- 6,436
- 1,665
Could you list who they are and where that's at?Still have two team members agreeing and one trying to disagree with the Op
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Could you list who they are and where that's at?Still have two team members agreeing and one trying to disagree with the Op
And 2 agreements isn’t an acceptanceStill have two team members agreeing and one trying to disagree with the Op
...At this time, I'm fine with HDE removal.
...Typing this before I read the OP: I do not guarantee my agreement in commenting. I apologize if this complicates things. I will also apologize the manner with which I'm going to organize my response- I'm going to copy segments of text and reference them until I post another bit. I may not copy all text for this, just what is convenient.
While I agree that it is more likely, based on the translation, that it is using "dimension" more frivolously here than one would expect, I don't agree that a higher-D object appearing in lower-D space would somehow disqualify it from being higher-D. I generally find this evaluation right, though.
Aye, I think that the statement is too vague. Agreed.
To be fair, my assessment is that "dimensions" here is used in terms of "alt dimensions"- other planes of existence, such as the underworld. You are right in that it is scantly evidence for 5-D.
This... is a significantly more complicated issue. Your interpretation isn't guaranteed right or wrong, I can see how this would be taken in the direction of supporting higher-D existence. Overall I would describe myself on neutral on rejecting this point. This may or may not be legitimate.
Overall I think the evidence is shaky enough to remove the rating.
Two members are enough to finish anything other than a popular verse (like DB, Naruto, Bleach)And 2 agreements isn’t an acceptance
Dude, are you still going to continue this?I don’t disagree that they do both ascend, just saying that each angle has its own aspects. The thoughts transcending space and time part in question, should only be for their minds, and is in reference to the most heightened state his consciousness reached to the point of understanding the world. Just as how 8th souls have their own aspects like being free of the cycle of the reincarnation and existing integrated in the universe, which, doesn’t really have anything to do with transcending space-time.
For what it’s worth, I’m open to discussing whether souls have HDE (4-D, the one thing that could imply 5-D is for their minds) for its own reasons, just not that particular statement. Though I do still stand by the mental plane specifically not being a 5-D realm (literally, the space and time transcendence of the mind even comes as a higher level from the level of mind to perceive that realm).
Absolutely notTwo members are enough to finish anything other than a popular verse (like DB, Naruto, Bleach)
Edit: Yeah, I still stand by the original proposal and all.Dude, are you still going to continue this?
He's correct, actually. More controversial verses require more, but for less debated verses such as this'n, two staff members is the listed acceptable amount of evaluations.Absolutely not
4 mods can pass a CRT but only 2 is needed to remove it?He's correct, actually. More controversial verses require more, but for less debated verses such as this'n, two staff members is the listed acceptable amount of evaluations.
I mean if we got 4 here it would still be accepted, yes.4 mods can pass a CRT but only 2 is needed to remove it?
I mean the CRT that got this accepted in the first place got 4 mods agreeing but their 4 votes can’t be undone by a CRT with 2 mods.I mean if we got 4 here it would still be accepted, yes.
I'm just relaying the rules to you. Two staff members are sufficient to accept a CRT. If the other CRT received extra acceptance, that's good, but it doesn't just rewrite the rules.I mean the CRT that got this accepted in the first place got 4 mods agreeing but their 4 votes can’t be undone by a CRT with 2 mods.
that makes 0 sense.
mind you, this would also probably be the only tier 1 crt to be acted upon with only 2 staff votes in the entire time I’ve been on the site as far as my knowledge goes as well.
Ah, on second thought, I take that back. I'm not sure I can compromise keeping it for the mind either. I hadn't really looked into the scan sent above myself that made me consider it and took the time just now.Sure, I've just slightly changed the proposal due to a newer statement above about the 8th sense above from removing HDE altogether to removing it from the soul and keeping it for the mind.
The writer doesn't say that the 8th sense actually is dimensional ascension, she simply says that she was thinking about whether it had some similarities, and afterwards literally says that she didn't come up with an answer to that and wrote the story accorddingly. This isn't really any sort of evidence for HDE whatsoever, as it's not equating them in the first place, was merely fleeting speculation from the author who in the end admits she didn't come up with an answer to it.ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
As for the story, I had it on my mind at the time, that the 8th sense/Aryashiki and dimensional ascension might have something in common. I worked it out/managed without an answer, and it became a hectic and memorable 3 episodes.
It's not really thread manipulation.these rules just make thread manipulation even easier
it would be easier to let this pass then make an upgrade thread and have 2 new staff members agree to it and pass that
The 2 most recent staff agreements after new information debunking the OP was presented. And 1 staff agreeing whom admits he isn't the best source, and he is only going by what is in the OP.So 2 disagrees is enough to say this crt is rejected then right?
So 2 disagrees is enough to say this crt is rejected then right?
