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SCP-3930 question

If we for some reason decide that they aren't point level, which I don't agree with, then they should be put as either bellow average human or some lower dimensional tier. The quote on the profile says enough, and I think it should qualify for a reality-fiction difference bellow humans. At the very least, their unobserved form is so weak that the difference between them and neutrino is the difference between neutrino and us. The whole idea behind reality-fiction difference is that the difference between the characters is so great that the lesser one doesn't even exist from their perspective, which I think is very clearly the case here. Granted, they do indeed have non-existent physiology, but the point still stands. Them being outright stated to lack any dimension is just icing on the cake, and while you are right that lacking dimension does not grant point level on its own, this should be enough context to ground its unobserved form solidly at that level

As for the buildings, they are "creating" nonexistent structures, which would translate to AP. I think a Possibly should be tacked on to his range tier, since they can only be interacted with by other non-existent beings, and our standards towards nonexistent physiology makes this strange. I won't say they exist in the void, but they are 'constructed' there.

Remember that the being's intelligence and even their ability to convey the void remained as long as they were observed. It makes no sense for something like the house to be just raw illusion when no one was observing it until it was mentioned by the person who does not exist. That person who does not exist was maintained by them being observed was able to observe the house on their own, therefore, if another non-existent being who could maintain themselves without needing to be observed entered the void, they would likely be able to observe the structures within the void as well. However, there is clearly some question here even if I do not agree with it, so I can concede that a Possibly should be put on the tier range of his observed key.
 
Them being to the neutrino what the neutrino is to us does seem like it would probably qualify for 10-C. But lacking dimension is never an AP feat, I don't think this context is enough to change that.

They don't create nonexistent structures though, their whole deal is essentially perception manipulation - those structures can only be detected by sentient beings, as they're the observer's brain filling in information.

It does make sense for it to be an illusion even if it wasn't observed until it was mentioned.

I don't think the range is an issue or needs a possibly, we know the area it covers, the issue is that we don't think it's AP, just hax within that range.
 
Idk what makes you say it is never an AP feat, since that is fundamentally what being 0-dimensional is. Them being less than nothing from our perspective is almost word for word our description of a reality-fiction difference, although in the other direction of course.

" In most cases, these meta-layers have a reality-fiction difference, meaning, the difference between each layer (not the dimensions of the layer) is like the difference between reality and fiction. Basically, to a higher layer entity, the lower entity is so insignificant that it can hardly be called real. "

Now, the SCP Foundation already has a composite hierarchy, and I'm obviously not claiming that 3930 is in a lower layer of this hierarchy, but it should qualify them for a reality-fiction difference bellow humans within this specific layer.

When unobserved, there is nothing within the void, in that respect you are right. However, the structures being just total illusions doesn't make sense either. After all, in the exploration log, the non-existent class D mentions the structures within the void while no one was watching the void. The non-existent D-class was being observed due to talking on the radio, obviously, but while this dude that does not exist is wondering through a forrest that does not exist, he tells the people listening about the stuff he is finding. if the things in the void were only illusions, then the only thing he should find is a forrest as that is all they had percieved from the void and nothing more. He found the structures, doors, windows, beings, clearing, etc. all without anyone mentioning those things to him. This nonexistent being found these non-existent structures without the things he was finding being observed. Hell, the being that he finds in the void was specifically not known to the people who were observing the void at this point. Due to this, there is no way they could just be in their perception when they were not percieving them in any way.
 
Because lacking something doesn't tell us what they can do and what they can physically affect. If something lacks dimension but can't affect 0-d-equivalent constructs then they're still not 11-C, since they don't have 11-C AP.

Being less than nothing from our perspective is a consequence of reality-fiction interaction, not a qualifying factor for it. Even verses with lower universes that exist on planck-length scales of size don't count as reality-fiction interactions, just lower values of 10-C.

There's nothing supporting 3930 being a reality-fiction difference below.

