Samus Aran vs Hunter

[Mr. Bambu]

Both of them are hand to hand combat geniuses. Hunter has fought ancient creatures with intelligences far surpassing humans (Elder Dragons) and won. So. Moot point. And, I forgot to mention (or more likely that I did mention it), beams can be avoided because good lord this is a repetitive statement.

 

[Schnee_One]

I actually have one point I should make, and I'll keep my vote if it isn't true

Die Hunter need to hit Samus herself to destroy her soul?

Because she's surrounded by armor (******* Duh)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The weapons can sorta just go through armor by cutting it

I'd also point out that Hunter is immune to ice from enemies stronger than itself but I'd assume this will result in some comment of "but it's colder ice you see".

 

[Schnee_One]

I can't tell if this is a natural ability of the Hunters weapons or if you're just saying he can cut through it.

Because Samus has buffs for her power armor worth noting

That said that resistance being not ABZ means Ice Beam is out

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it's going to be extremely difficult dodge beams that are tens of kilometers wide that phase through all barriers and freeze everything is phases through from the inside out simultaneously. Especially while she's practically moonwalking backwards at great speeds. Also, pretty Chozo are much smarter than everything Hunter dealt with. Also, that gap still isn't even close to what Samus has. Monster hunter doesn't have anything even close to reaching Absolute Zero temperatures which Samus's Ice Beam is literally just a hair away from that. It's still colder than solid oxygen. Also still need to find the scan from Samus & Joey that proves the Ice Beam can freeze atoms.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hunter can get through the heavy armor of creatures like Nergigante. then you get annoying things like spikyballboye in rotten vale who regenerate their armor spikes

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I can't tell if this is a natural ability of the Hunters weapons or if you're just saying he can cut through it.
Because Samus has buffs for her power armor worth noting

That said that resistance being not ABZ means Ice Beam is out

Abilities of Hunter bypass armors no doubt about that. Vaal Hazak's armor made out of corpses and Kulve Taroth's Gold armor is practically useless. Outer shells are useless even though the armor isn't broken in any way.

 

[Schnee_One]

I schnee

Vote

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I schnee
Vote

Caddyshack - Well? We're Waiting

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"But it's colder ice" seems a bit dismissive. Yes, is colder ice. If he hasn't resisted things on that level why should we expect his ice resistance to go that low? There's also still the issue of tools getting freezed in mid air, the fact the blasts are so wide "but projectiles in equal speed" doesn't really mean anything. Also, still the issue of Grapple Beam.

I don't understand the intelligence argument. They are powerful creatures, yes, but powerful creatures that many times don't have big survival issues with their immense, inherent power. Big intelligence doesn't translate to pure fighting skill. Even more so, experience with these kinds of enemies doesn't translate to "all around combat experience or skill". A big difference to note is that Samus has battled a lot, among those actual clones of herself and humanoid hunters, among beasts and enemies big and small and quick and powerful like the Hunter's prey, but the Hunter doesn't have that same experience with humanoid targets, or targets that are actually both immensely smart and immensely skilled fighting. Unless of course I missed something that could point to their intelligence being exploited like that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes. Well spotted. That's why I said the point is probably moot. That was the point. To prevent that fact from being discussed when it was moot. So. Moving on now.

Now then, let's discuss your lack of experience with Monster Hunter. Your argument here is that "they're strong ergo they don't have troubles surviving". While it is true they ruthlessly outclass typical monsters of the verse (Rathalos, Barroth, etc), Elder Dragons aren't rare and do actually fight each other. Meaning they do actually fight threats to themselves. Furthermore. "Oh well they're monsters so they don't count for experience" is among the weakest and most worn out arguments against the Monster Hunter's experience I've ever seen. It'd be equivalent to me saying Samus' experience with mostly alien creatures doesn't equate to experience foighting the Monster Hunter. MH has never fought a being like Samus, this is true. Samus, however, has not fought the Monster Hunter. The fact that they have fought beings of comparable strength and beaten them through skill should be enough. However, preformed notions of "d'oh, they've only fought animals", disregarding all actual fact about Monster Hunter, is so common it hurts.

My vote for Monster Hunter stands.

