Santōryū vs Niten Ichi-ryū

[Nierre]

Exactly

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Several ranged techniques. Speed amps that blitz her. Two large AOE attacks that'd make it difficult for her to avoid getting hit. And possible dura negation via Enma.
Her wincons are a big AP advantage and a very iffy argument about him having no chance against her eye (which was proven wrong in canon several times) And it isn't Zero Musashi, which is why this fight is even happening without it being hax stomp

zoro has no dura negs he only has limited dura negs with fire that attacks internal organs while servants have resistance to fire and explosions inside the body

people always say musashi's abilities are hyperbole even though it's in her profile, whereas they carry abilities that aren't even in zoro's profile

 

[Nierre]

zoro has no dura negs he only has limited dura negs with fire that attacks internal organs while servants have resistance to fire and explosions inside the body

....?

 

[SnookB]

If there is a outcome where she can win, and there is because of the AP advantage, she can choose that outcome. Unless you are saying, ignoring her eyes for now, that she has no future where she can win which makes this a stomp.

I'm not saying she has no future where she can't win, I'm just saying her eye's description says literally NOTHING about her automatically WINNING in that future. It just says she never wastes her strokes and always lands on the best outcome possible. Against Ivan she wasn't wasting a strike, she was just not doing damage with it and would've gotten blown away by Ivan. Her Eye guarantees she doesn't miss her target, not that she'll always be the victor somehow. That's like implying she can one shot a character regardless of their Dura or anything because "it's the best outcome", when it's literally specified that it's always her ideal outcome ON AN ATTACK. Not ON THE ENTIRE FIGHT.

Again, her landing on the best outcome doesn't equate to "she lands a solid death blow on Zoro", it equates to "She lands an attack right on Zoro", and whether he defends against it or not is entirely up to how he is as a combatant. In THIS case, his combat abilities and precognition make blocking her attack all the more possible. (Be it through technique, or using Busoshoku to lessen the degree of damage, etc..). Saying it's a stomp on either side is flat out wrong because neither would make it that one sided.

 

[Excaliburhuman]

I literally posted scans where she says she saw a future where she could win and all other future she will lose and she choose the one to win...

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Hey man, no one had that energy to readed the whole thread that went to 5 pages

I know, I'm just annoyed with those who started the FRA train even though haven't come to a clear conclusion yet

 

[ShivaShakti]

I find the fact that this thread has not yet been locked curious. Is this not a stomp in Musashi's favour?

 

[RazumaHiroki]

zoro has no dura negs he only has limited dura negs with fire that attacks internal organs while servants have resistance to fire and explosions inside the body

Uuh.... Why are you bringing up Luffy's red hawk? Zoro's Enma and Goken aren't even fire or explosion based.

 

[SnookB]

zoro has no dura negs he only has limited dura negs with fire that attacks internal organs while servants have resistance to fire and explosions inside the body

people always say musashi's abilities are hyperbole even though it's in her profile, whereas they carry abilities that aren't even in zoro's profile

Then you need to re-read the roof fight, my friend. Zoro uses ENMA and Kaido is urged to dodge it, implying Enma could bypass his scales.

Zoro then uses Black Rope Tatsumaki, and you see exactly ONE CUT on Kaido, meaning only one blade of the three went through Kaido's scales:

And it's ENMA that's focused on when Zoro does that, both by Kaido and the narrative consistency of the fact that Enma is the only blade out of three that can negate Kaido's durability.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I find the fact that this thread has not yet been locked curious. Is this not a stomp in Musashi's favour?

Not a stomp, just look and read the whole Zoro arguments if you want to

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

....?

that's what it says on his profile

also zoro doesn't have a speed amp.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Then you need to re-read the roof fight, my friend. Zoro uses ENMA and Kaido is urged to dodge it, implying Enma could bypass his scales.

Zoro then uses Black Rope Tatsumaki, and you see exactly ONE CUT on Kaido, meaning only one blade of the three went through Kaido's scales:

And it's ENMA that's focused on when Zoro does that, both by Kaido and the narrative consistency of the fact that Enma is the only blade out of three that can negate Kaido's durability.

it's not on the profile, make a CRT then

 

[Nierre]

also zoro doesn't have a speed amp.

