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SCP-3930 question

FloweryAlex

FloweryAlex

638
64
Simple question, why is it 8-C? Due to it's nature I much doubt creation affects it's destructive capacity, and buildings have neighter 8-c AP (they cannot attack after all) nor 8-C durability (They are made of normal walls, and building level characters get their tier specifically from something that can destroy said buildings).

Actually, how dies it get it's tier at all? The being created by 10 persons being awere just seems to be dangerous because of it likely erasing stuff, and it has no reason to scaling to the buildings created.

I mean, I feel like it's plain "Varies" for the hallucination, and "unkniwn" for the 10 person apparition if we don't know anything about it.
 
Actually, reading through the stuff... can they get a tier, at all?

Everything is plain stated to be our brain trying to fill in the gaps, making a pattern, order, where there is none.

It isn't about the size of the building, or the 1 km strech, it is literally nothing that makes others into nothing, with the observer's brain making a pattern where there is something. Tier should not be a factor in any of it.
 
I'm following this. Your points make absolute sense, the buildings, flora and fauna within SCP-3930 do not actually exist, and are merely a trick of the mind.
 
The SCP itself does not exist either, that's the point. However, "creation" scales to AP, and the things within the void are decided by what is observed to be inside. If someone like Goku for example entered the void and someone percieved him doing so, then the void would be whatever level he was at least for as long as it is observed
 
That... isn't true.

It creates absolutely nothing. People hallucinate patterns, believing it does. The only reason they can interact with the hallucination is because they are patterns hallucinated by outside observers, too.

And creation doesn't automatically scale to AP. The whole concept used to scale it is that the energy needed to create something equals or outdoes the energy needed to destroy it. There is no energy here.
 
Both the original article and the wiki article make it very clear that it does not exist. It is true. We are talking about something with nonexistent physiology here. The other reason is that they do not exist, so they can interact with other things that do not exist. However, when they stop being observed, the illusion is no longer sustained.

We are talking about a collection of beings with nonexistent physiology here. By that arguement any being with nonexistent physiology wouldn't have AP at all
 
Your point makes no sense.

You are claiming it's 8-C for creating a building despite the fact that the building is a hallucination created by human brains trying to make pattern where there is none.

And a truly non-existent being would have no tier at all (11-C for lack of better possibility), but the only times we make an exception is when they show feats.

Mónika showed the ability to erase universes, most sentient voids are capable of erasing universes too, etc.

Here, you are claiming that they get a tier by creation when they create nothing, because non-existent beings interact with it (which the same profile defines as 11-C). Except they don't. The very dude states that he isn't interacting with it. He clarifies that he isn't doing anything, period, because everything he says is just the brain filling in the blanks, literally.
 
In what way?

The hallucinations are made "real." Hence why the void Carries a very real threat.

Not the case at all. There are numerous examples of characters that are even less existent than 3930 who still have AP.

Ok? That doesn't have anything to do with this.

They get a tier via creating non-existent constructs. The profile defines its unobserved form as point level because it lacks any dimension. Who is "he" and "they" in this context? Define your pronouns. There are several individuals within the SCP article
 
No. They aren't. The hallucinations are not made real, that's the point. They only become a thread once more than ten people observe them at once, and that's the pattern screamers stacking ontu each other, it's never said that the illusions become real. For all we know the pattern screamers just increase the territory of the void.

Because they have feats. This one has none because nothing is created nor destroyed. But please, actually link them instead of saying "there is". It makes it easier to point out the false equivalency.

Yes it does. They showed feats, so they get a tier. If something was just stated to not exist they'd be 11-C. Feats are needed here more so then with others.

Which they don't do. The screamers create absolutely nothing. It's the brain making patterns where there is none, hallucinating sounds, locations, etc. It's exactly because they don't actually make the hallucinations real that cameras don't work.
 
And creating non-existent structures is textbook oxymoron. Creating seething that doesn't exist isn't creating at all.

They create no matter, it cannot release energy, it cannot attack with the "constructs", so it scaling to attack potency is non-sensical.

And by that logic it's 8-A because they create a 1 km wide place.
 