 

[Schnee_One]

Hold up right here

"Among those actual clones of herself and humanoid hunters"

This is 6C Samus, she hasn't encountered them by this point

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

She fought one in her 7-C key actually, coughs coughs Ruins Test. Still, I'm pretty sure the Chozo have way more in depth lore of being more intelligent than anything in Monster Hunter. We're talking about creatures who can build Massively FTL+ combat ships from scratch within hours at most and likely in minutes single handedly; or at least Samus did that. But it was the Chozo who trained her body and mind since she was only 3. Not to mention the same Chozo were like overseers of the universe. Statements about Chozo lore also mention things like they "perfected" combat on levels far above nearly every other race in the universe; making the Galactic Federation look fodder in comparison.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Coincidentally,

• Perfect is exaggeration and is used 100% of the time to mean "by comparison".

• Having good technology is not a combat feat, nor is engineering.

• The only feat there is being trained by good fighters since birth.

 

[SomebodyData]

@DDM Hours to make MFTL+ ships never happened. Not sure where that came from.

As for the overseers of the universe part, that was the Tallon Chozo, she never met them.

That said, @Mr.Bambu most of the Chozo themselves have had at the minumum a few hundred through low thousands of years of combat experience (Due to their longetivity) according to Mother Brain, who in turn also confirms that Samus is the best out of the Chozo. Grey Voice (Chozo that gave Samus his DNA) also refers to her as superior in that regard.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And that experience is great, but MH has already dealt with thousands of years of experience (Fatalis) and beat him. So I don't see the point.

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean... the Chozo as an entire species (hence why they stopped reproducing) generally had combat within themselves and had raided the majority of the galaxy in those thousands of years. Has Fatalis done something similar, like fought intelligence-wise comparable beings continuely during those centuries or milenia of living?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There are other Fatalis and they're all the same rating, yes.

 

[Schnee_One]

I feel like this needs saying Why are thousands of years of expirience meaningful? It's the people you fought, not how many people you have fought over the course of your life.

Also, saying that building an FTL ship makes you more Davy in combat is logic that makes zero Sense

It's the equivalent of saying Tony Stark is a combat savy genius because he manages to build dozens of state of the art suits, even though by his own accord he really isn't and he builds suits to compensate.

What's next? A geniuses scientist can beat an average boxer?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I do agree that time spent is inconsequential to the experience in that time. MH is fine in both, though.

also MCU tony stark did beat up Happy so nyeh

 

[Schnee_One]

Not like it matters since she never even encountered them and they were never able to do that. Which makes me more suspicious of the validity of Samus's reasons

 

[SomebodyData]

And so is Metroid, more in this case because their species spanned the galaxy and they were a fighting focused race. @Mr. Bambu

@Schnee Ignoring the fact that she was trained by them, you do know her entire backstory is focused on her encountering them right? Or that she faced several Chozo ghosts at a time when it came to Metroid Prime. Or that she alone beat the Ruins Test, when the Chozo and Pirates could not.

 

[Schnee_One]

As for the overseers of the universe part, that was the Tallon Chozo, she never met them

I said Chozo when I meant to say Tallon, oops

 

[SomebodyData]

Well she did combat them, if you're still on about that.

 

[Schnee_One]

?

I was quoting you on what you said to me regarding the Tallon she didn't encounter, hence the bolded words

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I meant to put "Perfected combat" in quotes, and I didn't mean that literally, but the fact is, Chozo are far more intelligent that any human being can comprehend. Chozo are still grandmasters of nearly every form of combat notable; hand to hand, piloting, marksmanship, you name it.

Also, that's what another user once mentioned a while back, about building ships. But still, Samus and Metroid have far more intelligence feats. Hunter doesn't have anything mention on his profile that would exceed Gifted, where as Samus is Genius; just a side note. Though, I'm starting to think Extraordinary Genius might be appropriate for Samus.

And yes, I know it was the Tallon Chozo that where the universal overseers, but actually; I recall it was the Tallon Chozo that traded technologies with the Alimbics. I know Samus didn't meet them at this point in time, but Samus still, the Zebes Chozo where regarded as excellent combat geniuses across the galaxy. Samus also still fought the Ghosts of Tallon Chozo not too long afterwards. Being old also isn't exactly an intelligence feat either, but the Chozo still taught new forms of combat and many other things. They were also the creators of the Metroids and Mother Brain.

