Samus Aran vs Hunter

[Mr. Bambu]

It's NLF to say that something built from biological matter doesn't get nulled when presented with an ability that nullifies biological/magical ice. Technology would be something. But if it has biological properties? You're the one making insane statements here, friend. And... what? Ice abilities exist in MH just fine. Ice that freezes enormous enemies solid. Instantly. It's actually the reason for their 8-B calc.

I need some proof of you're kilometers wide beams then, that seems like an insane amount of not-truth. And... all speed is equalized. So yes.

The strawman is nonexistant. I am not arguing points you are not making. The fact that you have continuously ignored speed equal standards and called any statement point that out in any way "strawman" is worrying.

That's true. But her precog is not as great as you have tried to make it seem. And... No. Dragon Element does directly link to one's intelligence, but it is not manipulating the mind itself. Weapons with dragon element do assault the mind but elder seal is a not-so-much. And... what? "It's biotech".

"lawl ecks dee sike"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Because if it's Biotech, it requires something that can null both at the same time to null; that's why. It's not really biology or technology; it's its own term biotech. Has all the strengths share by both, but none of the exclusive weaknesses. I know Ice abilities exist, but not on a level that's literally a hair away from Absolute Zero; that's the same thing as assuming a massively above baseline 3-A character on a verse where the best feat/statement is only 5-B. Additionally, Samus's Ice Beam being fused with Wave Beam means it phases through all defense mechanisms and freezes Hunter from the inside out. Hunter can't resist having his molecules frozen on the inside at temperatures on that level.

Her Beams are consistently shown to be that wide in the canon manga.

I did not ignore speed equalized standards at all. Just that there are gaps and distances that I elaborated upon. I didn't say everything you said was strawman, just the points I listed and what Lancelot listed.

I misinterpreted what I heard on other threads yes. But it's still more broken than what you realized. Spider Sense being the best comparison is really fallacious, and Samus's level of it is still Astronomically above Peter's. And even then, Precognition is usually a huge step up in intelligence/tactics advantage. It's how Spider Man was able to last long against beings so much stronger or faster than he is; besides PIS but off topic. Samus can pull stuff like that off but better.

And yes, Biotech. An invention of the Chozo meant to be a composite biology and technology. It is neither biology nor technology, but at the same time it is both. If that sounds confusing, I don't blame you, but it strongly clarifies how underplayed Samus tends to be. While it's not without weaknesses, it is without weaknesses biology or technology would have due to being biology or technology respectively. Meaning Elderseal wouldn't apply; something powerful enough to seal biology, technology, and supernatural might work perhaps.

Also, I want to apologize if I went over my head in the debate; happens to all of us. But I refuse to give in and let Samus lose, I have strong willpower. Especially when tired from a long day at work.

 

[SomebodyData]

• Sees

Still not gonna vote for either side, but to straighten out some facts:

- Samus' beam weapons usually don't have that high aoe. If she does go for that route, she's gonna hit the ground to freeze everything over.

- Samus' ice beam isn't biolgical / technological, her 6-C suit is, but the ice beam itself is apparently data (Metroid Manga shows her actually absorbing data and transforming it into her bombs and missiles, same thing in Fusion.

- Samus' tech isn't holy. The Legendary Suit arguably is, but is more of a manifestation of her will power. This ain't said suit tho.

- Precog works more like a weaker ultra instinct than knowing everything he is gonna do. Though I guess technically her Scan Visor would do that anyways.

- Not sure what Dragon Element does exactly, but it sounds like mental assaults based on untellect right? Doesn't sound like something that wouldn't be cover by general mind manip resistance.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Noooot really. It would require something that can disrupt either one. You're ******* up half of the components (or at least some pivotal part of it), it isn't going to be working properly. Coincidentally, if you wanted to be SUPER TECHNICAL, pretty much all ice abilities would be calculated at far exceeding Absolute Zero, with any ability able to instantly freeze things being something absurdly higher, but that seems largely ignored so while off the wiki Hunter's ice would be far superior to Absolute Zero, on the wiki without actual statements that's a super no-go

Show it to me. Show me where her beams are literally kilometers wide. Coz I smell horse droppings.

Riiiight.

Proof? It seems like what you were saying she could do was absolutely debunked but I've seen nothing of what her precog is good for aside from knowing things a bit before they happen. I.e., Spiderman.

Not confusing. Just technobabble. But my point stands. If you're messing up one huge aspect of a thing, that's going to mess it up wholly. Show me scans of the biotech saying "no u" to Power Null and that's fine, but without that, this seems like a big case of "I think it should be thus and ergo it is". You're NLFing right after accusing me of NLFing. Fact is, Elderseal negates biological and magical ice. Meanwhile, this has biological components. Your argument against that is "well of course it won't work it has other components"- which would be all well and good if those components were all of it. But they aren't. They're just a piece. And a piece of the machine is being nullified, rendering it, if not useless, then less than what it was built to be.