There is 2. Excutor and DDMIsn't there only 1 disagree?
But Excutor is a calc group.There is 2. Excutor and DDM
Im.mot sure what rules say, but I've seen other threads use calc members votes for staff votes. They do count as honorary staff too if that means anything.But Excutor is a calc group.
I see, thank you very much for your attention.Edit: Yeah, I still stand by the original proposal and all.
thanks for explaining broHe's correct, actually. More controversial verses require more, but for less debated verses such as this'n, two staff members is the listed acceptable amount of evaluations.
If this thread does not get a proper response, it is clear that the OP is more likely to be right, after all it was thrown several whataboutism at the beginning of it, but no reasonable rebuttal at all.It's controversial. Regardless of popularity.You'll likely need more. Anythibg tier 1 is controversial. Also, there's a team on discord developing a Google doc wprths of counter arguments.
Calc group members are generally respected enough to speak unless told otherwise but no, they are not evaluating staff. Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats are the three staff groups able to give evaluations and have that be counted when it comes down to "voting".Im.mot sure what rules say, but I've seen other threads use calc members votes for staff votes. They do count as honorary staff too if that means anything.
In addition to that,
He's also one of the best and most reliable Translators on the Site which was needed, and he's also among one of the best Tier 1 knowledgeable members/staff on the site which again was also needed.
content mods dont get evaluation rights? considering they deal with the wiki's standards the most, thats a little oddCalc group members are generally respected enough to speak unless told otherwise but no, they are not evaluating staff. Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats are the three staff groups able to give evaluations and have that be counted when it comes down to "voting".
I disagree with it, yes. But that is the policy.content mods dont get evaluation rights? considering they deal with the wiki's standards the most, thats a little odd
The reason for this is because The Soul and Mind have a change in their dimensionality when the 8th stage of consciousness is awakened.
So here, the fact that Illias says this as something that applies to all souls (not something exclusive to those who awaken 8th sense) makes it abundantly evident that he's not referring to some literal change in dimensionality, but simply referring to the description in the series of souls ascending to the Underworld (another dimension) after death.
There are countless scenes in the series that clearly show us that merely becoming a disembodied soul out of a dead body does that remotely equate to them becoming higher dimensional objects, as they can still be contained within, finite, 3-D spaces and like most interpretations of souls in fiction, are relative in size to their real 3-D bodies. I feel as though this shouldn't even need citations since it's so common knowledge to anyone who knows the slightest about the series, but regardless I'll leave a few notable scenes that showcase this below.
To quote the wiki standards page again:
And lets look at the translated statement:A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.
A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.
It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.
Click to expand...
Very straightforward here. His thoughts transcended space and time (not his being itself), and as he notes in the previous sentence and the what the Wiki standards require, the background context here is that this in reference to him gaining knowledge of the workings of the world. This has absolutely nothing to do with 5-D dimensional transcendence or existence.It’s…..almost as if something separated from me. Almost as if I knew the workings of the world from the beginning. I, who understand what I am, my thoughts transcend space as well as time. Indeed, I will never be lost…
Cool but, this has nothing to do with higher dimensions either. And it says he can perceive multiple dimensions, not multiverse, but it doesn't matter either way.
This is so grossly out of context it's hard to think where to even begin.
Asmita here is saying that the higher plane Illias was in felt as if it were beyond some thin impenetrable membrane, but now he'd finally reached it. The statement by nature is a metaphorical comparison and not literal, and even if it were literal, he never calls it some higher dimensional membrane or anything like that in the scans, nor does he make any note of the universe. And also, from the above, we already know Illias spiritual existence was in the regular world, and this in reference to his mind/consciousness.
The actual context of this realm that Illias's mind reached and his state of being and how they get there makes it clear this interpretation makes absolutely no sense of it being some 5-D higher spatial dimension or dimensional transcendence to reach it.
To preface this part, I'll note the Wiki standards regarding "higher dimension/plane" statements.
As the standards say, it's important to note what exactly is meant here by a "higher dimension" in the context of the setting itself, and should have evidence of being qualitatively superior to the universe, like encompassing it within itself, seeing it as fiction, being a higher state of being. None of this is the case whatsoever here.
SPOILER
So from the following, we are already given direct confirmation that Illias' soul/cosmo continues to exist in the regular world as an integrated part, merely unbound by the cycle of life and death (as others who have awakened 8th sense).Asmita:やはり彼の小宇宙は輪廻を外れ世界にとけ込み生きている
Asmita: After all, his cosmo is out of Samsara (cycle of life and death), blending into the world and living in it.
Asmita: Fue el leo anterior... como lo pense, su cosmos ha salido del ciclo de muerte y resurrection y sigue viviendo en este mundo.