Also, that was a strawman @Schnee. I know scientific intelligence and combat intelligence are different, but the fact is, Samus excels at both. Also, precognition combined with intelligence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence without precognition. She defeated the Ruins Test, which far trumps every intelligence feat shown in Monster Hunter. Samus' range advantage is still a doozy over Hunter's, and it's not going to help the Hunter when Samus steals all the soul destroying weapons. Speed equalization doesn't help the massive AoE, versatility, flexibility, precognition, ect advantage Samus has over Hunter.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So Chozo are Batmen. Great. This means little to my actual points.

A gifted person can match a genius person. This intelligence advantage also doesn't actually equate to much due to the small gap.

This is all context stuff so I'm assuming someone else is going to take on this chunk of wordage.

MH does good at both, too. And that wasn't really a strawman. I mean it was sorta unrelated but it was more of a general statement about threads. Also, we've been over her precog and it isn't so astounding as you made it seem. The range means, once again, literally nothing since the Hunter literally just has to move slightly left against a projectile that is the same speed as them. So projectiles are the most worthless thing in the world. And... actually, it does. The AOE is also speed equalized, the versatility is moot as Hunter ALSO has versatility, not sure what you mean about flexibility unless you mean she is bendy, precog is aforementioned just spidey senses and not astounding, and Hunter still can literally one-shot through Soul hax. Not to mention their other advantages such as "haha can't see me", paralyzation, and so on.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Missing the point; I meant the statement about Scientist being better fighter than a boxer was strawman. But that's off topic, because Samus is like smarter than Batman. I know Gifted can match Genius, but that's not my point either. Samus still has a better intelligence scaling chain; she's smarter than the Ruins Test and Mother Brain, who are smarter than the Zebes Chozo, who are much smarter than the Space Pirates, who are much smarter than the Galactic Federation, who are far more scientifically and combatedly more advanced than real world humans. Hunter is just dealt with Dragons who are smarter than humans.

Also, I know speed is equalized, but you keep implying that Hunter is faster. Hunter won't have enough room to move to the left or right; the AoE is already initially pretty big once fired from the arm canon. Especially when fired all over the place left and right. Hunter would need to move at least 5 kilometers to the left or right before the projectile travels 20 meters. So he has 250 times less time to react than what he needs.

Not to mention Samus would also be willing to walk backwards at great speed while firing at the same speed Hunter could run forward; meaning he likely never actually reach Samus even when running forward at full speed. And that's completely ignoring the spammed beams; he would need to slow down a lot to move left or right; which already addressed he won't be able to dodge.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So what you're saying is

she's genius

versus a gifted. Not a huge gap there. And... no. There are dragons who are just smarter than humans. Fatalis is a bit like a god-figure on that end as, IIRC, he created elder dragons. The same elder dragons that are above human civilization. But downplay, I guess.

No, I don't. I'm saying the projectiles have to move in a straight line whereas Hunter just has to move slightly to either direction to not get blasted to hell. You keep implying Hunter just... stands there. And what do you mean room? The sahara desert has plenty of room to dodge something that moves at the same speed as you. And... also incorrect, the blast of that AOE is also equalized. Like I said, projectiles makes this sorta useless.

Moving diagonally is a thing, actually- moving forward and to a side. Additionally. With Kinsect Glaive, Hunter has plenty of ways of overwhelming. Not to mention I doubt Samus just walks backwards forever when nothing ever hits. But whatever you say, I suppose.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Schnee I see that, and I was saying she did meet and beat the Tallon Chozo (They are the Chozo Ghosts)

 

[Schnee_One]

I know

I was quoting you on that.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

snip

Pardon me for not seeing the moot bit, but what you say after is a very big strawman of my point. They are very smart monsters, yes. I don't see where I ever disagreed with this. But at what point did all of this intelligence was shown to be projected on their combat ability? It would be asinine to imply a super smart predator wouldn't be effective in combat, but it feels just as asinine to think this equates them to something, or someone, both smart in an intellectual way and smart in a combative way, and that same skill and intelligence being clearly remarked. Chozo's actually have statements of combat ability and not just being the technological masters of the world, while most I see and hear of Fatalis, the pinnacle of Elder Dragons, is in regards to it's awesome might making it unto a God. And they would obviously confront other beasts, like Fatalis, who still only have an statement of intelligence and no idea of how that's relative to their combat skill. I just don't see how that'd equate it. I am not even speaking for a massive gap, merely that Samus has the distinctive advantage here.