Here's the way I see it. What this void does is practically a mirage. It's an illusion, a pattern created where none exists. The Pattern Screamers are very real threats, as the article explicity states, they are not real (They are to the neutrino what the neutrino is to us, less than nothing). But they are made real, and made dangerous, through observation.

It is never stated that the structures in the void are made real.
 
Since the "structures" in the void are simply the result of human perception, and are not actually created or in any way caused by 3930's actions, it shouldn't be 8-C.

However, I should point out that even creation that can't be applied to combat still gets included on profiles, e.g. Spooky and The Narrator (The Stanley Parable)
 
FloweryAlex said:
Not in AP., it's called Attack Potency for a reason.

The profiles just assume that they are capable of destroying as much as they could create.
Click to expand...
Yes, Attack Potency includes Environmental Destruction which is combat-inapplicable AP.

No they don't, I was in CRTs for them about this.
 
Environmental Destruction is destruction, just not one that can be focused on a small area.

Well that's just plain wrong. There where, what, three threads about creation? Literally all of them lead to the same answers (I'm somewhat paraphrasing Kep's responce), which was "case by case, a character should logically be able to destroy what they can create, but if they can't in-verse then they can't."

If they literally cannot apply that amount of power in any way to destruction then their rating is wrong.
 
This is how applying creation to AP works:

This has been discussed dozens of times and the answer is always the same.

  • Character X, Y or Z waves his arms and a universe pops into existence.
This means the character in question infused his body or his arms with mystical energy that, when dispersed, accomplished the feat of creating said universe.

There is absolutely no reason to assume they can't infuse their energy blasts with the same energy they put into use for creating whole dimensions, planets, galaxies or universes.

Take something similar to Boros' CSRC, which requires him to use all the energy sealed inside his body, completely exhausts him, and reduces his lifespan a lot. Theoretically, one could say he would be able to infuse the energy he used for that into a normal punch, but logic would dictate that the effects would be the same, and it'd be just one-single super punch that'd exhaust him completely and have significant side-effects, just like CSRC, so it wouldn't scale to Striking Strength or Normal AP.

But something like creating a universe with no visible side effects to your stamina, health, or reserves? We can easily assume they can infuse their serious physical attacks and energy blasts with the same energy


It scales to AP because they can logically use the energy used to create it to attack. There is no energy here... nor an attack to infuse it with.
 
Yeah, and on the wiki we treat creation = destruction, and this creation can't be focused into small areas for attacks.

Read this thread
 
No.

I literally quoted Kep's answer to that idea after much more discussion then your thread went through.
 
Yes, Kep's talking about applying energy to attacks, not about whether they get an AP section from it or not.

If you want those pages to get changed, make a CRT about it. I already did and nothing happened.
 
This was the last thread about it, and everyone that argued that creation scales for AP was for the above logic presented by Kep.

And I just made a CRT. Other profiles are a non-factors to this one unless you want to go with the popularity fallacy.

Because we have a page that dictates what is and isn't AP:

Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy.

An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces.


Environmental Damage, as it's own profile states, is the capacity to cause damage on a certain level without being able to concentrate it into a single attack.
 
And lastly, Dargoo was talking about something because he planned to change it... which never got accepted.


Not only that, but there is nothing being created here period.

There is only a literal hallucination that nothing that exists can interact with.
 
I remember that thread. Can you comprehend the difference between:

  • These are the requirements for creation scaling to attacks that can be used in threads.
  • These are the requirements for creation being put in the AP section.
Kep is only talking about the former, you are only talking about the latter.

Enviremental Damage, as it's own profile states, is the capacity to cause damage on a certain level without being able to concentrate it into a single attack.

Exactly. Creation that has no way of being turned into attacks cannot be turned into a single attack, but it still gets listed in AP just like Environmental Destruction does.

And I just made a CRT. Other profiles are a non-factors to this one unless you want to go with the popularity fallacy.

My point isn't "Other profiles have it, so it's correct", my point is that "We've already decided this guideline for other profiles, so we should use the same here", can you see the distinction?

And lastly, Dargoo was talking about something because he planned to change it... which never got accepted.

Yes, his planned change was to still keep it in the AP section, as you can read in the thread I linked.

