Saint Seiya 8th Sense 5D HDE Removal

[Executor_N0]

ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
When it comes to the story, I tried to come up with something in common between the 8th sense (Arayashiki) and dimensional ascension, which was on my mind at the time... I couldn't find an answer for it, but I managed to come up with something in the 3rd story.

Where is that from? It could be enough evidence to solve this if needed.

 

[StekFence]

It’s from the end of the special all these scans come from, I can post it

 

[StekFence]

is this good?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

How could it be a consistent interpretation if the only way to reach this result is to use the words objectively wrong. Dimensionality is solely for describing the amount of dimensions a subject has.

The literal translation is just "dimension(s) of the soul", which in itself is not that straightforward and dimension is very often used frivolously in fiction without making reference to literal R>F transcendence or another axis.

And there actually is certain evidence that they become 5D in existence. For instance, the mind, which is stated to be HDE, is stated to see multiple dimensions and transcends space and time, and also gives knowledge of everything since the beginning of time. These statements combined heavily Suggest the Mind literally has gone beyond space And time in the most literal sense, as it can now see it on a different level. Also, the measurement of a 5d or above object by its length,width,height, or even position in time is comepltley irrelevant to the measure of its 5th measure. A soul could be higher D without actually being Uber wide and tall, so this isn’t a valid argument.

And that ability is fine, but none of it is anything concrete for R>F or higher spatial dimension transcendence cited in the wiki. The thoughts transcending time statement is in itself in reference to him gaining knowledge across history. I really don't see how it automatically equates it to effectively seeing the world as fiction or infinitesimal.

How so? From what I read higher dimensions are comprised of an uncountably infinite slices of a lower dimensional object. Having a 5th axis would make them that big. Like how the 4-D part of universes are made of infinite snapshots of the 3-D part.

ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
When it comes to the story, I tried to come up with something in common between the 8th sense (Arayashiki) and dimensional ascension, which was on my mind at the time... I couldn't find an answer for it, but I managed to come up with something in the 3rd story.
From this WoG, it can be surmised that she intended for the 8th sense to be HDE, and considering when she actually wrote the story, she had Illias say all souls have HDE, it can be reasonably assumed that this how she did it. Of course I’m making a connection between the 8th sense and souls. For several reasons, 1. Both have stated HDE. 2. Both ideas are closely related in universe in the first place. When a soul goes to the underworld, they lose their 7th sense, and have the opportunity to awaken the 8th.

Nothing in the Special Chapters actually shows anything solid for 5-D HDE though, and in any case, it shouldn't apply to their souls, since everything in that story involving this was about their minds.

Regular souls aren't closely related to the ideas to the universe, they're just souls. And the 8th sense in the TLC special chapters is just about a higher state of mind. Regulars souls just don't awaken the 8th sense. In the chapters in question, these are quite distinguished from each other. All the statements about the 8th sense in question have been in reference to their minds.

 

[Executor_N0]

is this good?

Yes, perfectly fine. I would say that it's enough to say that the mention of a higher dimensionality and its relationship as an understanding of soul ascension is intentional and not just an "interpretation using the highest possibility"

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

To illustrate this point, imagine a square that is 5 meters by 5 meters. If its dimensionality were to change into a 3D cube, it would gain an extra dimension that measures 5 meters. The first two measures don’t have to change, and if you were looking head on, aka perceiving only two dimensions, you wouldn’t perceive a difference.

Right, but said dimension would still be infinitely bigger than the lower ones.

Yes, perfectly fine. I would say that it's enough to say that the mention of a higher dimensionality and its relationship as an understanding of soul ascension is intentional and not just an "interpretation using the highest possibility"

The 8th sense in the chapters that's referring to isn't really about soul ascension though, and is about their minds specifically, we're even told directly that Illias' soul lives on integrated into the world. It's a reference to Regulus vs. Rhadamanthys from the main story, where his soul lives on in nature (free from the cycle of death and rebirth) after awakening the 8th sense, even making a direct reference to Illias himself. They don't ascend to a higher dimension.

