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There's next to no fragments whatsoever when Seiya punched the ground during Cassios' fight.
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Saint Seiya revision
- Thread starter Kepekley23
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- pegasus seiya saint seiya
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TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
I actually agree with this
I also agree with Matt and Crateris
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Except,you know,the Range of some Cosmo users?AstralKing7 said:
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Yea and do u know the range of that Seiya in that arc???
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Chapter 1 Seiya is still a Noob who only just awakened his cosmo, but he progressively gets better as the series progresses
Were talking Bronze Saints who don't have full control over their power when compared to Silver Saints, or Gold Saints (Whom techincally have mastery over it)
So naturally the range of Silver Saints, and Gold Saints is >
Misty for example casually telekentically atomized a hole in the ground. Shiryu on the other hand using telekensis only pulvierized a few boulders that kiki had.
Were talking Bronze Saints who don't have full control over their power when compared to Silver Saints, or Gold Saints (Whom techincally have mastery over it)
So naturally the range of Silver Saints, and Gold Saints is >
Misty for example casually telekentically atomized a hole in the ground. Shiryu on the other hand using telekensis only pulvierized a few boulders that kiki had.
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Atomization values for that crater leads to 8-B to 8-A results, like I have mentioned multiple times.Matthew Schroeder said:
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This will change chapter 1 seiya, but what are your plans for the keys after chapter 1? Such as silver saint arc when they become comparable to other silver saints and defeat themKepekley23 said:
There is also a Argol who is rated at Multi-Continent tier because of a calc and Shiryu defeats him
Early on in the Sanctuaray arc of the Gold Saint Civil war. Shun was able to shatter a planet with his Chains pre-7th sense
There is also the Saint Seiya Omega crew who can scale off their own, and very different calcs instead of saying "Should be comparable to chapter 1 seiya)
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I have no plans for Saint Seiya as a verse. I am just contesting Chapter 1 Seiya's crater feat, specifically. Nothing else. He might as well scale to Universal feats for all I know.
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-Contesting a feat which is the base for other feats
Are you serious?
Are you serious?
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well if the feat is invalid then it's invalid.
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And with destruction at the subatomic level.Kepekley23 said:
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It's Atomic Annihilation as I explained in my scans several times over.Kepekley23 said:
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I am actually fine with the conclusion being that Seiya doesn't annihilate 100% of those atoms but I do think he annihilated at least a non-insignificant portion.AstralKing7 said:
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I just want to highlight that Kurumada (the author) does not understand anything about physics and therefore does not know how to draw it.
Let me explain: Hyoga's Aurora Execution is an attack that the saint shots against the enemy and freezes him to the absolute 0. Here only for the fact that the attack moves from Hyoga to the target it is assumed that it retains kinetic energy, although it is at absolute 0.
So when you say that there are fragments in the crater of chapter 1, I think it is something really silly
Let me explain: Hyoga's Aurora Execution is an attack that the saint shots against the enemy and freezes him to the absolute 0. Here only for the fact that the attack moves from Hyoga to the target it is assumed that it retains kinetic energy, although it is at absolute 0.
So when you say that there are fragments in the crater of chapter 1, I think it is something really silly
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I mean...he has kinda of a point doens't he?
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There seems to be a massive misconception going on about how atoms even fundamentally work in this thread, and on the wiki at large, that need to be fixed as soon as possible.
Everytime someone destroys something at all, they are shattering atoms. As Kep mentioned, the energy required to shatter an atom, on any level, is so ridiculously, pathetically small that it hurts; only 200 MEV are necessary to disrupt an atomic nucleus. That is thousands upon thousands of times lower than the energy of even the after-effects of a punch. Whenever you fragment a rock, you're destroying millions of atoms on the subatomic level.
That means you ca use a measly pulverization value for that crater, and it would still fit the "atomic destruction!!" statements, just fine. Unless it is explicitly stated that the entirety of the crater was destroyed on an atomic level, you can't assume anything else.