Even worse, when did I ever even mouth off anything to the tune of "they are monsters so experience doesn't matter"? Samus has similar experience with all kind of animals and monsters like the Hunter, and experience with powerful and skilled humanoid targets. Samus has never fought anyone like the Hunter, Hunter has never fought anyone like Samus, goes both ways. How does this turn what I said into "big monsters don't matter"?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know speed is equalized and that it also equalizes speed of the projectiles. But no, AoE or range is Not equalized at all. Once fired, the projectiles Samus fires are already tens of kilometers wide from the instant they're fired. So walking diagonally won't help much either. In fact, A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for diagonal speeds. The projectiles would be moving at C speed, and even if he's moving at C speed diagonally, he'd only be moving A speed left or right and B speed back; both of which are slower than what the projectile would be moving forward.

Still Samus still has far more intelligence lore and feats than Monster Hunter. She's smarter than Mother Brain; pretty much a living Supercomputer that conquered the Galaxy. Who are also smarter than the Chozo, a race of godlike Alien Birds, who are one of the smartest races in the Galaxy, far exceeding Space Pirates, other Zebesians or humans. Not to mention the humans in Metroid are way more advanced than the ones in Monster Hunter.

Again, Hunter is far less likely to even touch Samus than Samus is to land a hit on Hunter given the unlimited ammo, AoE, spamming, range, ect. Samus still has Grapple Beam as a back up, which Hunter doesn't really have much counter to Ice Beam that covers the battle field. Also, the fact that this is on Earth means Samus has airborne advantage. She can jump insanely high and control her landing much more if needed. Also, the missiles as mentioned are homing attacks that Hunter can't quite outrun forever. Plus if he's busy attempting to run from the missiles, that would live him wide open for a direct hit from Ice Beam.

Also, Samus would be willing to run laps around the entire planet if she needs too. Also, Speed amplifications and rage power still apply in speed equalization. Meaning Speedbooster and Shinespark can still enhance Samus to give her the advantage in that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@DDM The effects of the AoE must move, yes? That is equalized. And... yes, it will, really just don't be where the beam is. Speed equal makes this relatively easy. Seeing as how it has to cross those kilometers first.

Given that ammo isn't an issue for hunter either, AOE as said above, spamming means very little, and the range only gives Hunter more space to dodge with. Like none of what you said actually does much to allow Samus to hurt Hunter. And unless Ice Beam is the absolute zero thing you talked about, they resist ice. And she can jump high, great, that's really great. What a win condition. "jumps". And... Hunter doesn't really need to, just destroy them. With the Kinsect or any of his (her?) own guns would deal with it pretty handily. Like I don't think you understand that everything is equalized.

That's true. I will give you that. It doesn't affect her shots, but she could become somewhat faster. This is the first legitimate point I've heard in favor of Samus.

@Lance Strawman? No. Correction? Yes. And... well. Their combat ability is better shown in comparison to other Hunters. Hunters who have been honing the art of hunting for a very, very, long time- our dear friend the Hunter outclasses all of them. Probably not as high as Samus, but the skill difference I don't see being huge since both are "we're the best at what we do" (#WolverineRipoffReee). And yes. I know. Samus has never fought anyone like Hunter much like Hunter has never fought anyone like Samus. This is literally what I said in the post you're referring to, it just seems like nobody actually reads what I type.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Again, the beams are already tens of kilometers when fired from the arm cannon. Again, he isn't crossing those kilometers before the beam reaches him within 20 meters. Still, tilting and turning the direction Hunter faces will widen the gap faster than Hunter can run, since Samus can easily turn her arm a few inches faster than Hunter can run entire kilometers.

