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Saint Seiya revision
- Thread starter Kepekley23
- Start date
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- pegasus seiya saint seiya
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- #42
@Matthew
Since the 6-C feat will be downgraded and Misty is still not scalable to Chapter 1 Bronze Saints, there is still the issue of where early Bronze Saints will be at.
Since the 6-C feat will be downgraded and Misty is still not scalable to Chapter 1 Bronze Saints, there is still the issue of where early Bronze Saints will be at.
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Wait.
6-C feat is the one we currently use for early Bronze Saints.
What made the downgraded calc (should be the same, but change atomize to pulverize) unusable for the Bronzes?
6-C feat is the one we currently use for early Bronze Saints.
What made the downgraded calc (should be the same, but change atomize to pulverize) unusable for the Bronzes?
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Visuals > statements.SinsofMan said:
There was debris. It clearly wasn't atomization. As Kep linked, even the first "shattering atoms" scene does not show actual atomization in the slightest.
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I highly doubt any medium visually shows atomization; like name one verse that actually demonstrates 6.022140758 * 10^23 on screen particles pure Mol?
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- #47
Most verses where atomization is assumed as a high-end at least show absolutely nothing left in the crater. This clearly shows an immense amount of debris, and is thus not atomization.DarkDragonMedeus said:
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Interesting that you use the exact opposite logic for other series.ParadoxIndifferent said:
All the explanation is that their attacks destroy atoms. To deny that is to deny the basic logic of the series in favor of a downgrade based on "This doesn't feel like atomization to me".
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- #49
By the way, just noting that the original calculation was actually based off of atomic annihilation (which is even worse...), not atomization as we use it. If we actually apply atomization, the result is still enormously lower (Multi-City Block level)
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It's not even worse. There were multiple threads explaining why Saint Seiya attacks use Atomic Annihilation, and it was ultimately accepted. The in-universe explanations for what their attacks do indicate atomic annihilation.
Which is in fact what I was asking when I asked about the result of splitting one atom. But I suspect that Kep knew that but chose to talk about a completely different method.
Which is in fact what I was asking when I asked about the result of splitting one atom. But I suspect that Kep knew that but chose to talk about a completely different method.
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> Interesting that you use the exact opposite logic for other series.
Ok bro.
> All the explanation is that their attacks destroy atoms. To deny that is to deny the basic logic of the series in favor of a downgrade based on "This doesn't feel like atomization to me".
The visuals of the actual crater explicitly show debris.
Ok bro.
> All the explanation is that their attacks destroy atoms. To deny that is to deny the basic logic of the series in favor of a downgrade based on "This doesn't feel like atomization to me".
The visuals of the actual crater explicitly show debris.
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All that arguably proves is that it's just that the whole crater wasn't completely annihilated but the destruction was still wrought by annihilating atoms, even if not all of them.
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- #53
Subatomic annihilation of ''one'' single particle still generates minuscule energy. Not like it changes much of my answer.
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There are plenty of attacks in Saint Seiya that completely annihilate their targets, actually. They just tend to be large AoE Blasts / Beams.Kepekley23 said:
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- #55
I never denied that, but this Chapter 1 crater wasn't one such attack.
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I agree with Matt and DDM.
For one we don't even know if the writer really knows what something being destroyed on the atomic level should look like. Hell I think most people wouldn't even be able to differentiate between vaporization and atomizing.
For one we don't even know if the writer really knows what something being destroyed on the atomic level should look like. Hell I think most people wouldn't even be able to differentiate between vaporization and atomizing.
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- #57
Here is the scene where Seiya creates the crater. He punches the ground and a gigantic, immense amount of debris flies everywhere from the crater. The scene shows the full crater, with all the debris ejected from it in the background.
Marin demonstrates the atomic shattering the Saints use by picking up a nearby rock. It shatters, with tons of debris flying everywhere.
Annihilating one single atom is pathetic in terms of energy yield, as we have already established. Even assuming they annihilated some very specific big pieces of the crater, it would still be, at the very most, Tier 8.