Not only that, but there is nothing being created here period.

There is only a literal hallucination that nothing that exists can interact with.

Yeah, that's why I agree with the downgrade, as I said here.
 
Exactly. Creation that has no way of being turned into attacks cannot be turned into a single attack, but it still gets listed in AP just like Environmental Destruction does.

Why? Dargoo said that he thinks that should be done, but he planned to make a crt. The definition given by the profile disqualifies it from AP unless it can be applied to destruction. And stop using environmental destruction, because that is still a characters ability to destroy.


My point isn't "Other profiles have it, so it's correct", my point is that "We've already decided this guideline for other profiles, so we should use the same here", can you see the distinction?

Where has this been decided..? Because mods also said that speed amps can't and can be used. There needed to be a proper crt where a conclusion was reached and the results were added to the rules. Dargoo saying that he thinks it should stay there doesn't mean much.


Yes, his planned change was to still keep it in the AP section, as you can read in the thread I linked.

Yes. But this plan never came to fruition, which is my point.


Yes, his planned change was to still keep it in the AP section, as you can read in the thread I linked.

My bad, it's been a little since then. But I still disagree with your logic regardless. You're claiming that it's been decided to be that way because Dargoo said so despite it openly contradicting actual profiles that were edited specifically for this stuff. Until it's accepted... we go with stuff that is actually implemented.
 
Why?

Because that's what's been decided in prior CRTs.

The definition given by the profile disqualifies it from AP unless it can be applied to destruction.

No it doesn't. Multiple profiles have this and have had those ratings challenged, yet they've remained on the profiles.

And stop using environmental destruction, because that is still a characters ability to destroy.

P1 This wiki treats creation as equal to destruction.

P2 Environmental destruction is destruction that can't be focused onto a single point into an attack.

C Therefore, creation that can't be focused onto a single point into an attack is environmental destruction.

Where is my logic wrong here?

Where has this been decided..?

Here

Because mods also said that speed amps can't and can be used.

Standards can change, but until they do we go with existing standards. If you want to change these standards, make a CRT to change them.

There needed to be a proper crt where a conclusion was reached and the results were added to the rules.

Standards don't need to be added to the site rules to be a standard, but it would be better if they were added.

Dargoo saying that he thinks it should stay there doesn't mean much.

There were a few members there that agreed. fwiw I've seen other staff members agree with it going in AP but not striking strength/durability when I've asked them about it.

Yes. But this plan never came to fruition, which is my point.

oh mb, I misread your sentence there

But I still disagree with your logic regardless. You're claiming that it's been decided to be that way because Dargoo said so

Nope, because there was a thread that came to that conclusion, and because there's three (now four) pages which openly do things this way and haven't had them removed despite them being challenged.

despite it openly contradicting actual profiles that were edited specifically for this stuff.

What profiles were edited specifically for this reason?

Until it's accepted... we go with stuff that is actually implemented.

Yeah, what's actually implemented.
 
Won't make a full on response, but simply put:

No, creation is never equated with attack potency. It's assumed that it can translate to it, but it isn't the same, it's just related.

Creation is not destructive capability unable to be focused because it's not destructive.

There is no existing standard. This is the same as speed amps in speed equal, different people (often mods) say different things with no actual rule or standard ever existing.


There are characters capable of creating large structures but not having it applies to AP, and the opposite is true too. It wasn't fine with speed equal, nor is it here. So I'll make a crt and keep pushing it until an actual decision is implemented.
 
No, creation is never equated with attack potency. It's assumed that it can translate to it, but it isn't the same, it's just related.

Creation is not destructive capability unable to be focused because it's not destructive.

They're not literally the exact same thing, but they're treated equal feat-wise. Destroying a planet is the same rating as creating a planet, same with universes, etc.

There is no existing standard. This is the same as speed amps in speed equal, different people (often mods) say different things with no actual rule or standard ever existing.

I'd be willing to believe this if you'd ever shown me even a single example of someone saying that creation that can't be applied to SS shouldn't be in the AP section. I've already explained why Kep's comment isn't about this issue, so if you do bring a quote please bring me a different one.