Everytime someone destroys something at all, they are shattering atoms. As Kep mentioned, the energy required to shatter an atom, on any level, is so ridiculously, pathetically small that it hurts; only 200 MEV are necessary to disrupt an atomic nucleus. That is thousands upon thousands of times lower than the energy of even the after-effects of a punch. Whenever you fragment a rock, you're destroying millions of atoms on the subatomic level.
That means you ca use a measly pulverization value for that crater, and it would still fit the "atomic destruction!!" statements, just fine. Unless it is explicitly stated that the entirety of the crater was destroyed on an atomic level, you can't assume anything else.
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Matthews case has a lot of good argumentation, however there is no evidence that counters Keps explicit points made in his OP. Theres no way to dismiss the debris existing, and unless we ignore wiki guidelines on vaporization, the calc is incorrect.
Further, Keps calculation/altered rating for the feat is pretty unassailable unless we presume some oddities of the Saint Seiya authors intentions, which is a slippery road
Further, Keps calculation/altered rating for the feat is pretty unassailable unless we presume some oddities of the Saint Seiya authors intentions, which is a slippery road
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This guy has the right idea.PhantomMistress said:
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Counter Point
Those debris might have come from the side
There are a lot of rocks there
Those debris might have come from the side
There are a lot of rocks there
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Since I'll be getting off my computer soon, I'll not be able to comment for a while.
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Xul pretty much hit the nail on this thread, to be entirely honest.
Matt also hasn't responded to my calc demonstrating that Kep's estimate wasn't off by very much, still waiting on that.
Matt also hasn't responded to my calc demonstrating that Kep's estimate wasn't off by very much, still waiting on that.
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Don't have to because the method of the calculation focused on atomic annihilation is completely different.Dargoo Faust said:
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It's what's listed on our Calculations page, what are you talking about? You haven't really explained yourself very well on this point, just to add.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Don't have to because the method of the calculation focused on atomic annihilation is completely different.
Literally what?
It's the exact same calculation.
Literally what?
It's the exact same calculation.
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OK, I'm throwing my hat into the ring.
From what we're TOLD CONSISTENTLY, it's supposed to be atomic destruction
Marin actually uses the word "Hakai" in Japanese to refer to what they're doing to the atoms, which means destroy.
Every statement on how their attacks work is that they're meant to be destroying atoms
The problem of their still being "Debris" seems to be just artistic license, as not only is Seiya repeatedly stating to be destroying the atoms, but later, we see other people explaining that something EXPLICTLY had their "Atoms destroyed" but their being bits and pieces left.
From what we're TOLD CONSISTENTLY, it's supposed to be atomic destruction
Marin actually uses the word "Hakai" in Japanese to refer to what they're doing to the atoms, which means destroy.
Every statement on how their attacks work is that they're meant to be destroying atoms
The problem of their still being "Debris" seems to be just artistic license, as not only is Seiya repeatedly stating to be destroying the atoms, but later, we see other people explaining that something EXPLICTLY had their "Atoms destroyed" but their being bits and pieces left.
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BOOM Done No more No need for moreAerrowStorm1 said:
Pure.Artistic .License
That's all it needs
Thank you all for coming
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"[Cosmo]
Refers to cosmic energy that exists in the body. Saints have tremendous power by exploding the microcosm inside the body, releasing fists at a speed comparable to the speed of sound, and destroying matter at the atomic level." [1] Translated from Japanese into English.
but i don't mind the downgrade tbh but im concerned about the scaling chain
Refers to cosmic energy that exists in the body. Saints have tremendous power by exploding the microcosm inside the body, releasing fists at a speed comparable to the speed of sound, and destroying matter at the atomic level." [1] Translated from Japanese into English.
but i don't mind the downgrade tbh but im concerned about the scaling chain
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Example, in the Black Saint Arc, Seiya is explictly stated to havebroken the Phoenix Cloth "to ash" but we see large chunks of it remaining when it shatters.
Same for Ikki himself. He is hit with the Galaxian Explosio, explictly stated to be "obliterated without a trace", "drifting around as space dust" and "disintegrated" but in the explosion itself, he's seen breaking and fragmenting.