The assumption that Seiya can atomically annihilate in Chapter 1 may or may not be true, but this crater clearly wasn't an example.
Hope this helps.
Marin demonstrates the atomic shattering the Saints use by picking up a nearby rock. It shatters, with tons of debris flying everywhere.
Annihilating one single atom is pathetic in terms of energy yield, as we have already established. Even assuming they annihilated some very specific big pieces of the crater, it would still be, at the very most, Tier 8.
The assumption that Seiya can atomically annihilate in Chapter 1 may or may not be true, but this crater clearly wasn't an example.
Hope this helps.
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Kep and Dargoo are making the most sense here.
The wiki has some pretty consistent standards for atomization/vaporization being applied to feats. The scans Kep shows in his OP are definitively not either one for the wiki's standards, unless those changed very recently.
None of the scans linked trying to decry Kep's OP actually even explicitly state/show us that atoms themselves are being torn asunder by these attacks is the funny thing, it's all based in literally two scans which don't even mention atomization. Seriously look at this sca and then this sca which formed the basis of Matthew's counterargument and show me where on earth you get 'yeah they split atoms' from that.
This seems to be an instance where fan theory/translation became accepted canon, regardless of feats showing us otherwise and not being applicable to Wiki standards. Kep is simply correct here.
The wiki has some pretty consistent standards for atomization/vaporization being applied to feats. The scans Kep shows in his OP are definitively not either one for the wiki's standards, unless those changed very recently.
None of the scans linked trying to decry Kep's OP actually even explicitly state/show us that atoms themselves are being torn asunder by these attacks is the funny thing, it's all based in literally two scans which don't even mention atomization. Seriously look at this sca and then this sca which formed the basis of Matthew's counterargument and show me where on earth you get 'yeah they split atoms' from that.
This seems to be an instance where fan theory/translation became accepted canon, regardless of feats showing us otherwise and not being applicable to Wiki standards. Kep is simply correct here.
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If it's just revising the chapter 1 crater feat and matter manipulation then I agree. Just to be clear, only BoS Seiya will lose his atom hax, right?
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Mannn why would Seiya use his atomic hax?? That's not what this thread is about at all
Xulrev your comment sounds heavily like you don't believe Seiya uses atomic hax in the first place. If that's true then how are you even agreeing with Kep? Kep actually believes Seiya used atomic hax because of the fact that every attack in SS targets all atoms
Xulrev your comment sounds heavily like you don't believe Seiya uses atomic hax in the first place. If that's true then how are you even agreeing with Kep? Kep actually believes Seiya used atomic hax because of the fact that every attack in SS targets all atoms
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It's not a Fan Theory, Xulrev. It's directly stated outright and I and others showed many more scans that prove they destroy atoms. To ignore that as "Lol Fan Theory" just shows how uninformed on Saint Seiya you really are.
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- #62
I don't think we should waste time debating the idea that Saints have the power to target atoms with their attacks, if they're fighting seriously. That isn't the point.
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@Astral and Matt
I'm saying the evidence given is extremely weak, and was the basis of your initial counterargument. I'm not saying anything more or anything less. The fact that those scans are the strongest foot to put forward is immediately suspect since they're absurdly flowery and very vague.
Kep's argument and OP make the most sound, consistent sense
I'm saying the evidence given is extremely weak, and was the basis of your initial counterargument. I'm not saying anything more or anything less. The fact that those scans are the strongest foot to put forward is immediately suspect since they're absurdly flowery and very vague.
Kep's argument and OP make the most sound, consistent sense
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It's funny, because even in one of the descriptions about the power or attacks of the Saints you can see the split atoms.Xulrev said:
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- #66
Yes, that is my point.
I'm not denying they have atomic powers, but to say they atomically annihilated that crater is, and pardon my French: horseshit.
I'm not denying they have atomic powers, but to say they atomically annihilated that crater is, and pardon my French: horseshit.
