Sans's soul Lifting strenght

[Phoenks]

This is just soul manipulation.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

This is just soul manipulation.

How would it work with slamming someone down when that someone is trying to stay up?

 

[Phoenks]

How would it work with slamming someone down when that someone is trying to stay up?

Stronger Soul Manipulation than what that particular soul can resist.

 

[ShionAH]

Stronger Soul Manipulation than what that particular soul can resist.

The OP is trying to argue Sans TK works on the Soul which would mean it ignores LS and Weight just like how Sans attacks working on the Soul ignores durability.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Stronger Soul Manipulation than what that particular soul can resist.

The point of this thread came up in a DB thread. So Sans is slamming someone down through slamming down their soul. That someone is trying to stay afloat using their body. Which force would win out? As far as I understand Sans doesn't rip the soul out so that's out of the way. So to move someone down you just apply a downward force. I personally can't understand why that would mean disregarding the other characters strenght and being able to slam everyone though slamming their soul while their body can just stay apply a stronger upward force and cancel it.

 

[Armorchompy]

If the body moves with the soul the soul moves with the body, there's no reason to assume it's a one-way thing.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If the body moves with the soul the soul moves with the body, there's no reason to assume it's a one-way thing.

So for all intents and purposes it's a discussion between if Sans telekinesis can move the opponent more than the opponent can move up?

 

[Phoenks]

The OP is trying to argue Sans TK works on the Soul which would mean it ignores LS and Weight just like how Sans attacks working on the Soul ignores durability.

It's soul manipulation which is hax. Hax by default already ignores statistics. I don't see a reason to add it. It's just another application of his soul manipulation.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It's soul manipulation which is hax. Hax by default already ignores statistics. I don't see a reason to add it.

So Sans can slam someone down despite how strong the other person is? If so how? I have never tried to argue that attacks affecting the soul wouldn't work on someone stronger. This however is just a special form of Tk and should be treated as such. It doesn't matter that Sans is using the soul to grab someone because he is in the end pushing them using that. The other character's body however is providing a force which allows him to remain flying. Why would Sans grabbing the soul overpower the other Character's body trying to counter the force applied? Why would pushing someone using the soul automatically mean that you win over whatever stats the character's body has. Why would soul automatically win over the body?

 

[ShionAH]

It's soul manipulation which is hax. Hax by default already ignores statistics. I don't see a reason to add it. It's just another application of his soul manipulation.

Most people disagree with this which is what Op is trying to add to erase the misconception.

 

[Phoenks]

Most people disagree with this which is what Op is trying to add to erase the misconception.

Who is most people? They would need to revise the hax page.

Hax

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant. The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ShionAH]

Who is most people?

Look at the thread and in most sans threads this whole "Ignores LS with hax" is ignored.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It's quite literally Tk. How he does that doesn't matter in the end. Providing he doesn't stop a character from acting against the force applied.

 

[Phoenks]

Well then send the people on those threads the hax page which already goes over this.

Look at the thread and in most sans threads this whole "Ignores LS with hax" is ignored..

 

[ShionAH]

Well then send the people on those threads the hax page which already goes over this.

We all know how stubborn people are.

Personally I am fine with adding a small note ON the profile so people believe it more.

 

[Armorchompy]

Are we operating under the assumption that Sans' TK also moves around the body, or just the soul?

 

[ShionAH]

Are we operating under the assumption that Sans' TK also moves around the body, or just the soul?

I think the general agreement for the OP is Sans moves the soul and in response the body moves too, just like how when sans attacks the soul the body also gets "hurt"

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Are we operating under the assumption that Sans' TK also moves around the body, or just the soul?

From what I understood he would move the soul and the body also would. I mean if he only moves the soul isn't he just ripping it out as well? Which would kill anyways.

 

[Armorchompy]

Then no I absolutely disagree. If moving the soul = moving the body, then moving the body = moving the soul, which means that just by moving the other person should be able to counter Sans' hax. There's no reason to assume it works one way only

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Then no I absolutely disagree. If moving the soul = moving the body, then moving the body = moving the soul, which means that just by moving the other person should be able to counter Sans' hax. There's no reason to assume it works one way only

Isn't that basically just two opposite forces being applied? Like two people pulling? I assume it would work similar to every other TK just the way of applying the force is different. Result would be the same.

Like if he was ripping the soul I would be okay with it. But he is just indirectly moving the body.

 

[Phoenks]

Then no I absolutely disagree. If moving the soul = moving the body, then moving the body = moving the soul, which means that just by moving the other person should be able to counter Sans' hax. There's no reason to assume it works one way only

While I agree that moving the body would move the soul, that method requires physical lifting strength. Doing it the other way around ignores having to overpower physical resistance, and is just soul manipulation hax which ignores statistics.

Lifting strength won't counter this.

Assuming it does is like saying physical durability prevents soul damage, which isn't true.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Then no I absolutely disagree. If moving the soul = moving the body, then moving the body = moving the soul, which means that just by moving the other person should be able to counter Sans' hax. There's no reason to assume it works one way only

Besides as I said, Muffet and Mettaton proved the the SOUL modes indeed involve the physical body as well.

Also because we never truly see the whole "but the soul gets out of the body" while seeing both Soul and Body, which makes all of this even more questionable.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I mean killing someone eventually is portrayed as making their souls go to the other world so you are affecting them in a way.

However I feel you are comparing different stuff. Maybe that's where the problem is.