It's just the way Masami Kurumada depicts Atomic Disintegration
Same for Ikki himself. He is hit with the Galaxian Explosio, explictly stated to be "obliterated without a trace", "drifting around as space dust" and "disintegrated" but in the explosion itself, he's seen breaking and fragmenting.
It's just the way Masami Kurumada depicts Atomic Disintegration
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Agreeing with Kep here, that crater surely doesn't look like it was atomized. If they keep saying that things were atomized, but what we actually see contradicts it, it just means that the statements are bs.
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i don't think Kep is aruging for atomizing hax to go away. he is arguing for a re-calc because its in simpler terms because im not smart... because its not right..?
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The biggest problem with Kurumada's writing is that we should take it as literal as possible. I think that when Kurumada talks "destroy matter also destroys atoms" it's just a logical line, because if we destroy a piece of matter, there will be a certain % of the atoms of that matter that will have been destroyed.
And this often occurs in saint seiya, for example in what I gave earlier about the poseidon pillar. Seiya and his friends needed to raise their cosmos to the maximum to crush the atoms of the pillar.
But when seiya flies toward the pillar, and hits it, the entire area of the pillar is not atomized, it only destroys the atoms of a small area, and destabilized the rest of the entire structure of the pillar.
And this often occurs in saint seiya, for example in what I gave earlier about the poseidon pillar. Seiya and his friends needed to raise their cosmos to the maximum to crush the atoms of the pillar.
But when seiya flies toward the pillar, and hits it, the entire area of the pillar is not atomized, it only destroys the atoms of a small area, and destabilized the rest of the entire structure of the pillar.
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Good lord these newer arguments in favor of complete atomic destruction are terrible.
> From what we're TOLD CONSISTENTLY, it's supposed to be atomic Destruction
This is completely meaningless without new scans that support this conclusion. The given scans in the OP and by other users do not even suggest total atomic destruction of any of the given objects, it just suggests that the characters are "targeting atoms" and "destroying atoms" when it gives no clue to how much of the object's atoms are destroyed.
You're told consistently statements that don't actually support your conclusion. Give new statements that actually give merit to this claim if you want to push this idea, please and thank you.
> Marin actually uses the word "Hakai" in Japanese to refer to what they're doing to the atoms, which means destroy.
Okay, and?
The large hadron collider can split atoms and even subatomic particles, that doesn't mean that they can destroy so many atoms in one go as to where a nuclear bomb would go off every time they turned on the machine.
Seriously, this is just bad logic.
> Every statement on how their attacks work is that they're meant to be destroying atoms
What matters is if they're destroying all the atoms in an object, which is what actually matters for calcs here. If they destroy some unknown number of atoms then there's no way to calc it.
> The problem of their still being "Debris" seems to be just artistic license, as not only is Seiya repeatedly stating to be destroying the atoms, but later, we see other people explaining that something EXPLICTLY had their "Atoms destroyed" but their being bits and pieces left.
So we're supposed to accept ridiculous stretches in logic that are contradicted by nearly every feat these characters perform because of the possibility that the author secretely thinks that they're destroying all the atoms in these objects and is just never telling us, and that they're drawing debris to lead us off. What even.
For the last time, "atoms are being destroyed" is not "all atoms in this object are being destroyed".
> BOOM Done No more No need for more
If you're not going to comment anything productive on this thread, please don't comment at all. FRAs are for VS threads.
> destroying matter at the atomic level.
This is like saying that because Raiden from MGS destroys molecular bonds with his blade, he's actually destroying all the objects he slices in half on a molecular level, and the objects being cut in half instead of disintegrating (or honestly exploding with the force of multiple thermonuclear detonations, what would actually happen if that many atoms were being destroyed) is the game designer's "artistic interpretation".
It's a horrible argument, I don't know what else to say to this.
> It's just the way Masami Kurumada depicts Atomic Disintegratio
Or, just maybe, the conclusion that is never directly supported by scans and is being collectively pulled out of thin air, and is actively contradicted in the feats is just incorrect. I feel like this "it's the way he draws atomic disintegration" argument was just pulled out of nowhere to make up some plausible situation when literally nothing else in the series supports it.