Asmita: It was the previous Leo... as I thought, his cosmo has come out of the cycle of death and resurrection and continues to live on in this world.
From the summary of the chapter courtesy of the translators at SaintSeiyaForos:
Afirma que es el León anterior y que su cosmos está fuera del ciclo de la vida y la muerte, viviendo integrado en el mundo.
He affirms that he is the previous Lion and that his cosmo is outside the cycle of life and death, living integrated into the world.
Click to expand...
SPOILER
A mental plane created and shaped by the thoughts of Illias, Sisyphos, and Asmita, as stated, and shown through the fight sequences and interactions in it where we see their thoughts shaping said reality (such as Illias' thoughts manifesting a train to ram into Sisyphos and Asmita).
How this dimension was reached:
As stated and shown above, this dimension is reached simply by raising one's consciousness and searching within himself and believing in the respective phenomenon of a world where thoughts create reality. This has absolutely nothing to do with dimensional transcendence whatsoever or breaching some sort of higher dimensional membrane.
think this is quite self explanatory at this point. The higher dimension statement is in reference to the plane being a higher dimension of thought and consciousness, and isn't remotely some actual physical spatial dimension or an R>F transcendent reality that views the universe as fiction whatsoever, not even close. It's not even inherently real by conventional terms and is shown to be a metaphysical, mental thing, hence why it can be reached simply by raising one's level of consciousness and searching deep within one's mind, which in this case clearly has 0 pertinence to any sort of dimensional transcendence. Especially since we know that even for Illias himself, his actual spiritual existence is still confirmed to be in the regular world, further proving the abstract, mental nature of this world.
Could you retag the staff members to see the new updated counters if possible? Thank youI disagree with it, yes. But that is the policy.
Just the ones who spoke on this thread already. It doesn't appear anyone else is interested hereDo you mean the ones from the previous thread that have been talked about at length or those who spoke here already?
Aye, no problem.BTW thank you for helping us out
Here the OP states that Dimensionality isn't "Additonal axis" of an extra dimension but is just "Dimension" as in a realm or universe.
However, this contradicts the OPs own stated perspective of the series
This is because the terminology "Dimension" within the franchise always references a singular spacetime continuum. To give a pretty clear example of that, its here
The 2nd issue with this statement, is that the Underworld is never stated, or called a "Dimension" to my knowledge. So he would have to prove that it is one by the terminology, and standards set within the franchise. As it has always been stated to be a "Plane of existence" or "realm" from the knowledge i remember.
That's stated nowhere in the chapter in any of Illias' explanation, all due respect, you're making stuff and fabricating context here.The Op stated here that their are souls that have died, and are still 3D in size and being.
However this is taking something greatly out of context. The "Change in the dimensionality of the soul" comes from because of Hades snatching souls before they can move on into the cycle of samsara. This is because of the uniqueness of Hades Underworld structure. So, no this doens't apply to every soul upon death.
These are the lines that directly precede Illias making that statement. Illias brings it up as a new perspective for Sispyhos to consider in regards to whether he"s really "dead" from a ideological standpoint. Illias isn't in the Underworld nor is he talking about the 8th sense.Sisyphos: Hmm... es realmente mi hermano mayor... pero Rasgado y Regulus... dijeron que estaba muerto...
Sisyphos: Hmm... it's really my older brother... but Hasgard and Regulus
Ilias: ... Ciertamente
¿Pero desde qué perspectiva estás hablando?
Illias: Certainly. But from what perspective are you speaking?
Yet the upgrade thread doesn't give any of said background information that falls under the HDE standards.Here the OP is saying that "transcendence" requires background information.
However, background context is given but is ignored for the sake of cherry picking. When i made the upgrade thread i understood well that transcendence needed more to it than the word by itself.
Here the OP is saying my translation is wrong and is not refferring to a infinite structure being scene as fiction by a finite amount in an attempt to debunk RFD
Ive asked multiple times on this on R/translator and it was translated as "Multiverse" multiple times
This doesn't really address my point. The membrane part is completely metaphorical, and I've already gone in detail as to why the higher dimension part doesn't meet the standards to be in reference to a literal higher spatial dimension.Here the OP is saying its flowerly language is not literal
Asmita is describing how this higher dimenisonal separation felt from the universe
and the second half of the paragraph is just wrong the sentence does use 高次元 = literal mathematical higher dimensions and its being used as an adjective to describe (from what i been told) 膜 = a membrane
the third part of "the Universe" comes from the scene of Asmita awakening further into the 8th sense where he gains cosmic awarness.
Though I do still stand by the mental plane specifically not being a 5-D realm (literally, the space and time transcendence of the mind even comes as a higher level from the level of mind to perceive that realm).
The Dark Wing example has literally nothing to do with her soul being the size of universes, it's implied to be because her soul perhaps reincarnates between universes, with the way she talks in first person.Here it appears the OP is unaware of some supporting feats that suggest the Size of the Soul is more than the multiverse.