The D Class mentions it while no-one's observing the void itself, but their observation of the D class IS part of the illusion, and the illusion is expanding on itself.

There's no logical throughline for "If the things in the void are only illusions, then the illusions should only be able to describe things people on the outside have already seen." That's nonsense. Illusions can be things that the people perceiving haven't seen before.
 
Not on its own, but given more context, it certainly can. If we worked things by your standards for 11-C, then not even the poster child of the tier would qualify, since truly point-level beings should not be able to do anything at all. The only exception would be those who qualify via multiple reality-fiction differences

I'm not sure that is correct. Being higher than a 3D being to the degree that they basically do not exist is one of the things that is necesarry to prove a reality-fiction difference. I see no reason why it happening in the other direction would be any different.

In the lower layer? yes, I agree with that.

The structures only existing in their perception. They are perceiving the D-Class and the forest, but that's it. They only started perceiving the things the D-class mentioned, when the D-class mentioned it. The things would not be manifest for the D-class to perceive them if they exclusively only manifest while observed.

That's a misrepresentation of my point. My point is more akin to "If the structures are only in the perception of the observers, then there is no way that these structures that are not observed can be manifested in the void." I am not claiming that illusions cannot be new concepts to the observer, but the use of term illusion carries certain connotations that are decieving when applied here. This isn't some outside force creating an image in their mind.

If someone just looks out into the void, then the forest is "created" by their brain looking at the surroundings and filling in the blanks. That makes sense, since they are expecting it. However, there is nothing for them to manifest in this situation. They didn't think, "oh shit, what if they found a house" and then the D-class was like "oh shit, I find a house."

I'll explain this in terms of cause and effect:

Researchers are looking out into the void -> Looking into the void causes their brain to create patterns where there are none -> those patterns cause the void to be a forest, since everything around the void is a forest.

That's cool, and creates some clean cause and effect. But there is no way that they could have caused that structure to come into manifestation, at least not directly. Let me show you:

D-Class sees the structure -> D-Class tells them about the structure -> researchers now percieve the structure -> structure exists in their perception -> structure manifests in void -> D-Class sees the structure -> D-Class could only now tell them about the structure -> etc.

Unless the researches already expected to have the D-class find the structure in the void, which they had no reason to, then the structure could not manifest since it does not exist in their perception. When they are on the phone with the D-class, their brain doesn't have a "nothing" to fill a pattern in on. Your model for these events is not stable.
 
MoP still qualifies. Flatland talks about dimensions as degrees of infinity, and thus, being 0-D is being three degrees of infinity below 3-D, and so it qualifies for the tier. EDIT: And actually, if Flatland didn't have that context, none of its characters would be in tier 11. This was brought up during the recent tiering system revisions.

I don't think that's necessary for proving a reality-fiction difference, and like I already said, just being vastly larger such that the smaller thing barely exists (but still technically does exist) does not qualify for a reality-fiction difference. That's why Disembodied Thought isn't High 1-B despite seeing Feedback Spheres as a planck length, despite them containing an infinite universe within themselves (these infinite universes, in turn, contain more Feedback Spheres ad infinitum).

In any way, not just a lower narrative.

Are you saying that when they looked into the void they saw a forest, and when the D-class described structures there they started seeing structures inside/instead of the forest? Because otherwise I don't see the relevance of your explanation.

When they are on the phone with the D-class, their brain doesn't have a "nothing" to fill a pattern in on.

Yes they do. They are not on the phone with the D-class, they are on the phone with nothing, and their brain is filling in that nothing with a conversation with the D-class. That's how SCP-3930 works. I'm pretty sure this is very explicit in the article.
 
Yeah, I'm with agreement with Agnaa for the most part. 3930 turns something into nothing. Simple as that. The researchers weren't talking to anyone, like literally. It's all just elaborate perception manip, which might I add, isn't on 3930's page.
 