Shishi Sonson is the speed amp

 

[ShivaShakti]

Not a stomp, just look and read the whole Zoro arguments if you want to

And how exactly does Zoro overcome Servant Invulnerability? One of the same reasons that lead to his match vs Kojiro to be removed.

 

[Eminiteable]

Then you need to re-read the roof fight, my friend. Zoro uses ENMA and Kaido is urged to dodge it, implying Enma could bypass his scales.

Zoro then uses Black Rope Tatsumaki, and you see exactly ONE CUT on Kaido, meaning only one blade of the three went through Kaido's scales:

And it's ENMA that's focused on when Zoro does that, both by Kaido and the narrative consistency of the fact that Enma is the only blade out of three that can negate Kaido's durability.

Thats not durability negation

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You have two options, her fate hax force a future in which a tier 1 being is cut or she have tier 1 AP. So, again, I from the bottom of my heart can't see how Zoro can win when in the fight against MHX it was showed that she use her eyes in fun fights and that even knowing what she is doing she can't be stopped.

Regarding her Battle Continuation EX:

With Battle Continuation A Lancer after have the heart pierced killed Kirei.

With Battle Continuation A Heracles the 12 lives of his legend and almost killed Gilgamesh.

And with also a Battle Continuation A in Atlantis I remember to saw that Achilles also continued to fight after don't have heart, it was the fight with Chirion and hundred of soldiers.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Shishi Sonson is the speed amp

it's not on the profile, make a CRT then

Speed amp it's not on the profile.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

And how exactly does Zoro overcome Servant Invulnerability? One of the same reasons that lead to his match vs Kojiro to be removed.

Haki and Enma i think

 

[RazumaHiroki]

it's not on the profile, make a CRT then

Seems like this is a straight confirmation to me that you haven't read Zoro's profile properly. No, perhaps, you doesn't seem to understand what most of his abilities does, his "fire manipulation" isn't his limited durability negation it's just Zoro copying Kinemon's fighting style -- cutting fire and generating fire out of nowhere, and speed amp is Shishin sonson. Instead of telling us to make a CTR I advice you to read his profile properly this time.

 

[Eminiteable]

Speed amp it's not on the profile.

It is, literally check the speed section

 

[Excaliburhuman]

You have two options, her fate hax force a future in which a tier 1 being is cut or she have tier 1 AP. So, again, I from the bottom of my heart can't see how Zoro can win when in the fight against MHX it was showed that she use her eyes in fun fights and that even knowing what she is doing she can't be stopped.

Isn't cutting Ivan Zero Musashi? Either way if there is a future where Musashi wins she will just choose that future.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Uuh.... Why are you bringing up Luffy's red hawk? Zoro's Enma and Goken aren't even fire or explosion based.

i saw it on zoro's profile not luffy.

 

[SnookB]

Thats not durability negation

Then what is it if not the only thing possible- Bypassing Kaido's scale was done by everyone on the roof via dura negation (Killer through intangible sonic waves, Luffy through Ryou, and the scabbars through Ryou as well.) Why does it differ for Zoro?

 

[SnookB]

Regarding her Battle Continuation EX:

Her battle continuation EX is on her profile and says she pretends to be dead, uses tricks and escapes to fight another day. Nothing implies she can do what Cu and Heracles can do. Not when it's specified to work entirely differently.

 

[Eminiteable]

Then what is it if not the only thing possible- Bypassing Kaido's scale was done by everyone on the roof via dura negation (Killer through intangible sonic waves, Luffy through Ryou, and the scabbars through Ryou as well.) Why does it differ for Zoro?

He never bypassed the scales? He cut straight through them. When he unleashes Enma it draws out more or his haki making his attacks stronger, that's all.

 

[SnookB]

He never bypassed the scales? He cut straight through them. When he unleashes Enma it draws out more or his haki making his attacks stronger, that's all.