To give a couple examples,
Athena showed her True Soul in Dark Wing Series, and she showed Multiverse awarenenss
in addition to that, Athena in human form was stated to be "infinitesimal" which isn't her true form, but her human form.
Additionally, in the story of LC, Illias's soul is described as "being everywhere."
Asmita: El leon nos llama desde el viento. El emprendio finalmente el viaje a la tierra.
Asmita: The lion calls us from the wind. He's finally made his journey to Earth.
Mind pointing to anywhere where I ever even said or implied it's an illusion? That's a strawman to my argument.
Here the OP states the Dimension is just llusion created by the thoughts of asmita and Sisyphus but this is wrong.
This is ignoring the whole sequence of events and context. Asmita, and Sisphus were not even thinking of Illias at that moment, and it was Illias who created the trap which is blatantly stated.
Denying this is the only ignorance of context here.Asmita: I finally managed to reach his cosmos. This space is a battlefield for thoughts. As so, you have to ascend to the level of his consciousness.
Illias: It's your array of thoughts within my array of my thoughts...
Sisyphos: Yes, this is the world where the intense thoughts of Lord Ilias are realized/come true. In other words, a world where I must believe in this phenomenon in order for it to come true.
Sisyphos: This is Ilias' space. The intense thoughts and desires of Mr. Ilias materialize. I have to sharpen my senses and search deeper within myself. In other words, a space that is unreachable unless a phenomenon is reproduced.
Raising their consciousness is what allows them to perceive and shape the realm, yeah. It works hand in hand.Here the OP contradicts his previous statement
according to the OP reaching this mental plane requires raising ones consciousness which then shapes this reality to their thoughts. This is saying letter F comes before the letter A. This is purposeful misordering of events to fit a downgrade narrative.
It's not a contradiction. It came first because Illias' thoughts were what initially created the realm. This doesn't effect my point whatsoever.The contradiction is this. Using the OP's Logic Asmita and Sisyphus needed a reason to raise their consciousness to a level where reality can suddenly start taking a shape to their thoughts. However, hes saying this mental plane came first, but this mental plane is what is needed to see Illias. Thus a contradiciton is created.
however, if the OP loses the contradiction he then loses another point important to his argument. ditching either point is a lose-lose for the OP.
So then I take it you acknowledge that the chapters themselves and by this specific author don't have any context for RDF here, considering you immediately turn to completely different series by completely different authors already.Here the OP concludes that RDF isn't being shown here
however, there is supporting evidence in the other titles in the franchise.
True Athena in Dark Wing has Shown multiversal awareness and even shown that she knows events happening across other timelines
Alscepius in Next Dimension Stated he can see all movment in all of creation. He even saw Athena moving from one timeline into another
In Requiem the cyclops Shura fought (forgot his name) is able to see the space between dimensions/universes including attacks that travel along it. which means he can see attacks that travel along a 5D Axis. he even knows who that shura was and knows that shura was responsible for the destruction of other worlds.
The Oracle Delphi is implied to be an 8th sense users and even gives us a detailed picture of the multiverse in a simplistic manner
Kairos/Yoma goes on about how "the future" is like a badly written script to himself.
in the manga Hero of Heroes, the Gods are shown percieving each world and their events in a book
You also have Santia Sho with the "Reverse side of world" where Dysmonia can percieve each Universe and look upon their history, and each universe is tiny glittering sparkles to her.
That's what most of that is.The ability to observe phenomena and be aware of events on a cosmic scale, though the specifics may vary. Users of Cosmic Awareness can often sense others and detect potential threats across an interstellar, galactic, or even universal scale, with the greatest of users being so tuned in that they can feel out even the specifics of molecular movements across such distances. Cosmic Awareness is associated with both Clairvoyance and Enhanced Senses and acts as a combination of the two that takes it to a much higher scale, allowing users to observe others from across the universe and "hear" things across such distances.
Already gone over this above, this translation's off after I've looked into it.Additonally, you have the new evidence of a statement from the Artist, and Co-writer of LC
ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
When it comes to the story, I tried to come up with something in common between the 8th sense (Arayashiki) and dimensional ascension, which was on my mind at the time... I couldn't find an answer for it, but I managed to come up with something in the 3rd story.
The writer doesn't say that the 8th sense actually is dimensional ascension, she simply says that she was thinking about whether it had some similarities, and afterwards literally says that she didn't come up with an answer to that and wrote the story accorddingly. This isn't really any sort of evidence for HDE whatsoever, as it's not equating them in the first place, was merely fleeting speculation from the author who in the end admits she didn't come up with an answer to it.
If anything, this reads as though it works against any concrete portrayal of HDE for the 8th sense.