitton of tales too. Look at 682's Low 2-C via death rating.

And here I thought that termination logs are considered part of article.

Normal termination/experimentation logs are, but collaborative logs aren't, as they're able to be written by anyone. Article Canon is meant to just be the author's stuff, and also includes the author's other works, and canon hubs the author placed that article into.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay so since it'll be easier to have one topic at a time we're gonna tackle 343 first since that seems to be a big source of confusion and get HWML/HWMD out of the way because i dont care. The 682 stuff will come after.

Regarding SCP-343, in Djoric's canon, 343 is nothing more than a feeble old rogue and the effect on mythology is generally very small And completely insignificant, so there is absolutely no basis to assume 682 is bound by 343, even the author himself vehemently denies this.
"First off, if 343 was going to be used, it would have been the version found in this tale of mine.

343 was never really on the table for addition because he's not part of the Big Picture. His mythos influence is incredibly limited; He's in the upper spectrum of human ability, but that still puts him as significantly weaker than most gods and just barely higher than most of the fair folk and local spirits (Working within the lines laid out within my body of work). A properly prepared and equipped baseline human could outwit and outmaneuver 343, and probably kill him if they set themselves to it. People have come close. In the grand scheme of things, he's a pawn with no king. Quoth Azula, "Don't flatter yourself; You were never even a player."

As for your suggestion, it's overwrought, stilted, cliche, and misses the entire point of the article. Your Thirty-Sixer there (who, might I add, is not even in Foundation custody) is pulling a bunch of holier than thou nonsense, which is the exact opposite of the entire idea of the Tzadikim Nistarim - they are the

A harmless old man with a silver tongue and a few cheap parlor tricks is hardly enough enough to count as…well, anything really, in a universe where you have the Scarlet King. There are actual threats to be dealt with, actual evil to deal with.

And that's why he would not be featured: it would be boring.

Essentially, you're looking for something that isn't there. The Thirty-Six are mellow" - Djoric
Scan: http://www.scpwiki.com/forum/t-617585/djoric-dmatix-proposal (tab 5)

There's still the fact that 343 isn't God and is instead Methuselah. SCP-6666 confirms this.

SCP-6666's article

"SCP-343: (Laughs) Well, who can truly say to know the mystery of God's nature?

Dr. Clef: I know your age, first of all, which is-

SCP-343: Ageless as the universe.

Dr. Clef: -not that, and I know your name. You're Methuselah the Arcanist? Royal Vizier of the ancient House of Malidraug?

SCP-343: I- (pauses) -excuse me?

Dr. Clef: It's a pretty easy question, just yes or-

SCP-343: I don't, what? How do you know about that?

Dr. Clef: Cain gave you away. Said if he'd known you were living here he would've warned us ages ago. Also said you were a legendary con-man and grifter, with delusions of grandeur.

SCP-343: I mean, delusions feels like a little much. God dammit, Cain. Cain the Wanderer. Plainswalker. Bastard.

Dr. Clef: So is that a yes or no?

SCP-343: Ah, I mean… yes, I suppose, but I have not gone by that name in… Christ, in a long, long time. Honestly, I'm kind of annoyed he even knew who I was — I worked very hard to try and keep my distance from him and his ilk. Dusty old creeps from the old eons of time who should've done us all a good favor and died when the first man did."

TFW Green King is actually a legitimate rprsentation of 343

I mean...shit, fair enough i guess, if it were just the djoric thing i'd argue against it but thats something else, just means 343 is more outdated than we thought lol, i'll throw his profile on the backlist of pages to clean up unless one of you want to take care of it

I would also like to point out that besides Competitive Eschatology, this interpretation contradicts nothing as 343 being the All-Mighty has absolutely no link outside of Chaoskampf.

Does Competitive Eschatology even contradict this? Like im genuinely curious, it seems im not as familiar with 343 as i thought i was.

Misconceptions about HE Who made Dark and Light
The justification for their Tier was
"Attack Potency: At least Multiverse level+, likely Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly higher (Was the darkness and the light that The Brothers Death and Isabel were born from)"
Like SCP-682, however, this is pure Headcanon, with absolutely no backing

would you mind citing proof for that ?

