Sanae's "Guest Stars" Calculation.

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

A recent calculation of Sanae's "Guest Stars" Spell Card provided by the Naruto Forums' user, Ampchu, was recently published, and I decided that it may be of some interest over here.

- http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/ampchu-fails-at-calculations-5-guest-stars.36072/

 

[Andykhang]

Hm... First, how exactly did you "raise" the luminousity of the star,RL-wise? Like how could you get a star to be brighten? Cause depending on the way, this feat would be less impressive than it calculated.

Edit: Just read the description. Turn out it's name for comet, novae or supernovae...

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

I'm not an experient in any form of calculation, but this was brought up about luminousity feats being less impressive than originally perceived, although this gathered support throughout the calcs discussion, so I'm not entirely sure, just brought this over for information's sake. I believe that was also discussed in the comments, with some minor revisions.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Edit: Just read the description. Turn out it's name for comet, novae or supernovae...

Does this change anything in particular? I'd also appreciate feedback on the matter.

 

[DontTalk]

Without looking at the calc method itself for now:

For one thing given that the original SC described it as "Stars radiate light in all directions while Sanae creates light and shrapnel." describing her Danmaku more than the real life phenomenon, I wonder if this isn't one of the cases were it should be viewed as methaphorical description of the Spellcards looks.

That aside I seriously doubt that Sanae would brighten the stars by making them radiate brighter dozen of lightyears away. If she actually brightens up stars she probably increases their visible light on earth though the miracle or in other words she just increases the magnitude of the part of the light that comes close to her.

(Given the "Something about the gamma ray blah blah blah" comment I wonder if she uses gamma correction or something... xp (I know that has nothing to do with each other))

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

So, no go then? If so, this is extremely disappointing, especially considering Ampchu was pretty frustrated with calcs.

 

[DontTalk]

To the priorly mentioned reasons comes that the "Guest Stars" the spellcard references in title are basically any temporarily visible light that ancient Chinese astronomers thought of as stars, but are explicitely not at the places usually visible ones are.

So most likely Sanae outrights creates new lightsources for this.

So all in all I would say no to it.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Ampchu, from various conversations found on their profile, also displayed much reluctance to the calculation, considering Touhou's extreme ambiguity. Very disappointed, I wanted by Planet-level 2hus, but life goes on.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Planetary Touhou is already legit.

You have Miko, you have Marisa, you have Suika and the Heaven and Hell comparison. There's no need to give this one a glance considering how there are more reliable feats. Although Galaxy Sanae, which was the previous version of that, would've been quite fine.

And considering the sheer ridiculousness and power of Sanae and everyone else in Gensokyo.... It would take a miracle to do that. And guess who especializes in miracles? Just a thought.

And actually, the only reluctance Ampchu had on that was the Galaxy level form it previously had. After all I saw him work on it.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Thanks for the feedback. I was already aware that Touhou had planetary and star-level characters, I merely meant on mid-tiers possessing planet-level feats. I had a sneaking suspicion Touhou would receive a massive upgrade after the absurdity of LoLK. What exactly was Sanae galaxy level feat, I heard it applied to Eirin (and, by extension, other Lunarians, and above) recently?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Nonononono.

The reason why Ampchu was so reluctant with that calc above? Was because it was Galaxy and it was a massive upgrade and the reason why people argued was because a wrong method was done. When he redid it, he ended up with Planetary. Although I don't see anyone denying it.

And you must be referring to Eirin's galaxy in a pot skill.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

No, I'm aware of Galaxy in a Pot, and I remember now that Ampchu's original results lead to low-end Galaxy level, with AquaGrizzly also highly unconvinced. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you need any assistance on the massive Touhou feat thread I'll offer a hand.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Then yeah. But even then Eirin is already high enough but I don't think Galaxy in a Pot was explored too deeply.

You have skype or something? I can keep up better there.

