Spirit Sign "Massive Touhou Upgrades"

[Theglassman12]

Disagree with the Immunity negation for soul hax since that just contradicts them lacking a soul, if they have a spirit to absorb to begin with. Neutral on the rest.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well shit.

Seems we're in CRT purgatory, then.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

BUMP SIGN "ETERNAL SUFFERING"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

It hurts to see the CRT pretty much grind to a halt. Hopefully we hear more opinions later down the line.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Being a Touhou supporter on VSBW is pain

 

[Shmooply]

Simple solution, stop being a supporter.
if only it were that easy

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This verse will only die when I do >:V

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Malomtek]

Yukari's ability being as powerful as it is has nothing to do with whether or not it can bypass immunity. We can't just say "oh she's a reality warper, of course she can ignore iimmunity" because that ignores what immunity is supposed to be. It's a clear NLF on your part to claim as such. So yes, it is just as contradictory regardless of Yukari's powerset, and hell, she's far from the only character on this wiki who can bypass type 5; These sorts of illogical interactions are quite common, given we apparently have nearly 1,000 characters who can negate type 5. Yukari is just an example of how such contradictions are common even within Touhou.

The only reason I even hypothesized that was to give some "leeway" to Yukari in regards to these things, due to the abstract nature of her powerset.

Being able to negate immortality is different from taking soul stuff from the soulless. One is simply negating a power, or in this case a bodily trait. The other is taking something from someone that they explicitly do not have. The latter is far more self-contradictory than the former.

I would again direct you to Sanae's statement, which is pretty clear about spirit power dropping from enemies being canon in-universe.

I never considered that as anything more than a minor fourth-wall breaking in relation to a game mechanic, in the same vein as when a Mario RPG character mentions the control scheme or what specific stat boost a new item

There is a massive difference between what Tenshi did and what regular spirit users can accomplish, though. What Tenshi did took place across a low multiversal distance at minimun (unlike the 1v1 aspect of regular spirit users), was causing localized weather changes across all of Gensokyo, and of course that isn't even getting into the second aspect of the incident where she caused an earthquake that destroyed the Hakurei Shrine, and gave the possibility of an earthquake that would destroy Gensokyo. So, it's really a matter of scope, but the point is that it's still an acknowledgement of spirit in-universe.

Or think of it this way: Weather manipulation is quite common in Touhou, but Remilia's scarlet mist was a different case given it blanketed all of Gensokyo and caused sickness to whoever breathed it in, thus making it an incident. It's not a perfect 1-to-1 comparison, but it shares the same core idea of Tenshi's thing, where common abilities dialed up to 11 can become incidents (another example being Eirin's illusion in IN, which affected all of Gensokyo and was noticed by every single youkai, unlike the smaller scale illusions commonly used by other characters).

Okay, but, here's the rub though: where any of the things Tenshi was absorbing spiritual energy from giving of "P" items or whatever you might call them? Are the "P" items ever treated as anything "real" outside of gameplay or fourth-wall breaking gameplay-mechanic explanations?

The water absorption and transmutation in 17.5 is never actually explained like you're claiming it is, though. It is given just as much acknowledgement (or even less acknowledgement, taking Sanae into account again) as spirit power. They're both powers that don't have clear definitions or explanations in-universe, and I'm saying it's absurd to think one is fine but the other is unusable.

It's pretty hard to see alternative interpretations of a magic bullet magically transforming into water, beyond it either being the cause of the bullet-generator, or the bullet-evader, with slightly more evidence leaning towards the bullet-evaders doing it. However, as @Yemma670 has shown, it's very easy to see alternative interpretations of this "spirit power" stuff in ways that make them "unreal" relative to the actual story.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The only reason I even hypothesized that was to give some "leeway" to Yukari in regards to these things, due to the abstract nature of her powerset.

Being able to negate immortality is different from taking soul stuff from the soulless. One is simply negating a power, or in this case a bodily trait. The other is taking something from someone that they explicitly do not have. The latter is far more self-contradictory than the former.

No, not really. They're both affecting something which does not exist, thus making the target immune to the ability being used; Yukari is manipulating the concept of death on someone who lacks said concept entirely, the WBaWC is absorbing spirit from someone who lacks spirit entirely. The fine details differ a bit but the core idea of "affecting a thing despite said thing not existing" remains the same.

I never considered that as anything more than a minor fourth-wall breaking in relation to a game mechanic, in the same vein as when a Mario RPG character mentions the control scheme or what specific stat boost a new item

Spirit's canonicity goes beyond Sanae's statement. It is still considered a power source by numerous other characters, like Marisa, Yuyuko, or Aya. None of those statements are really referring to spirit in a way that could be interpreted as a 4th wall break or something similar. There's really no reason to treat it as game mechanics when characters repeatedly reference it within the confines of their own world.

Okay, but, here's the rub though: where any of the things Tenshi was absorbing spiritual energy from giving of "P" items or whatever you might call them? Are the "P" items ever treated as anything "real" outside of gameplay or fourth-wall breaking gameplay-mechanic explanations?