Oh I see, so the standards have truly changed then

I think I see our disagreement on this point then. I dont think the difference between us and 3930 is a matter of size. The neutrino may be less than us due to their size, but 3930 isn't necessarily lesser than the neutrino due to being "smaller", in fact, 3930 has no size at all. This is a difference in power that has nothing to do with size. I may have completely misunderstood your point tho, so correct me if I'm missing it

Then nah, I disagree. I think that if the difference in power is so great that it's less than nothing, to the point that even neutrino which would probably be the weakest thing we can percieve, is so great that 3930 is less than nothing compared to them, not due to size but due to power, then that should be a reality-fiction difference

Not seeing, since they were not looking at the void, but perceiving it in other ways. They were just picturing the void as a forest in their minds before, but once the D class described the structure, they then pictured the forest within the void as having a clearing and structures. Which would not manifest within the void unless they were already perceiving it as such

Now you've totally missed my point. Yes, the D-class was only continuing to be a thing in the void due to them perceiving him. He does not exist, you are right. What you completely missed was, their image of the D-class venturing through a forest that only manifests as they percieve it to be and picture in their minds as such, would not have manifested any sort of new structures that they had not already been picturing in their minds. They only thought of the house when the d class mentioned seeing a house, so the manifestations in the void can not be only within their perception. In fact, iirc, there were multiple researchers who percieved the same thing. Their perception caused it, but their delusions would have to be completely personalized if it only existed in their perception.

The house, however, has nothing to be filled in on. They already filled that "nothing." That "nothing" has been filled with a forest, and the "nothing" in the sound was filled with the D-class wondering through the "nothing" that was filled by the previously mentioned forest. There are no new "nothing" that would cause some new delusion of random ass houses, being, clearings, doors, windows, etc.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Yeah, I'm with agreement with Agnaa for the most part. 3930 turns something into nothing. Simple as that. The researchers weren't talking to anyone, like literally. It's all just elaborate perception manip, which might I add, isn't on 3930's page.
Click to expand...
He completely missed my point. The person they are talking to does not exist, yes. The perception warping is only caused because them staring into the nothing of the void causes their minds to fill it. They heard a "nothing" on the radio so their minds filled it with the d-class because that is what they expected, so their minds went with that. But there was no "nothing" to fill with that house. The house only exists when they perceive it, so there is no way that some uncaused delusion manifested when they had not percieved it.

Let me put it another way: they must percieve the house for the house to manifest, but they can only start to percieve the house if it is manifest in the void (due to it just being what the d-class is describing to them). It makes no sense for it to only exist in their perception due to this specific point.
 
Sure, but I think in this case it's pretty explicitly just non-existent physiology as a power, rather than not-existing in the way that fiction doesn't exist. And there's no reason to assume reality-fiction differences come into play.

That has nothing to do with reality-fiction.

They man manifest new structures in their mind by virtue of there being gaps that their mind wants to fill in. There's no rule that what their mind fills in has to be a forest or what they consciously previously expected.

Their perception isn't created by their mind. They're created by pattern seekers, hence why it's shared between sentient beings. That civilization which is angry at its own nonexistence is emerging in the same ways out of nonexistence that people perceive.

There is new "nothing", the voice of the D-class as they walked into the void.

EDIT: To try to rephrase it, the thing that people perceive is kinda created by pattern screamers in the nothingness, which is then perceived in the heads of sentient beings as whatever illusion gets created, hence why it's consistent.
 
At first it may appear as such, and that's what makes this complicated. However, the doctor clearly frames this as a power difference, and as we know, non-existent physiology in and of itself has no relation to tiering

Yeah, which is why I was confused by you repeatedly bringing size into this. You brought up size, not me

The reason why they percieve the void as a forest almost as a baseline template is because a forest is what surrounds the void. The brain sees a bunch of forest, sees a gap and goes "oh shit, better fill that. What's between forest and forest, probably more forest." There is no reason why they would suddenly spawn a random ass apartment complex in the middle of the Russian wilderness, especially since this is all based on what they percieve. They saw a d-class suddenly stop existing so their brain continued to picture it in the void, therefore it manifested in the void, or I should saw continued to be manifest.