And if anything it looks like Aqua didn't believe it in his first post, and then immediately tried to clarify what the other person would do, aka defend the feat.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Unfortunately, no Skype. But I don't believe Galaxy in a Pot equates to galaxy level, as there simply isn't any evidence, if I remember. Been awhile since I played IN.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Darn. Will have to find another way. Anyway, also a word from Ampchu himself:


"[2016-10-20, 2:20:49 PM] Ampchu: Reading the peer discussion, I think the earlier comments were discussing that my previous method was not legit

[2016-10-20, 2:21:01 PM] Ampchu: To which I agree, that is why I redid it

[2016-10-20, 2:21:05 PM] Carlos Madriga: They think the comments on OBD was not agreeing with you ya

[2016-10-20, 2:21:11 PM] Carlos Madriga: But somehow they still misunderstood

[2016-10-20, 2:21:32 PM] Ampchu: Someone needs to clear it up with them over there then

[2016-10-20, 2:21:54 PM] Ampchu: I'm not registering a VBW account though :catprone"

Naturally that's not my real name. Regardless, if you guys want a screenshot then I'll happily post em.


Also considering Sanae faced the lunarians and gave them a good fight.... Even if they were going easy that's still noteworthy.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Edit - and another

""I think people misunderstood the context of the calc. What was being argued was illegitimate happens to be the previous version of the luminosity calc that ended up several megaFOE. I agree that the original method is wrong and fellow calcers corrected me, one of them even willing to show me the right way to do it. The zetatons of TNT revision is the correct one as I and peer review confirmed it as a legit mid-end.""

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Wasn't her fighting against the cast of TH15 was that she was under the influence of one of Eirin's Ultramarine Orb Elixers? If so, that adds a lot of potency to Eirin's drug creation.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Gimoire of Marisa predates LoLK. There are no buffs granted whatsoever by Eirin on this calc.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Wasn't implying that. I'm well aware of the chronology of ZUN's work. I was implying that Eirin's drugs are extremely versatile, from creating the Hourai Elixir to the Ultramarine Orb Elixir, basically, I wasn't stating much that isn't obvious.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Ah whoops. Misread your statement. Anyway yes, but I don't see it as being too big of a buff on Sanae. Or maybe it is. But leaning on no since there wasn't anything stand out and if anything it turned Sanae mortal. I'll check around it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@DT Pretty sure that Spell Cards are just representation of what truly happens. Marisa's statement is more reliable than what we see in-game.

That aside, I'm not sure how we should deal with it. It does say that Sanae increases the brightness of the stars, implying it's affecting the stars and not just the light. But eh.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It takes a miracle to do that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well it's a weak ass miracle, she uses much stronger ones to attack directly.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

I had always been curious as to just how destructive and outrageous Sanae's miracles can get, especially the ones that requires days of preparation. She has to make the miracle proportional to the unlikelihood of the event, so anything that requires several days of preparation should be vastly more powerful than the ones she simply shows in her regular duels.

EDIT: Marisa does comment, however, that the spell is "pretty plain", indictating that she isn't overly impressed with the card, so I, too, am uncertain as to how to go about this.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Several days of prep with magic might be days. Although if she uses a miracle maybe she shortens the time gap?

I think she thinks it's plain because of the factor that Marisa uses star based attacks and is more dazzling than just making the stars glow out ther. I mean the design of her attacks are just overall more colorful and seeing how Marisa goes for style in a danmaku battle... That's probably why she's not too impressed if the feat is grand.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

"Danmaku's all about power." - Marisa Kirisame.

Would it be possible that Sanae has higher Attack Potency with prep, considering her more powerful Miracles take preparations, or has her current Attack Potency already taken that into account?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well this attack isn't prep heavy, but I think she would be higher with stronger ones

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Wasn't referencing this one in particular, just that she does have stronger ones that haven't neccessarily been shown that requires extensive preparations and is likely stronger than any we've seen.

Should we add "(possibly) higher with prep", or something along those lines?