Resisting Ice is again 100% irrelevant. The face is, Samus' Ice Beam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> colder than any level of ice Hutner resisted. There's not proof that the ice Hunter resisted is even negative 50 degrees celsius let alone 200 degrees below zero. Ice Beam is just a hair away from Absolute Zero. And it nulls Ice Resistance. Even creatures who regularly survive in environments that are 1 degrees Kelvin have 0 resistance to Ice Beam. Therefore, one shot is all Samus needs.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They have to travel. Tens of kilometers. On speed equal. He has to move. At the same speed as this straight line. Except to either direction. A beam is absurdly easy to counter. You are greatly underestimating how big of a deal Speed Equal is.

Both need one shot, then. Both are highly skilled fighters. Both are very intelligent, especially in the area of combat. One can soul-hax, the other can freeeeze. The fact that Hunter Power-Nulls ice I will assume is not the case as this is T E C H N O L O G Y and I will assume this isn't equalized reasonably. So this ultimately comes down to who hits who first. In Hunter's defense, we have a large amount of abilities that make this easy for them- paralysis, the Ghillie Mantle, etc. For Samus, she has speed amp and I guess acrobatics. Or something. Plus her attacks are 99% beams, as in, incredibly easy to aim-dodge.

My vote 100% still goes for Hunter.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ignoring the lock on missiles, the fact that those beams still have a massive AoE. It's doesn't need to expand; it's already the giant size when first created. Actually, AssaltWaffle wanted to revise speed equalization a while back; it only equalizes combat speed and reaction, not movement speed or attack speed of weapons.

Also, Samus' Power Suit and Weapons aren't actually technology, but Biotech. A Unique substance that's more like biology rather than technology. But still, arguing the word technology is irrelevant. Because it doesn't change the fact that Ice Beam is far above everything shown in MH. Samus dealt with Paralysis users, so that's nothing on Samus. It's not possible to aim dodge homing missiles and giant beams that phase through everything at the same time.

Samus is also an excellent Martial Artist skilled at hand to hand combat, evasion, whips, ect. Grapple Beam is like a long overextending EMR Whip that Samus can use to steal all his Soul destroying weapons so he can't use them against Samus. Speed amps also make Samus much harder to even touch given it requires melee range. Samus can also drop an unlimited supply of bombs all over the battlefield I forgot to mention.

All in all, I still see Samus winning this 100%.

Note: Never assume, because when one Assumes, the make an ASS out of U and ME.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

AoE. Travels. The. Radius. At. Equalized. Speed. AOE is a non-issue. And yes, it does. I've heard repeatedly that it was discussed a bit back and projectiles are equalized.

Oh. Then they get power nulled. Biological ice hax is subject to Hunter's Elderseal. Literally even being near a Dragon Pod when it goes up (which wouldn't be too hard all things considered) then gg no ice for you.

Equalized explosions are funny but equalized nonetheless.

All in all, I see you disregarding speed equalization repeatedly because it doesn't fit well. I see Hunter winning. Nothing you said has been conclusive evidence to the opposite, only of the lack of belief of what "Speed Equalization" means.

EDIT: I'm an ass anyways.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The wideness doesn't travel, it's just already there. That's like assuming a sword grows when it doesn't. Ice Beam doesn't get nulled; it's classic NLF to assume so. Ice Beam has neither the weaknesses of biology or technology. Power Nullification in general needs specific details; can't be assumed to null something where the level doesn't exist in the MH universe.

It's not speed equalized explosion, it's literally the beams themselves that are that wide once fired. The strait forward travel is equalized, but the waves are already giant from the moment they're fired. Explosions are equalized yes, but initial size is not speed at all; therefore it isn't equalized.

I'm not disregarding anything at all. I know full well what speed equalization is, and it is rude to assume someone who's been on this site for a long time to not know something already well known. I'm just pointing what's speed and what isn't. AssaltWaffle's proposal was a long time ago and didn't quite go through, but I could remind him. But I needed to debunk the strawman being used against us.

Precognition is also something Samus has, that she can resist being nulled. She knows everything Hunter's going to do while Hunter doesn't know a thing Samus can do. Also, Dragon Element is based on mind manipulation which Samus resists, so that's not nulling anything. Ice Beam isn't biological or technological, it's supernatural actually. All of Samus' power ups are holy relics.

Edit: To be fair, everyone's an ass.