The P items specifically? No, not really. But why does the appearance matter? Spirit is treated as a real thing in-verse regardless of what it looks like.

It's pretty hard to see alternative interpretations of a magic bullet magically transforming into water, beyond it either being the cause of the bullet-generator, or the bullet-evader, with slightly more evidence leaning towards the bullet-evaders doing it. However, as @Yemma670 has shown, it's very easy to see alternative interpretations of this "spirit power" stuff in ways that make them "unreal" relative to the actual story.

And just what are these other interpretations? Given the repeated confirmation of spirit's existence as a power source in-universe, we can't exactly say it's game mechanics. So, what else is there?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah, just realized that Spirit may technically be a UES given that it directly correlates with a physical stat (stamina) and can be used to amp physical attacks just as it does magical ones (Sakuya's knives and Reimu's sealing needles, for example).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Malomtek]

No, not really. They're both affecting something which does not exist, thus making the target immune to the ability being used; Yukari is manipulating the concept of death on someone who lacks said concept entirely, the WBaWC is absorbing spirit from someone who lacks spirit entirely. The fine details differ a bit but the core idea of "affecting a thing despite said thing not existing" remains the same.

False equivalence. Immortality =/= "lacking the concept of death entirely", and even bypassing Type 5 immortality can be interpreted as putting the concept of "death" inside a being. In contrast to absorbing soul stuff from the soulless, which is an incoherency no matter how you slice it. What, do they put the concept of "soul" inside a being before extracting it?

Spirit's canonicity goes beyond Sanae's statement. It is still considered a power source by numerous other characters, like Marisa, Yuyuko, or Aya. None of those statements are really referring to spirit in a way that could be interpreted as a 4th wall break or something similar. There's really no reason to treat it as game mechanics when characters repeatedly reference it within the confines of their own world.

The P items specifically? No, not really. But why does the appearance matter? Spirit is treated as a real thing in-verse regardless of what it looks like.

And just what are these other interpretations? Given the repeated confirmation of spirit's existence as a power source in-universe, we can't exactly say it's game mechanics. So, what else is there?

The mere fact that spiritual energy does exist in 2hu doesn't mean that they extract spirit stuff from their enemies with basic danmaku attacks.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

False equivalence. Immortality =/= "lacking the concept of death entirely", and even bypassing Type 5 immortality can be interpreted as putting the concept of "death" inside a being. In contrast to absorbing soul stuff from the soulless, which is an incoherency no matter how you slice it. What, do they put the concept of "soul" inside a being before extracting it?

What?? That's literally what type 5 is, and Mokou blatantly states that she doesn't have a concept of death anymore. And the 'bestowing a concept' theory is exactly that; A theory. We don't actually know how Yukari bypasses type 5. In fact, since the text describes it as 'crossing the boundary of life and death', that seems to strongly imply that this would be manipulating a pre-existing boundary rather than creating a new one entirely, which is what you seem to be proposing.

The mere fact that spiritual energy does exist in 2hu doesn't mean that they extract spirit stuff from their enemies with basic danmaku attacks.

I mean, I posted multiple scans in the OP showing that that's the case. I never said the in-universe mentions of it are where the abilities come from, statements like that were just used to confirm its canonicity and define what spirit even is.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

I'm about a week away from just going '**** it' and applying this, we have one staff agreement and majority non-staff agreement.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Bump

I'm about a week away from just going '**** it' and applying this, we have one staff agreement and majority non-staff agreement.

Honestly, IMO, I think you have enough to apply the stuff that was approved already, so there is no more need to BUMP this thread.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Honestly, IMO, I think you have enough to apply the stuff that was approved already, so there is no more need to BUMP this thread.

Best to ask the mod first who replied if it can be applied.so they can see if its not controversial enough to be applied with just 1mod input

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

True. The immunity negation stuff can be saved for later. I'll ask Mav for confirmation and hopefully we'll have an answer soon.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@Elizhaa Would you be willing to evaluate the OP’s proposals?

 

[Malomtek]

What?? That's literally what type 5 is, and Mokou blatantly states that she doesn't have a concept of death anymore. And the 'bestowing a concept' theory is exactly that; A theory. We don't actually know how Yukari bypasses type 5. In fact, since the text describes it as 'crossing the boundary of life and death', that seems to strongly imply that this would be manipulating a pre-existing boundary rather than creating a new one entirely, which is what you seem to be proposing.

"Existing unbound by conventional life and death" =/= "lacking a concept of death entirely" (and on it's own, the latter is rather vague as is).

Fujiwara no Mokou saying she she's "devoid of death" doesn't mean she lacks a concept of death entirely, whatever that might mean or entail. Giving that she immediately follows it up with some slam poetry about how "to be devoid of death is to be devoid of life", I'm going to guess it's not entirely literal anyway.

And how does any of this explain why characters can extract soul stuff from the explicitly soulless, again?