How would moving the soul being done? You are applying force to move it. In the end it's not exactly hax. I mean sure you are pulling something which is not physical but you are also pulling something physical through moving the body and this involving it in some way. In the end you are applying a force somewhere no other way around it. Moving the body should counter that force. Why would moving the soul automatically negate moving the body against it as impossible? Especially when you don't sever their connection.

You are saying moving the soul would automatically move the body without any basis on it while the argument that moving them is just a matter of comparing forces makes much more sense.

 

[Armorchompy]

While I agree that moving the body would move the soul, that method requires physical lifting strength. Doing it the other way around ignores having to overpower physical resistance, and is just soul manipulation hax which ignores statistics.

Lifting strength won't counter this.

Assuming it does is like saying physical durability prevents soul damage, which isn't true.

That is definitely not the same thing, no. You are imparting "hax" force on the soul yourself when you move, by Undertale's mechanics, there's no reason to assume that Sans' own automatically overrides this given that it's just seemingly doing things the other way around. There is no such thing for the physical durability example, it's completely unrelated.

 

[Armorchompy]

To speak it in a different matter everyone who can move their soul would be fully resistant to TK.

?????

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

?????

Are we saying that moving the soul makes you unaffected by forces moving the body? So if Sans would move their soul up then someone applying Tk on sans would find it impossible to move him. He could still squash him of course but he could not move him as the argument here is that any force applied to the soul would automatically mean that no force applied to the body could afffect it's position.

Also the argument was kinda bad or wrongly phrased so I removed it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Are we saying that moving the soul makes you unaffected by forces moving the body? So if Sans would move their soul up then someone applying Tk on sans would find it impossible to move him. He could still squash him of course but he could not move him as the argument here is that any force applied to the soul would automatically mean that no force applied to the body could afffect it's position.

Ah ok. Well I don't think that's the case.

 

[Phoenks]

That is definitely not the same thing, no. You are imparting "hax" force on the soul yourself when you move, by Undertale's mechanics, there's no reason to assume that Sans' own automatically overrides this.

By Undertale mechanics moving the soul moves the body. Which means soul manipulation that moves the soul moves the body regardless of the body's physical statistics. To assume that the body's physical characteristics prevent soul manipulation would be going against the nature of how the hax is displayed in UT, as well as how soul hax in general is treated on this wiki.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Ah ok. Well I don't think that's the case.

So you agree that it's just a different way of applying a force onto someone? Like classic Tk but just changing the thing affected without changing the result?

Could you people tag someone here to talk about it? Who preferable knows about Undertale.

To assume that the body's physical characteristics prevent soul manipulation would be going against the nature of how the hax is displayed in UT, as well as how soul hax in general is treated on this wiki.

It's not preventing the soul moving just that since they are one thing moving the body would counter the moving. It doesn't negate that the soul is affected. It just counters that force by moving the body.

 

[StrymULTRA]

By Undertale mechanics moving the soul moves the body.

What.

 

[Phoenks]

What.

Can you talk to me on discord

 

[Armorchompy]

By Undertale mechanics moving the soul moves the body. Which means soul manipulation that moves the soul moves the body regardless of the body's physical statistics. To assume that the body's physical characteristics prevent soul manipulation would be going against the nature of how the hax is displayed in UT, as well as how soul hax in general is treated on this wiki.

No, absolutely not. By Undertale mechanics moving the body also moves the soul, so it goes both ways. There's absolutely no reason to assume one always overrides the other.

 

[Phoenks]

No, absolutely not. By Undertale mechanics moving the body also moves the soul, so it goes both ways.

Moving the body is different than moving the soul directly, which is my point.

When you move the body, you are using physical stats.

When you move the soul, you are using hax.

In the latter method, physical stats are meaningless, but the same result is achieved.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I absolutely disagree with the SOUL controlling the body as it was stated absolutely nowhere that it's the case.

 

[Armorchompy]

Moving the body is different than moving the soul directly, which is my point.

When you move the body, you are using physical stats.

When you move the soul, you are using hax.

In the latter method, physical stats are meaningless, but the same result is achieved.

We can go over this all forever but no, absolutely not. If the two are tethered to one another that means they both exert force onto the other when they move. The body has "NPI" relating to its own soul if you want to look at it that way. There's absolutely no reason to think that one is superior to the other and just waving around the word "hax" like it's some catch-all term that means the portrayal has to follow your perception of things isn't going to change that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

You are using hax to target the soul. Nothing says that hax can allow you to slam someone down irrelevant of their body. The affecting the soul part is hax yes. Moving it however while it is hax also has a physical component since you again move the body.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides it'd be an immense NLF to assume Sans can overpower people who can lift black holes or tectonic plates just because "lol SOUL stuff", especially when in UT the SOUL is treated as being strong as the body and viceversa.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The body moves as a byproduct of the SOUL moving, Sans isn't pushing Godzilla's weight when he does so to their SOUL

 

[Armorchompy]

The body moves as a byproduct of the SOUL moving, Sans isn't pushing Godzilla's weight when he does so to their SOUL

The soul is anchored to the body and viceversa. He does need to overpower Godzilla's weight if they're anchored to one another.

Hell there's literally a precedent for effects weighing down the soul being counterable with physical strength, thanks to the blue soul mode

 

[StrymULTRA]

The body moves as a byproduct of the SOUL moving, Sans isn't pushing Godzilla's weight when he does so to their SOUL

I love how y'all keep saying that as if it's common knowledge when it's stated nowhere.