There are characters capable of creating large structures but not having it applies to AP, and the opposite is true too.

Please show me one of these pages that doesn't have it in the AP section.

So I'll make a crt and keep pushing it until an actual decision is implemented.

imo it's broader than the scope of this thread and should be done in its own thread, then once that one's resolved you can bring the results back here (or you can have that thread change 3930 as well as any other page with similar creation AP).

If this seems redundant, it's done this way so it gets extra attention for the general topic, rather than the few people that would check out a niche CRT. It's why the speed equal issue eventually went to its own CRT rather than forever being discussed in various vs threads.
 
They're not literally the exact same thing, but they're treated equal feat-wise. Destroying a planet is the same rating as creating a planet, same with universes, etc.

Not always, no. Again, as said above, it's assumed that the energy used to do it can be used in an attack. In cases where this is blatantly false it doesn't equate.


I'd be willing to believe this if you'd ever shown me even a single example of someone saying that creation that can't be applied to SS shouldn't be in the AP section. I've already explained why Kep's comment isn't about this issue, so if you do bring a quote please bring me a different one.

Han Jee-Ha wasn't let to be 7-A in his first key by making dungeons for that exact reason, tough I'm not going to bother going two years back in content to find that quote.


Please show me one of these pages that doesn't have it in the AP section.

See above.


imo it's broader than the scope of this thread and should be done in its own thread, then once that one's resolved you can bring the results back here (or you can have that thread change 3930 as well as any other page with similar creation AP).

If this seems redundant, it's done this way so it gets extra attention for the general topic, rather than the few people that would check out a niche CRT. It's why the speed equal issue eventually went to its own CRT rather than forever being discussed in various vs threads.

That is what I meant.
 
Not always, no. Again, as said above, it's assumed that the energy used to do it can be used in an attack. In cases where this is blatantly false it doesn't equate.

And again, the same is done with destruction with Environmental Destruction, when energy used to do it can't be used in an attack.

Han Jee-Han wasn't let to be 7-A in his first key by making dungeons for that exact reason, tough I'm not going to bother going two years back in content to find that quote.

His first key doesn't even have creation. It also seems plausible that it was denied due to being an outlier.

That is what I meant.

Ahh great, I've commented there.
 
And again, the same is done with destruction with Environmental Destruction, when energy used to do it can't be used in an attack.

Because that is Destruction. It destructive capability regardless, just not one you can use to punch, which is what the AP page describes itself as. There is no destruction in creation, and it contradicts both pages' description.


Pocket Reality Manipulation, and no it's not. His presence alone made a pocket dimension with 99 levels, each as large as a city, real and physical.
 
Because that is destruction. It destructive capability regardless, just not one you can use to punch, which is what the AP page describes itself as. There is no destruction in creation, and it contradicts both pages' description.

I think you're getting too hung up on the literal words. Bringing summer to an island isn't damaging the environment, yet it's listed as an example of Environmental Destruction on the page.

Pocket Reality Manipulation

Oh, my bad, you're right. This should be corrected either way then.

and no it's not. His presence alone made a pocket dimension with 99 levels, each as large as a city, real and physical.

That doesn't stop it from being an outlier btw.
 
Bump.

Also, should 3930 even have its 11-C tier? Lacking dimension doesn't make something 0-D, it makes something Unknown. And AP/Dura are about how much physical damage can be dished out and received, I don't remember anything about 3930 being able to dish out 0-D damage.

If anything it should be tiered like other void characters, such as The Darkness (Monogatari Series) (i.e. put at Unknown).
 
Yes. The "unobserved vs observed" should just be its range, if it's included. But I'm not sure what should be done about its speed.
 
It has come to my attention that 3930 has some interactions with 682, considering it is the basis for 682's non-existent physiology. I'll have to read up on the story, but I think it should function as proof that the structures within the void are actual structures, not just hallucinations as people try to claim.
 
I've read it, it's not a story but part of 682's experiment log, it doesn't establish anything in the void as actual structures.

What happens is: 682 gets chucked into the void, but despite not existing it somehow walks around as an invisible hallucination thing and ***** up a bunch of guards, before regenerating back.
 
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