Which leads back to Roof Piece Zoro having 6-B AP.. Which is a discussion for another day- understandable! My b

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

It is, literally check the speed section

This is speed equalized, and Zoro doesn't always start with Shishi Sonson.

musashi's fatehax will work first because it is a thought based ability

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Haki and Enma i think

@ShivaShakti Another reason why Sasaki vs Zoro got removed was because how that thread turned into a war zone

 

[Eminiteable]

This is speed equalized

Speed amps still count in speed equalised matches, in the Post-timeskip he doesn't start with it but a lot of the times it's his second move.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Isn't cutting Ivan Zero Musashi? Either way if there is a future where Musashi wins she will just choose that future.

This is servant Musashi, something that many for some reason doon't understand it's that servant Musashi it's after Shimosa. If wanted I can fin the scan in which is said that after she died she become a servant.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

This is speed equalized, and Zoro doesn't always start with Shishi Sonson.

musashi's fatehax will work first because it is a thought based ability

Speed amps cannot be equalized. We have already established that she doesn't lead with fatehax. Zoro gets serious and resorts to use Shishi sonson (we've already established that too).

 

[Excaliburhuman]

This is servant Musashi, something that many for some reason doon't understand it's that servant Musashi it's after Shimosa. If wanted I can fin the scan in which is said that after she died she become a servant.

She needed to use Zero to cut his trunk is what I meant

 

[SnookB]

This is speed equalized, and Zoro doesn't always start with Shishi Sonson.

musashi's fatehax will work first because it is a thought based ability

Didn't Zoro resort right to Shishi Sonson when fighting the dragon in PH? And vs Hody? There are a few instances where Zoro starts with it. Against Kuma as well.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I still don't understand Zoro can fight thought based fate hax? man..

Musashi's fate hax is to cut all possibilities and make her win in the end, but what can Zoro do when his dura negs and speed amp are countered?

also precog or the like is useless because the type 4 of acausality cannot be predicted because it has independent causality

 

[SnookB]

I still don't understand Zoro can fight thought based fate hax? man..

Musashi's fate hax is to cut all possibilities and make her win in the end, but what can Zoro do when his dura negs and speed amp are countered?

also precog or the like is useless because the type 4 of causality cannot be predicted because it has independent causality

Because the Fate based hax guarantee she'll land on the best outcome, not that her best outcome will always be her winning. We've already established how his Kenbunshoku works differently against her causality.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This is speed equalized, and Zoro doesn't always start with Shishi Sonson.

musashi's fatehax will work first because it is a thought based ability

Speed equalized can't stop the speed amp, otherwise Luck from Black Clover would'nt blitz anything

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Her battle continuation EX is on her profile and says she pretends to be dead, uses tricks and escapes to fight another day. Nothing implies she can do what Cu and Heracles can do. Not when it's specified to work entirely differently.

A is the highest normal rank, but there is an exception to the rule with the EX Rank.[2] It represents something that falls outside of the numerical ranking scale, a value that cannot be quantified under the normal system because it is in a league of its own, powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless.[3]

There is no why that she can only pretend be dead with EX Rank, in any case if she need to do that type of things it's more because she can't win with her fate hax against the opponent.

She needed to use Zero to cut his trunk is what I meant

I guess? It's Isshana Daitenshou it's just part of her NP after all.

 

[SnookB]

There is no why that she can only pretend be dead with EX Rank, in any case if she need to do that type of things it's more because she can't win with her fate hax against the opponent.

There is every reason why she shouldn't be able to, and the one obvious one is the fact that HER VERY DESCRIPTION SAYS OTHERWISE. Assuming she can do that also assumes she can survive without a head like Shuten Douji, which is flat out wrong because not every battle continuation is made the same, it's dependant on the user's history and how resilient they are, or how much of a survivalist they can be. Musashi being the latter.

 

[ShivaShakti]

So Musashi currently possesses Instantaneous Fate Hax, Causality Hax, Soul and Conceptual damage upon striking, Invulnerability that Zoro very likely does not bypass, but even then...

Surely the first three aspects alone listed above makes any chances of Zoro winning unrealistic?

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Because the Fate based hax guarantee she'll land on the best outcome, not that her best outcome will always be her winning. We've already established how his Kenbunshoku works differently against her causality.

kenbunshoku never shown against type 4 acausality, no headcanon dude

Type 4 Acausality not only doesn't exist in the future, but the past, the present as well, because it's a different causal system