Spoiler

I could perhaps consider a middle ground like keeping it for their minds, but it I just don't see how it's applicable to their souls in any case.

 

[StekFence]

The literal translation is just "dimension(s) of the soul", which in itself is not that straightforward and dimension is very often used frivolously in fiction without making reference to literal R>F transcendence or another axis.

so it could be either dimension as a mathematical term, or as a synonym for universe? Well we have multiple statements of space time transcendence, and statements of ascending dimensions, so how likely exactly is the latter interpretation exactly?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

so it could be either dimension as a mathematical term, or as a synonym for universe? Well we have multiple statements of space time transcendence, and statements of ascending dimensions, so how likely exactly is the latter interpretation exactly?

Because those statements you're referring is about the thoughts/consciousness of 8th sense users, not their souls or other human souls. They're completely unrelated. Like I said I could even consider keeping it for their minds, just not their souls.

 

[Hasty12345]

The mental plane should be 5D irrespective of any potential scaling, which again… was supposed to be discussed separately from the initial upgrade anyway.

this thread is blatant retaliation to potential scaling.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

The mental plane should be 5D irrespective of any potential scaling, which again… was supposed to be discussed separately from the initial upgrade anyway.

this thread is blatant retaliation to potential scaling.

Why would the mental plane specifically be 5-D? It's already been detailed that connecting statements about the 8th sense and the mental plane itself is non sequitur because they're completely unrelated, the mental being a place reachable to anyone who raises their consciousness high enough, independent of the 8th sense.

 

[Alonik]

Because those statements you're referring is about the thoughts/consciousness of 8th sense users, not their souls or other human souls. They're completely unrelated. Like I said I could even consider keeping it for their minds, just not their souls.

Actually it is about the soul of Humans, Ilias comments on this. The idea that this passed is about how humans can evolve as a soul and leave the perspective of space-time and not be consumed by the lands of Hades, the underworld. Ilias also commented that humanity and each soul needs to evolve to reach this level, so that then the elysiums will be on earth. If we combine this with Next Dimension, it's basically humans returning to Eden from which they were expelled as Odysseus commented.

It's interesting that you have this context in mind, because when Asmita ascended to this plane with his 8th sense, he still said that he was respectively part of that universe. I would say that the peeps here are right about HDE, but not about 5D, it is something much more 4D than anything else.

 

[StekFence]

I really don't see how it automatically equates it to effectively seeing the world as fiction or infinitesimal.

it doesn’t, however, this is something a higher dimensional mind could potentially do, which is why it’s supporting evidence, as I’ve said.

And the 8th sense in the TLC special chapters is just about a higher state of mind.

then why would everyone have to burn their Cosmo higher in order to get it. It clearly cannot only be a mental thing.

Right, but said dimension would still be infinitely bigger than the lower ones.

I never claimed otherwise, but that fact is neither here nor there.

They're completely unrelated.

the relation is that they are both said to ascend dimensionally in the exact same chapter.

 

[StekFence]

I would say that the peeps here are right about HDE, but not about 5D, it is something much more 4D than anything else.

I disagree, because space and time are mentioned to be transcended, so the Higher d being 4-D, as opposed to being beyond that doesn’t seem correct to me.

 

[Alonik]

I think there's something I'm missing, but it's not a mental state, it's rather a spiritual state. Maybe it's because of the poor english translations that put mental, after all the kanji for spirit and mind are the same.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

As I said, I'm neutral on the mind stuff now, just against applying those statements about their minds to their souls, for obvious reasons.

then why would everyone have to burn their Cosmo higher in order to get it. It clearly cannot only be a mental thing.

They burn their cosmo to heighten their consciousness and mind. Asmita directly says this.

the relation is that they are both said to ascend dimensionally in the exact same chapter.

The 8th sense stuff is purely In reference to their mind and thought.