They literally say that it is. The brain creates patterns from nothing in the same way we see pictures in static. The pattern screamers take the form of what they are perceived as, within the void.

The voice of the d-class is what is filling the nothing, not a nothing that they are filling.

That's flat out wrong. The pattern screamers do not create the illusions any more than static on the radio creates the stuff we hear in it. However, because we perceive the void that is them as different things, they take that form. If what you said was true, than there would be no reason for them to take the form of some random ass matter that disappeared due to trying to enter a 0D void. There would be no reason they would arbitrarily take the form of a forest just because there happen to be some oddly shaped green life forms that happen to do some odd chemical processes called photosynthesis. It is clearly dictated by what the mind fills the void with, not the other way around.
 
If a non-existent being is described as outputting few joules because they don't exist, this is not proof of a reality-fiction difference. It's called a reality-fictio difference, not a existence-nonexistence difference. There needs to be mention of fictionality here for it to qualify.

You brought up neutrinos, which is why I went into size. mb if this was inaccurate.

Sure but that doesn't explain everything they perceive there.

I agree with the static analogy, mb if I phrased it wrong.

The voice of the d-class stops existing as soon as the d-class enters the void. Hence, it is a nothing that they are filling since they continue to hear it afterwards, even though their non-sentient equipment shows that it does not exist.

I was trying to say that different people have the same thing filled in by their minds, even though different people would have different preconceived notions of how someone would talk, etc, and so their recollection of conversations should diverge once someone enters the void.

But all of this is seriously detracting from the main issue. It is EXTEREMELY explicit that nothing at all exists in the void. And so, characters can not get 8-C for hallucinations of things that do not exist. If your interpretation is that buildings actually exist in there that is explicitly and repeatedly contradicted by the text.
 
Even when they gain enough observation to manifest themselves and emerge from the void, they don't like, start existing. Literally the only difference, according to definition, between a fictitious person not existing and someone else just not existing, is basically that the fictitious one is somehow conveyed to be the product of one's imagination. There isn't much of a difference otherwise, unless the flaw is that they didn't perceive 3930 as a book before it emerged from the void and erased them

I brought up the neutrinos because that is the example they use. I understand the misconception, but the difference is about power, here

My main point is that the existence of other stuff in the void is there even tho the D-Class is just manifested due to them perceiving him, proves that there are other structures within the void, so the structures only existing in their perception is not possible.

Oh, ok, good.

Yes, exactly. The Voice of the d-class is filling the silence (or the subtle noise the doctor describes, whatever) left by him suddenly ceasing to exist in the void. But they had no reason to percieve a giant ass appartment building for no reason since the voice of the d-class wondering through the forest already filled that "nothing"

That's part of my point. The log proves that they percieved the same thing, but if it only exists in their perception, then it should be divergenent. Since they do not diverge, it proves it does not souly exist in their perception, even if them percieving something is what causes it to manifest.

Yes, it none of it exist, I agree. But, you make the logical leap that because everything in the void has non-existent physiology that suddenly they cannot be used to translate to AP. The hallucinations are what cause the non-existent shit to manifest within the void. The building that they created has non-existent physiology/structure, but that does not disqualify it from being used for tiering anymore than Vishnu's authority being able to destroy/dominate the Non-existent void that is Kama.

I'll use Fallen London for an example because it is the one I am most familiar with. Parabola is a realm that does not exist. It is made repeatedly clear that nothing within it exists and it itself does not exist, and it is nothing more than dreams at best. However, The Second City was able to create a star within this realm that does not exist, and it is still a valid feat. Nothing exists in Parabola. Nothing exists with the void that is 3930. Those of the Second City are able to craft massive celestial structures that do not exist. the pattern screamers within 3930 are able to manifest a random ass apartment building, that does not exist. Both are valid feats.
 