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" I'm saying the evidence given is extremely weak, and was the basis of your initial counterargument. I'm not saying anything more or anything less. The fact that those scans are the strongest foot to put forward is immediately suspect since they're absurdly flowery and very vague. "
"Absurdly Flowery"
What is this, 2015? How is a detailed explanation of how the Saints' attacks and powers work and that it all comes from atoms meaningless flowery language?
"Absurdly Flowery"
What is this, 2015? How is a detailed explanation of how the Saints' attacks and powers work and that it all comes from atoms meaningless flowery language?
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My response was to people saying that there was no atomic destruction whatsoever which is an even bigger bs.
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Why are we having this conversation?
Cosmos is stated to atomize by Knowledgeable People and Word of God
Every attack they make is made of Cosmos and thus atomizes
Hell,the scene litellary shifts to shows us he's doing with success after so much training
Matthew had to prove again in a blog why Cosmos atomize and they don't get disintegrated
In a form or another,Cosmos attacks atomize and it's not mere debris that could be taking their time to get atomized that going to remove Atomization from Saint Seiya and endpoint!
Cosmos is stated to atomize by Knowledgeable People and Word of God
Every attack they make is made of Cosmos and thus atomizes
Hell,the scene litellary shifts to shows us he's doing with success after so much training
Matthew had to prove again in a blog why Cosmos atomize and they don't get disintegrated
In a form or another,Cosmos attacks atomize and it's not mere debris that could be taking their time to get atomized that going to remove Atomization from Saint Seiya and endpoint!
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It seems like everyone agrees with Kep's proposals.
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Okay, now do this: prove that everything in proximity to any Saint attack is atomized, and explain away the debris left over by attacks from them.
Per Wiki standards, that doesn't pan out.
Per the calcs Kep has given, the feat, regardless, doesn't hold up to where it's purported to.
The amount of ways the disagreement with the OP can be assailed are dizzying
Per Wiki standards, that doesn't pan out.
Per the calcs Kep has given, the feat, regardless, doesn't hold up to where it's purported to.
The amount of ways the disagreement with the OP can be assailed are dizzying
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- #74
Okay, let's say that crater was fully atomized, which it obviously wasn't.
That's still City Block level to Multi City Block level at most.
The Island level assumption is based on atomic annihilatio (subatomic destruction), not even just baseline atomization. Just so you can see how shaky the feat is.
That's still City Block level to Multi City Block level at most.
The Island level assumption is based on atomic annihilatio (subatomic destruction), not even just baseline atomization. Just so you can see how shaky the feat is.
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Also I'd argue that the debrie in a lot of the scenes is clearly not literal since the quantity there is often greater than the size of the original rock being destroyed.
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The Saints can destroy at the subatomic level, it is even described that they can destroy photons. In this scene you can also see that they destroy the nucleus of the atom.Kepekley23 said:
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This is a non-argument. If the feat is done through atomic annihilation you calc it through atomic annihilation. The higher result does not make the feat shakier. I didn't write the Saint Seiya Verse. If you think a setting where basic attacks bring about subatomic destruction you ought to complain to a 74 Year Old Japanese Man.Kepekley23 said:
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- #79
1. Those are not Bronze Saint level Saints, though.
2. Even assuming it's the case for every saint, it clearly didn't happen with the Chapter 1 crater.
2. Even assuming it's the case for every saint, it clearly didn't happen with the Chapter 1 crater.
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- #80
> This is a non-argument. If the feat is done through atomic annihilation you calc it through atomic annihilation. The higher result does not make the feat shakier.
I did not say that the result being higher made the feat shakier. I said that the fact the calculation is based on atomic annihilation, as opposed to even the already-iffy atomization is what makes it shakier. Because, simply put, neither of those things happened to this crater. Simple as that:
And I never denied that the Sains have atomic abilities, either.
I did not say that the result being higher made the feat shakier. I said that the fact the calculation is based on atomic annihilation, as opposed to even the already-iffy atomization is what makes it shakier. Because, simply put, neither of those things happened to this crater. Simple as that:
And I never denied that the Sains have atomic abilities, either.
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