 

[Andykhang]

"Danmaku's all about power." - Marisa Kirisame.

Would it be possible that Sanae has higher Attack Potency with prep, considering her more powerful Miracles take preparations, or has her current Attack Potency already taken that into account?

Though it's right somewhat, I don't think it mean what you think. Power in here isn't simply quantifiable thing like force of Newton or Degree of heat. It's the spetacle of power, the show of strength, and the sense of dread, anything that would forever imprint a person's perception of your might. It's basically these girl's version of a peacock dance, where you could make it stronger than you actually is.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

"Danmaku's all about power." - Marisa Kirisame.

Would it be possible that Sanae has higher Attack Potency with prep, considering her more powerful Miracles take preparations, or has her current Attack Potency already taken that into account?

Though it's right somewhat, I don't think it mean what you think. Power in here isn't simply quantifiable thing like force of Newton or Degree of heat. It's the spetacle of power, the show of strength, and the sense of dread, anything that would forever imprint a person's perception of your might. It's basically these girl's version of a peacock dance, where you could make it stronger than you actually is.

I'm very well aware of the implications of the Spell Card rules, Andy, I've been a fan for many, many years.

 

[Andykhang]

Then... sorry, I guess?

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

Then... sorry, I guess?

It's alright, it's just a misunderstanding.

 

[DontTalk]

@DT Pretty sure that Spell Cards are just representation of what truly happens. Marisa's statement is more reliable than what we see in-game.
That aside, I'm not sure how we should deal with it. It does say that Sanae increases the brightness of the stars, implying it's affecting the stars and not just the light. But eh.

It references guest stars aka fake stars though and increasing the brightness of the stars can be just increasing the bit of light you actually see in everyday use of such a statement. Additionally remember this given from Marisas perspective who doesn't understand what happens, but just describes her impression. (See the Note Marisa gives, pointing out that she didn't listen to Sanaes explanation and that it has something to do with gamma rays)

And technically it isn't more reliable than what happens in game at all. We know from various illustrations that Danamaku battles are indeed bullet spamming, looking more or less like in the game. The possibility that things that are not visible on screen also happen is possible, though.

The point I made is an entirely different one though. It is that ZUN uses Methapors, symbols, does jokes / puns in the descriptions of spellcards and occasionally describes things from an unscientific standpoint. In other words the question arises if the stars meant here are not metaphorical to begin with, like for example Utsuhos "Stars" in "orbits" are.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk seems to make sense.

 

[Royalty_of_House_Scarlet]

After DontTalk's explanation on the origin of the term "Guest Stars", I'm in agreement with DontTalk. Character statements are extremely ambiguous and not exactly the most reliable information source in Touhou (Yukari stating Rinno not knowing half of what he's talking about), and ZUN's descriptions are rather cryptic and poorly defined as to what exactly he means by what he's stating (eg. Flandre's ability to destroy ANYTHING and EVERYTHING not actually meaning EXACTLY what it says it's doing; Yuugi's and Kanako's ability being poorly defined, ect, ect).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Each one contains a screenshot, the name in both English and Japanese and a few unofficial comments from our writers."

The spell card description you use to try to debunk this is not official (While Grimoire of Marisa IS canon).

Beside,"Zun writes in Metaphor and stuff" applies more to spell cards description made by WoG than statement from Marisa. Someone known to be very direct and straightforward. So it's more accurate to thrust a real life description from Marisa than the origin of the name, or a vague statement from ZUN. I don't see Marisa being metaphorical over describing a spell card.Her train of thought are often limited to "STARS! LIGHTS!"

Notably, when a Spell Card IS a metaphor, she says it clearly. "But there aren't any seas in Gensokyo, so this is just an image."

Also, in-game Danmaku includes Rocks breaking into magical bullets, bullets being only shot horizontally and others. They aren't 100% accurate to what truly happens. I would take a direct RL description from a straightforward character over often visual gameplay.