I disagree, because space and time are mentioned to be transcended, so the Higher d being 4-D, as opposed to being beyond that doesn’t seem correct to me.

The thing is that the space and time statements was in reference to their minds, not their souls, hence why trying to correlate them doesn't really work.

 

[Alonik]

I disagree, because space and time are mentioned to be transcended, so the Higher d being 4-D, as opposed to being beyond that doesn’t seem correct to me.

You need to at least show a 4D space dimension for this. Not least because they did not leave the universe, Asmita makes it clear that they were still part of the universe even in that state. If they had left the entire space-time continuum as a whole it would be a maybe.

 

[Hasty12345]

Why would the mental plane specifically be 5-D? It's already been detailed that connecting statements about the 8th sense and the mental plane itself is non sequitur because they're completely

You need to at least show a 4D space dimension for this. Not least because they did not leave the universe, Asmita makes it clear that they were still part of the universe even in that state. If they had left the entire space-time continuum as a whole it would be a maybe.

Universes can have atypical structures in fiction. Marvel is a prime example of this.

 

[Alonik]

Universes can have atypical structures in fiction. Marvel is a prime example of this.

Yes, I don't disagree. But that falls apart when the argument is structured in "The universe is Low 2-C, and Arayashiki is going beyond that Low 2-C universe by seeing the multiverse" through a pretty garbage translation of "multiple dimensions".

If the argument were "The universe has 4D structures, and the arayashiki is a dimensional ascension beyond that 4D structure" you would be right.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Universes can have atypical structures in fiction. Marvel is a prime example of this.

I don't think that's really the case here since for Asmita/Regulus/Illias since their end state was becoming one with nature and living on in the regular world free from Samsara. It's the whole theme behind Illias and Regulus existing and being felt through the wind.

 

[Alonik]

I don't think that's really the case here since for Asmita/Regulus/Illias since their end state was becoming one with nature and living on in the regular world free from Samsara. It's the whole theme behind Illias and Regulus existing and being felt through the wind.

Yes, that part is right. That is why the "exist in multiple dimensions", which is to exist both on earth and on the spiritual plane, outside the cycle of life and death.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes, I don't disagree. But that falls apart when the argument is structured in "The universe is Low 2-C, and Arayashiki is going beyond that Low 2-C universe by seeing the multiverse" through a pretty garbage translation of "multiple dimensions".

If the argument were "The universe has 4D structures, and the arayashiki is a dimensional ascension beyond that 4D structure" you would be right.

I see.

I thought the multiverse part seemed weird, but then I thought well it’s not “incorrect” as it can by technicality mean that but I didn’t think it directly said it.

 

[Alonik]

I'll wait for folks to answer this, once those who support this come up with the counter-argument I'll formulate a better opinion on this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Executor N0

 

[Executor_N0]

Something that needs to be understood is that still existing in the "universe" isn't necessarily a reason to really be not higher-dimensional. It depends on the scope of what the "universe" is. For example, if this side of the world is unbounded by the laws of karma and beyond time and space, it can still be thought of as being "inside of the world" but "untouched by anyone whose soul didn't ascend dimensionally". It all depends on the scope at that time that was said. Because it's still something that is mentioned to exist in a "higher dimension", "unbounded by the limits of time and space" and "able to perceive in multiple dimensions at once", which doesn't really go against it being "inside the world", if the scope of what they consider the world is at that level, but as something that no one that isn't at their level can perceive.

Basically, just still being considered to be "in the universe" or "one with nature" doesn't contradict it also being higher-dimensional, if anything there are a lot of worldviews that would consider that level of existence is the true/natural state of existence before being chained by the laws of karma. It all depends on the context.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Something that needs to be understood is that still existing in the "universe" isn't necessarily a reason to really be not higher-dimensional. It depends on the scope of what the "universe" is. For example, if this side of the world is unbounded by the laws of karma and beyond time and space, it can still be thought of as being "inside of the world" but "untouched by anyone whose soul didn't ascend dimensionally". It all depends on the scope at that time that was said. Because it's still something that is mentioned to exist in a "higher dimension", "unbounded by the limits of time and space" and "able to perceive in multiple dimensions at once", which doesn't really go against it being "inside the world", if the scope of what they consider the world is at that level, but as something that no one that isn't at their level can perceive.