My dude it explicitly says that it doesn't exist at all in any shape of form. How can you even try to argue the opposite?

And no, "creating" a nonexistent building isn't similar in any way to controlling a huge ass nonexistent realm.

Doesn't help that this SCP clearly doesn't treat nonexistence as something you can actual shit off anyway.
 
I'm not saying it exists, obviously. I'm saying the that the building itself has non-existent structure/physiology.

Who said anything about controlling an entire non-existent realm? Creating non-existent stars is considered a valid feat, so why would creating a non-existent building be any different?

Not sure what u mean by this
 
Literally the only difference, according to definition, between a fictitious person not existing and someone else just not existing, is basically that the fictitious one is somehow conveyed to be the product of one's imagination.

And this difference is extremely important, since as part of someone's imagination we transcend and control it, while 3930 is just saying that it doesn't exist and is weak. The reality-fiction part of "reality-fiction interaction' is REALLY important. Stop downplaying the importance of it.

My main point is that the existence of other stuff in the void is there even tho the D-Class is just manifested due to them perceiving him, proves that there are other structures within the void, so the structures only existing in their perception is not possible.

That doesn't prove that there's other structures existing in the void. It can still be an illusion.

Yes, exactly. The Voice of the d-class is filling the silence (or the subtle noise the doctor describes, whatever) left by him suddenly ceasing to exist in the void. But they had no reason to percieve a giant ass appartment building for no reason since the voice of the d-class wondering through the forest already filled that "nothing"

Their imagination just ran wild or something. There's far, far from enough backing to say there's actual nonexistent buildings in there, and far, far more backing for it being an illusion.

That's part of my point. The log proves that they percieved the same thing, but if it only exists in their perception, then it should be divergenent. Since they do not diverge, it proves it does not souly exist in their perception, even if them percieving something is what causes it to manifest.

This is not at all true, things that just come from their perception like the forest and the conversation with the d-class stay the same. There's nothing establishing it's more than an illusion besides you thinking they couldn't have expected a building there, which I think is too flimsy.
 
I'm not really sure why it being the imagination of someone is what makes us transcendent over it. The point of a reality-fiction difference power wise is that the greater is so infinitely more powerful than it that it basically does not exist from our perspective. The doctor conveys the power difference via saying they are less than nothing, but that is not necessarily related to their non-existence.

No, it really doesn't work. A new illusion has no reason to come into existence, at all. They were not observing the void beyond the dude's voice, so there would be no reason for a building to suddenly come into existence.

That's speculation at best, and there is no basis for their imaginations just randomly running wild. Your interpretation of things just being illusions is surface level at best, and has a shit ton of holes in it as I have proven above.

Do you wanna explain why it isn't true? There is a forrest around it so they percieved the forrest, and it took the form of a forrest, and the D-class walked into the void, so they continued to percieve him. They both observed that, and it makes sense why that part of their illusion would be the same even if it existed in their perception, but since other stuff just randomly happens and it does not diverge there is no way it could only be an illusion. Why are you pretending like the building was the only thing they found in there? What basis is there for them to expect a random ass unknown being to be in there? what basis is there for the observed dude's skin to be weird, chalky, and fade in and out of being there? What basis is there for them to suddenly observe an impossibly large room?

Hell, I can prove that it doesn't only exist in their perception. They were picturing stuff being in the void that was not there. The stairs that the people were picturing being there, the guy stated clearly was not there. They were also already picturing multiple exists to the room, yet the D-class search for 4 hours and found none. If it just existed in their perception, then they would have had one of the several entrances/exits they discussed and had already been picturing. The D-Class is also the one who figures out the nature of the void before the researchers do, which would be completely impossible if the D-Class only existed in their perception (because, something that only exists in your imagination cannot give you information you don't already know). Therefore, they were maintaining the form of the D-Class, not purely imagining him. The D-Class also realized his own non-existence before they did, which would be extra not-possible. If they had realized and believed that he truly did not exist, then he would have stopped existing right at that point. The D-Class had access to info that the scientist only later gave the researchers, which is completely impossible if it is just their imagination.
 