> From what we're TOLD CONSISTENTLY, it's supposed to be atomic Destruction
This is completely meaningless without new scans that support this conclusion. The given scans in the OP and by other users do not even suggest total atomic destruction of any of the given objects, it just suggests that the characters are "targeting atoms" and "destroying atoms" when it gives no clue to how much of the object's atoms are destroyed.
You're told consistently statements that don't actually support your conclusion. Give new statements that actually give merit to this claim if you want to push this idea, please and thank you.
> Marin actually uses the word "Hakai" in Japanese to refer to what they're doing to the atoms, which means destroy.
Okay, and?
The large hadron collider can split atoms and even subatomic particles, that doesn't mean that they can destroy so many atoms in one go as to where a nuclear bomb would go off every time they turned on the machine.
Seriously, this is just bad logic.
> Every statement on how their attacks work is that they're meant to be destroying atoms
What matters is if they're destroying all the atoms in an object, which is what actually matters for calcs here. If they destroy some unknown number of atoms then there's no way to calc it.
> The problem of their still being "Debris" seems to be just artistic license, as not only is Seiya repeatedly stating to be destroying the atoms, but later, we see other people explaining that something EXPLICTLY had their "Atoms destroyed" but their being bits and pieces left.
So we're supposed to accept ridiculous stretches in logic that are contradicted by nearly every feat these characters perform because of the possibility that the author secretely thinks that they're destroying all the atoms in these objects and is just never telling us, and that they're drawing debris to lead us off. What even.
For the last time, "atoms are being destroyed" is not "all atoms in this object are being destroyed".
> BOOM Done No more No need for more
If you're not going to comment anything productive on this thread, please don't comment at all. FRAs are for VS threads.
> destroying matter at the atomic level.
This is like saying that because Raiden from MGS destroys molecular bonds with his blade, he's actually destroying all the objects he slices in half on a molecular level, and the objects being cut in half instead of disintegrating (or honestly exploding with the force of multiple thermonuclear detonations, what would actually happen if that many atoms were being destroyed) is the game designer's "artistic interpretation".
It's a horrible argument, I don't know what else to say to this.
> It's just the way Masami Kurumada depicts Atomic Disintegratio
Or, just maybe, the conclusion that is never directly supported by scans and is being collectively pulled out of thin air, and is actively contradicted in the feats is just incorrect. I feel like this "it's the way he draws atomic disintegration" argument was just pulled out of nowhere to make up some plausible situation when literally nothing else in the series supports it.
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I think it can be reasonably assumed the amount of atoms being destroyed is what is imbued into their fist (the size of their fist, or kicks sometimes headbutts), and not the outward expansion that happens as a result of the impact (The atomic destruction should be treated as hax, and not AP imo.)
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This example is not good, that pillar is the mainstay of Poseidon and is protected by his cosmos, in fact it would have remained intact even if the universe would have been destroyed. Seiya had to create a miracle to bring it down.
Please contextualize the events, because then to breach the wailing wall of Hades would have been enough a simple star bust attack, and not the reproduction of sunlight
Please contextualize the events, because then to breach the wailing wall of Hades would have been enough a simple star bust attack, and not the reproduction of sunlight
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It's litellary stated these attacks atomize the things they target
Once something is hit with Cosmo,it is disintegrated at a atomic level
Once something is hit with Cosmo,it is disintegrated at a atomic level
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Why would we assume that, and why is it remotely reasonable?TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
And I'm fine with it being treated as a degree of hax, akin to how we treat Raiden's high-frequency blade, but honestly there's currently no good reason for us to just assume out of nowhere that they can atomize fist-sized peices of matter off of the statement that they can atomize matter with no clear indication as to how much.
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None of that matters to the point he's trying to make, which is the fact that even when Seiya's miracle is stated to be "atomically destroying" the Pillar, you can clearly see it is not completely destroyed on such a level.
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