Basically, just still being considered to be "in the universe" or "one with nature" doesn't contradict it also being higher-dimensional, if anything there are a lot of worldviews that would consider that level of existence is the true/natural state of existence before being chained by the laws of karma. It all depends on the context.

Right, but those statements about time and space and perceiving dimensions were about their minds specifically and the 8th sense heightening their thoughts to the point of understanding the whole world, it's unrelated to the state of their souls.

But at this point I'm fine with using those statements you reference to keep their minds with HDE, though.

 

[Khanhba01]

So currently DDM has changed his vote to disagree with this thread when he agrees with Executor's opinion or what? Can someone explain more clearly?

 

[Executor_N0]

Right, but those statements about time and space and perceiving dimensions were about their minds specifically and the 8th sense heightening their thoughts to the point of understanding the whole world, it's unrelated to the state of their souls.

But at this point I'm fine with using those statements you reference to keep their minds with HDE, though.

I don't think the characters are Low 1-C or anything like that, only that they reach a state of existence that can be seen as higher dimensional.

But, I need to say this in case anyone wonders, but metaphysical dimensions and physical dimensions very often overlap in this wiki's system. It really doesn't matter if a realm is metaphysical, spiritual or anything like that, if it features physical transcendence, it's often regarded as being able to be equivalent to a higher physical dimension.

This happens for two reasons. The first is that by nature, many metaphysical cosmologies do have something akin to higher transcendence over the physical realm, if you read "Proclus: Metaphysical Elements" you will be surprised by how common it's the understanding that higher realms of existence are akin to infinite to those who reside below, but at the same time are finite to those who are beyond them.

Like

Every infinite which is in true beings is neither infinite to superior natures, nor is it infinite to itself.
For that by which each thing is infinite, by this likewise it exists uncircumscribed. But every thing which is in true beings is bounded by itself, and by all the things prior to it. It follows, therefore, that the infinite which is in true beings is infinite to subordinate natures alone, above which it is so expanded in power that it is incomprehensible by all of them. For in whatever manner they may extend themselves towards this infinite, yet it has something entirely exempt from them. And though all things enter into it, yet it has something occult and incomprehensible by secondary natures. Though likewise it evolves the powers which it contains, yet it possesses something on account of its union insurmountable, contracted, and surpassing the evolution of beings. Since, however, it contains and bounds itself, it will not be infinite to itself, nor much less to the natures above it, since it has a portion of the infinity which is in them. For the powers of more total or universal natures are more infinite because they are more universal, and rank nearer to the first infinity.For that by which each thing is infinite, by this likewise it exists uncircumscribed. But every thing which is in true beings is bounded by itself, and by all the things prior to it. It follows, therefore, that the infinite which is in true beings is infinite to subordinate natures alone, above which it is so expanded in power that it is incomprehensible by all of them. For in whatever manner they may extend themselves towards this infinite, yet it has something entirely exempt from them. And though all things enter into it, yet it has something occult and incomprehensible by secondary natures. Though likewise it evolves the powers which it contains, yet it possesses something on account of its union insurmountable, contracted, and surpassing the evolution of beings. Since, however, it contains and bounds itself, it will not be infinite to itself, nor much less to the natures above it, since it has a portion of the infinity which is in them. For the powers of more total or universal natures are more infinite because they are more universal, and rank nearer to the first infinity.

So, if a work of fiction features a metaphysical realm that is non-corporeal by nature, it can still be given a higher dimensional tier if it shows spatiotemporal transcendence over the physical realm. In fact, a lot of 1-A realms are in fact based on those metaphysical cosmologies that address the nature of pure spatiotemporal transcendence instead of just being a higher physical dimension of either time or space.