I'm not really sure why it being the imagination of someone is what makes us transcendent over it. The point of a reality-fiction difference power wise is that the greater is so infinitely more powerful than it that it basically does not exist from our perspective. The doctor conveys the power difference via saying they are less than nothing, but that is not necessarily related to their non-existence.

Jesus christ dude. It's not just or only about being the imagination.

Being essentially nothing is a CONSEQUENCE of a reality-fiction transcendence, not a REQUIREMENT for it.

If you're much stronger than a dude, cool, but it's not a reality-fiction difference unless there's an actual reality-fiction difference. Even if it was something that could be equalized to the same jump in power as a reality-fiction difference, it wouldn't be a reality-fiction difference without reality and fiction.

But I don't think any quotes you've sent me substantiate an actual qualitative, uncountably infinite difference in power. Disembodied Thought has "Feedback Spheres", objects which it perceives as one planck length but which actually contain an infinite universe, and it can keep ascending up hierarchies of these. This is still only High 3-A and goes WAY further upwards than the "It's to a neutrino what a neutrino is to a human" example.

Sorry if I'm starting to get a little annoyed about this, but this is my 6th post on this point.

I'll try to get to the rest of your post another time.
 
I really don't see anything remotely implying any Reality-Fiction Differences here. The scientist says the Pattern Screamers are "to the neutrino what the neutrino is to us" not because we utterly dwarf them in size or see them as akin to insignificant fiction, but because they are not real in the first place. This is a comparision between states of being that are just fundamentally different from one another, rather than one being the superior of the two.

8-C indeed doesn't make sense either, and using the D-Class' voice to argue that they just had Nonexistent Physiology or whatever doesn't hold too much water either, because the people that enter 3930 simply cease to exist altogether in a 100% literal sense, as opposed to remaining in some abstract state of "nothingness" which can be manipulated and interacted with, as is portrayed in lots of verses out there. It's also blatantly said in the article itself that 3930 can't be manipulated in any way whatsoever, so.

It's even explicitly stated that the conversation between the D-Class and 3930/3/7 (one of the researchers conducting the investigation) wasn't actually happening, and the entire dialogue was being spoken by 3930/3/7 in the first place, who just perceived the D-Class as being real enough to talk and interact with him by audio. Said D-Class also pretty bluntly states that nothing there actually exists in any way, and if the researcher "looked away" he would stop listening to his voice altogether, which further hammers home the fact that all of this was just occuring in his perception, caused by his brain "filling in the gaps" in white noise, as the article itself states.

There is also how the russian scientist who researched 3930 describes it as a mirror which merely reflects the tendency which the human mind has of imposing order and imposing patterns where neither of those things exist.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I really don't see anything remotely implying any Reality-Fiction Differences here. The scientist says the Pattern Screamers are "to the neutrino what the neutrino is to us" not because we utterly dwarf them in size or see them as akin to insignificant fiction, but because they are not real in the first place. This is a comparision between states of being that are just fundamentally different from one another, rather than one being the superior of the two.
8-C indeed doesn't make sense either, and using the D-Class' voice to argue that they just had Nonexistent Physiology or whatever doesn't hold too much water either, because the people that enter 3930 simply cease to exist altogether in a 100% literal sense, as opposed to remaining in some abstract state of "nothingness" which can be manipulated and interacted with, as is portrayed in lots of verses out there. It's also blatantly said in the article itself that 3930 can't be manipulated in any way whatsoever, so.