Fair enough.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@SD No one's making you vote, but thanks for clarifications. Glassman will back me up when done with finals though.

But oh yeah, It's digital data that effects material; Hunter's not nulling that.

That's what I meant regarding Ultra Instinct, but Bambu knows very little about Dragon Ball iirc. Plus, Ultra Instinct is actually one of the most downplayed levels of Instinctive Reaction as there's actually more elaborate details. Such as detecting omnidirectional patterns.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dragon Element =/= Elderseal, by the by. Just want that to be known, they are two separate abilities that seem to be getting confused.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

ALSO. SD, could you please argue for Samus? No offense to DDM (and I mean this sincerely) but I need to know what she actually has so I can consider what to talk about, I'm literally debating against things that don't exist in this tier at this point. Or, at least, provide her most relevant abilities.

And... coincidentally, I know a bit. I personally couldn't be bothered to touch Dragon Ball with a fifty foot pole, but a good amount of friends talk about it due to participation in Xenoverse competitions and stuff.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sure I guess, but I would have to start arguing in a day or two, I'm running overtime in my job for that final crunch before Christmas.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Read SD's post above. Actually, all of Samus' weapons are digital data. It's still immaterial in a sense and fits the category of something Hunter doesn't null.

Also, forgot to mention. Couldn't Samus just freeze the oxygen atmosphere and prevent Hunter from even breathing?

Edit: Yeah, I work hard a lot too; especially during the Holiday season.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Read SD's post above. Actually, all of Samus' weapons are digital data. It's still immaterial in a sense and fits the category of something Hunter doesn't null.

Also, forgot to mention. Couldn't Samus just freeze the oxygen atmosphere and prevent Hunter from even breathing?

That won't work. There's skill that makes Hunter no longer need to breathe.

@Bam Can you evaluate this plz plz plz plz plz

 

[Mr. Bambu]

didn't know that was a skill MH has weird stuff

AND NOW PEOPLE PESTER ME IN THREADS WELL HOT DAMN yeah man sure gimme a second no problem

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Changed to Relativistic KE. New result is there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

right on boyo

eval incoming

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

We're derailing so I give my vote to Hunter for Bambu's reason as well.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

This is literally what I said in the post you're referring to, it just seems like nobody actually reads what I type.

Thanks for echoing my sentiment, because apparently all I said turned into "Oh well they're monsters so they don't count for experience'', which very much feels like a strawman throwing me in with a different lot unrelated here when all I implied was a difference in the nature of the learned skills and experience. Even my last line is echoing what you said and asking how does that translate to your interpretation of my words. Still, sorry if it read as such as it wasn't my intent.

But regardless, I still place my vote on Samus side for now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Coincidentally if her suit is biological in this key

And Hunter's Elderseal affects biological and magical abilities

How badly does that affect Samus

 

[SomebodyData]

@Mr.Bambu I dunno, its decribed as essentially being her second skin. Does the Elderseal do something to stuff like that?

That said, not sure if getting rid of the suit would really help, she has manifested some of the abilities (Such as the beams and her energy tanks) without it. Though it would get rid if stuff like speed booster (Unless we count Other M, but that is kinda weird in how treats stuff)

@Shiro freezing the oxygen would result in him also getting frozen. Not that she would do something like that (or could) but freezing the air is kinda dangerous.

What she would do depends on the situation, she generally avoids destroying the local ecosystem if her video games are anything to go by, but would if she has to (Literally most of her greatest feats in Samus and Joey have her in someway destroying the enviroment).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It prevents use of abilities held by Elder Dragons so one would say yes.

And... fair. Her abilities outside the suit would still be valid, but those that solely rely on the suit would be pretty not-good'd.

And yeah I figured freezing all oxygen would be a pretty insane idea to Samus. At least, without prior knowledge and a reason to actually do that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure MH would suffocate and die if the air got frozen; but yeah, she wouldn't quite lead with that, but she could as a last resort.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If Shiro's got it right though, Hunter has an ability against that. I wouldn't stake much value to it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bambu unless the MH has dealt with enemies with precog, and precog that can help them dodge nigh-danmaku levels of attacks while being able to blast her opponents with a charge shot in mid intervals between dodges, I doubt that MH is gonna hit Samus easily.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Monster Hunter has also dealt with nigh-danmaku levels of attacks, I believe it was also Fatalis who was argued for Danmaku.

2. She clearly can be hit. Her precog is help, yes, I don't doubt that. But to the point that it is impossible to be hit? No.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's still far more likely for Samus to hit him than it is for him to hit her. No one said it was impossible for her to be hit, just that it's highly unlikely. Also, looks like the votes are an even split 3 to 3.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

With beam attacks that are uncontrollable once shot. If you have that km wide thing (still waiting for that), then potentially jsut via covering the whole area. But if not, then I don't believe straight lines outdo swinging a weapon as well as having kinsects to attack all at once.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bambu Can I see proof of that please? Unless you have proof that MH can hit someone that can dodge for a long period of time against far more chaotic attacks, it's very unlikely that he can hit her, AKA, she'll get the first shot in before MH can do anything.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Proof of what claim? That she can be hit lol? Or that I don't believe straight easily dodgeable beams are going to take the win against weapons that can be manipulated mid-trajectory and have kinsects to also attack with?