Chapter 1: Verse 1 - SCP Foundation

The SCP Foundation's 'top-secret' archives, declassified for your enjoyment.

scp-wiki.wikidot.com

Spoiler

In the beginning, there was darkness. All was formless waste and empty void - The quiet nothing without time or place, the gentle sleep that has no waking.

All was still.

Nothing stirred in the darkness.

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

Then there was light.

The light separated the Darkness Above from the Darkness Beneath, and there was disparity between them. Between the darkness and the light there was also disparity, and shadows flickered therein.

The light shone in the darkness, and was not overcome. Likewise the darkness was not destroyed, but given form both Above and Below.

From the darkness came the Eldest, the All-Death. He came from the darkness and was of the darkness and was the darkness, and nothing to come might pass beyond him. Vast and mighty was he, that no other might comprehend the reach of his arm, or the length of his gaze.

SCP-435 - SCP Foundation

The SCP Foundation's 'top-secret' archives, declassified for your enjoyment.

scp-wiki.wikidot.com

Spoiler

████████: Long ago, when the world was only water and sky, there were two brothers, “He-Who-Made-Light” and “He-Who-Made-Dark.” Like all brothers they fought. One time the light brother insulted the work of the dark brother. The dark one, he does not like this, and begins to destroy all the light in the world. “He-Who-Made-Light” cannot let this be so he shoves his brother into a hole that goes outside light and dark, and plugs the hole with a rock. Because “He-Who-Made-Dark” can only see in the dark, “He-Who-Made-Light” puts the rock in a sling and throws it around the sun so it will always stay lit and the dark one will never see how to find his way out.

Dr. Richards: That rock is SCP-435-1?

████████: That is your name for the sky rock.

Dr. Richards: Yes it is. How did it end up [REDACTED]

████████: Long after the brothers fought, the dark one’s rock fell from the sky. It fell so hard that it broke the Earth and raised the land and killed the first people who lived only in the sea. On the Earth, the sun lit it only half the time, so when darkness came, “He-Who-Made-Dark” could see to find his way. Even so, he had been lost outside the world for many many years, so each night he only came a little closer. And each night the rocks shook and bled fire at his approach. The Earth did not like this, so she made the second people to watch over the sky rock, and keep it lit so that the dark one cannot find his way home. [pauses] I think you may be the third people.

Dr. Richards: So do you have any measure of how long you were keeping it lit?

████████: Since before [DATA EXPUNGED] Note: geological formations in the area suggest that if this is true then habitation of █████ predates known human populations in the area by nearly ten-thousand years.

Dr. Richards: [Shows ████████ a photo of SCP-435-2] Do you know what this is?

████████: Y-yes.

Dr. Richards: Is it “He-Who-Made-Dark”?

████████: No. [pauses] It is his shadow.

<End Log>

Closing Statement: The non-material nature of SCP-435-2 lends credence to the hypothesis that it is a projected effect from an unknown extra-dimensional entity somehow bound to SCP-435-1. While dumping the rock into SCP-███ and making it another universe’s problem is tempting, it seems possible that the actual effect would be to only transport SCP-435-1 without transporting the entity it appears to contain, releasing “He-Who-Made-Dark” into the material universe. Therefore Contingency 435-XK-Alpha is only a last resort. — O5-█

Djoric literally has the Brothers Death spawn from HWMD's darkness, not the other way around, and has Isabel show up afterwards

HWMD And HWML too, their myths completely contradict the light and darkness of the Djoric verse and there is nothing to say that their Light and darkness are one and the same to the Light and darkness of the Djoric verse which Brother death and Isabel embodies

Ive already linked the HWMD and HWML stuff and how Djoric fit them into his lore, with the beginning of Chapter 1 Verse 1 being a cut and paste retelling of the fight between the two that lead to HWMD being split into the Darkness Above and the Darkness Below.

Though like i said i really dont care about HWMD and HWML enough atm to bother arguing for or against them right now and will be cleaning their profiles up later down the line.