It's even explicitly stated that the conversation between the D-Class and 3930/3/7 (one of the researchers conducting the investigation) wasn't actually happening, and the entire dialogue was being spoken by 3930/3/7 in the first place, who just perceived the D-Class as being real enough to talk and interact with him by audio. Said D-Class also pretty bluntly states that nothing there actually exists in any way, and if the researcher "looked away" he would stop listening to his voice altogether, which further hammers home the fact that all of this was just occuring in his perception, caused by his brain "filling in the gaps" in white noise, as the article itself states.

There is also how the russian scientist who researched 3930 describes it as a mirror which merely reflects the tendency which the human mind has of imposing order and imposing patterns where neither of those things exist.
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My main case is that the difference in power is so segnfificant that it would be the same difference in power, but if you need to have it be explicitly stated to be a fictional relationship then I guess it does not apply

The distinction you draw makes no sense. The only reason they cannot interact with the void that is 3930 is because they don't have void manipulation. Its as simple as that. If someone had void manip, then they could interact with it, but since they don't, they can't. What is this form of non-existent physiology you speak of which regular people can interact with, because I have never encountered this before? The people who enter cease to exist, but because they are perceived 3930 takes their form. Of course it can't be manipulated by the foundation staff, but if someone like Salt (Fallen London) were there, then they could use their void manipulation interact with 3930. Unless you are claiming that 3930 could not be interacted with even if they had void manip, in which case that has its own issues

I would like the quote that says that the conversation was not happening. Yes, the device was not working, and once they realized it and they stopped observing him, the void returned to its unobserved state. Here is a quote that proves there is a building in the void, although it takes several forms:

" Dr. Vasiliev: Ah… (Pauses) Perception is key. Everything you can test for will tell you there is an absence there, yes? But you look at it and you still see forest and trees and even animals. Walk far enough in, and you might see a building, or people. But none of it is real. By the time you see the building, in whatever shape it takes, you're not real either. You have become little more than the reflection of yourself perceived by someone else's mind. This thing, this void… (pauses) It is a hateful mirror. It desires you to look at it. The more who look, the more hateful it becomes. "

Yes, he says they are not real, but real in this context clearly refers to existent, since he also described 3930 itself as not being real, which (as you all have so clearly layed out) is refering to it not existing, not them being not real in the sense that they are fiction or fantasy of the mind. He even clearly points out that you will still be concious after you walk into the void for as long as you are observed. There is no way you could still be concious if you just existed in someone's mind. In addition, it is absolutely impossible for a figment of your imagination to introduce information that you did not know to you, which proves that he does not only exist in the mind and perception of the observer. The brain "filling in the gap" that is the void is what makes it take the form. When they "looked away" the void returned to its unobserved state, so the D-Class no longer was there.

Yes, but that in no way means that the void is not taking the shapes that it, as a hateful mirror, is reflecting from the minds of humans. The human mind imposing shapes that do not exist on the void is what makes it take that form.
 
My main case is that the difference in power is so segnfificant that it would be the same difference in power, but if you need to have it be explicitly stated to be a fictional relationship then I guess it does not apply

Being to a neutrino what a neutrino is to a human is not an uncountably infinite difference in power. So it is not the same difference in power. It is not an actual lower-order realm, it's simply a very very small part of the same realm.
 
Agnaa said:
My main case is that the difference in power is so segnfificant that it would be the same difference in power, but if you need to have it be explicitly stated to be a fictional relationship then I guess it does not apply
Being to a neutrino what a neutrino is to a human is not an uncountably infinite difference in power. So it is not the same difference in power. It is not an actual lower-order realm, it's simply a very very small part of the same realm.
Click to expand...
I see. I was also going for the references to them not being real as a justification for the reality-fiction-like power difference, but if y'all are insistent that it just referse to them not-existing, then cool. That works for my other argument
 
Since we have at least come to agreement that 3930's unobserved form should not be point level, how does Unknown, Possibly bellow average human sound?
 
Seems good.
 
Bump.
 
Bump.
 
Bump.
 
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