 

[Theglassman12]

Proof that Hunter has fought something with danmaku level capability and has dodged the shots

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Besides saying Samus's Massive AoE spammed projectiles are easy to dodge is about as accurate as saying it's easy for "A camel to go through the eye of a needle". Again, she's also got a shitton of homing missiles to use along side her arm cannons. Also, Samus' whip > Hunter's swords, case and point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Proof that Hunter has fought something with danmaku level capability and has dodged the shots

NIGH-Danmaku. And I can look into it, if I can find the thread where the possibility of Danmaku was discussed. I believe the attack in particular was summoning several meteors down on the battlefield, though I don't recall which fight it was.

AoE is also equalized. Said this... so many times. Finally... how is Samus' whip better than, and I'm gonna correct you here, literally all of the Hunter's weapons, most notable being the Kinsect Glaive?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Simple, Grapple Beam has longer range and is designed to disarm the Hunter by stealing the Kinect Glaive. Also, forgot this thread was suppose to revise speed equalization.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

> Kinect Glaive


Inside of this box is a deadly weapon, handle with care

And... great? Move and not be hit by grapple, or of course... just pull back? Like I don't get the point of this one tbh. In your eyes, Samus is doing like 80,000 shots and stealing the Hunter's stuff while they're sorta just sitting there.
Hunter is... absurdly agile with a Kinsect Glaive. Not to mention the Kinsects themselves will be also attacking while Samus is hypothetically doing this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Samus is arguably more agile and flexible, also, the grapple Beam can lock on to the target, so if he moves, so will it. If she needs to and Hunter gets close enough, she will take it.

Also, as a calc I did just for fun, Samus' reaction time is 0.000000625 seconds given her initial Mach 4704 speed. Which means she fires at 1600000 rounds per second. Obviously that's calc stacking, but hey, she really can rapid fire giant blasts super fast. She can also run and shoot at the same time Ultra Instinct style.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...

mentioning speed is a thing I'm just gonna ignore from here on out

okay? okay.

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't think nigh-danmaku was ever shown in Metroid, or anythibg close to that

 

[Schnee_One]

Okay what's with the conflicting arguments for Samus?

One side says Nigh-Danmaku, the other says it's not.

Then we hear that the enemies Samus fights are apparently much smarter because they build MFTL+ ships (BS on multiple levels)

-Her Precog is apparently not as good and neither is her AoE.

Can metroid supporters come to a consensus? Please?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Data nearly every single boss fight in Other M had attacks that were close to danmaku attacks since they fired across the area in an attempt to overwhelm the opponent.

 

[SomebodyData]

None of those attacks were remotely close to danmaku.

 

[Theglassman12]

They resemble Danmaku attacks when they're fired across the battlefield in large amounts of shots.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think nigh-danmaku was ever shown in Metroid, or anything close to that

Beam Burst from Samus Returns says hi. Not the best example considering that was High 6-A Samus, but considering how blitzing fast Samus is on all keys + unlimited ammo, the only reason not to argue against she's doesn't have danmaku or good AoE is limitations due to game mechanics; just like Sonic's top speed being 10 m/s. Also, Samus used danmaku like spams in a lot of 2D Metroid games also.

@Schnee Again, building Massively FTL+ ships was not the only reason behind the intelligence advantage; additionally, I already made a my bad on that so please drop that part. Samus also single handedly took on the entire Space Pirate Army and Zebes wildlife. She snuck around Space Pirate ship in her Zero Suit, passed the Chozo Ruins Test and was trained by the Chozo God of War himself in her Zero Suit. And a shitton of other stuff. Which is still a lot more than what was said about Hunters.

Precognition is another thing. Yes, Interstellar wide is my bad. But foresight on that level not being combat applicable sounds like BS IMO; perhaps the combat limited on that range, but knowing something is about to happen from far away mid battle sounds important. But still, the parts that easily are combat applicable are still being downplayed. Ultra Instinct in general does get downplayed a lot on this site and in general: it's still far above Spider Sense, which even basic precognition is often heavily downplayed in general. If you pit a character who's predictable against a character who's not predictable, the latter holds the advantage. Case and Point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I didn't say it wasn't combat applicable. I said that it wasn't as good as people were making it out to be. That it wasn't as good as you were making it out to be, to be specific. Also, why do you keep saying "Case and Point"? This isn't an example of a predictable character, if anything Monster Hunter is the furthest thing from a predictable character ever considering their odd fighting forms.