That is complemented by the second reason, it has turned very common to try and merge metaphysical cosmologies as extensions of the physical reality using higher dimensions in fiction. Many works of fiction decided to make use of physical Higher Dimensions to explain that is "where souls come from", I prefer to call them "false metaphysics" because it's not really metaphysical, but it's easy to understand why they do that. So you have stuff like that all over the place, and that seems to be the view of what LC author was going with that line, she read about higher dimensions and thought it could fit to what the 8th sense was about, and decided to make use of that even with her not fully understanding the subject.

So, there isn't really a problem for a mix of phyisics and metaphyisics to get a higher dimensional tiering if some kind of spatiotemporal transcendence is featured as well. Therefore, it's not a problem for the LC ranting to be given if it's the intent to have the spiritural side having said spatiotemporal transcendence.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

So, there isn't really a problem for a mix of phyisics and metaphyisics to get a higher dimensional tiering if some kind of spatiotemporal transcendence is featured as well. Therefore, it's not a problem for the LC ranting to be given if it's the intent to have the spiritural side having said spatiotemporal transcendence.

Yeah, I totally get the explanation in general and really appreciate it, I'm just not really sure that the "transcending space and time" part was really written to be related to any spiritual transcendence in this specific case, I should probably post that full scene to illustrate what I mean, I've forgotten to do that.

Sisyphos:アスミタ小宇宙が満ちる...この思考の陣を塗り変える・・・
Sisyphos: Asmita's cosmo is rising, repainting this line of thought/thought territory

Asmita: なんだ・・・まるで なにかの俺から放たれたように。 さいしょ まるで最初から 知っていたように世界の仕組みが 自分が何者であるかが分かる・・・私の思いは時間も空間も超える・・・
Asmita: It's as if something separated from me. It's as if I've known from the beginning how the world works, who I am... My thoughts transcend time and space..

Sisyphos: まさはかここはアスミタのしこう思考・・・
Sisyphos: It can't be.. these are Asmita's thoughts..

Scans:

Spoiler

Basically, the idea here is that Asmita raises his cosmo to heighten his mind (as he did in the last chapter), and as a result, manages to finally awaken the 8th sense, and his thoughts reach the point of understanding the whole world. It's referred to completely as his thoughts specifically though and it's all about his mind and consciousness, hence why I don't think this particular statement should be correlated to anything related to spirituality at all. The 8th sense does different unrelated things for their souls and minds, and I think its the only the latter that qualifies for HDE based on this context. Hope that makes more sense.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yeah, I totally get the explanation in general and really appreciate it, I'm just not really sure that the "transcending space and time" part was really written to be related to any spiritual transcendence in this specific case, I should probably post that full scene to illustrate what I mean, I've forgotten to do that.

Basically, the idea here is that Asmita raises his cosmo to heighten his mind (as he did in the last chapter), and as a result, manages to finally awaken the 8th sense, and his thoughts reach the point of understanding the whole world. It's referred to completely as his thoughts specifically though and it's all about his mind and consciousness, hence why I don't think this particular statement should be correlated to anything related to spirituality at all. The 8th sense does different unrelated things for their souls and minds, and I think its the only the latter that qualifies for HDE based on this context. Hope that makes more sense.

The soul part comes from another set of scans where ots stared the soul and mind "ascend" together

Also I do think this very same volume has a scam that says the same too.

Typing on phone so I'm sorry for any confusion from typos

 

[Alonik]

It honestly doesn't matter. Whether it's consciousne or spiritual, it doesn't matter.

I'm changing my vote to neutral because I disagree with the OP's arguments that don't directly refute anything, but I also disagree with HDE (5D) for other reasons that the chapters show, but it definitely has nothing to do with "it's mental, not spiritual".

 

[Alonik]

The soul part comes from another set of scans where ots stared the soul and mind "ascend" together

Also I do think this very same volume has a scam that says the same too.

Typing on phone so I'm sorry for any confusion from typos

The whole thing is about Soul ascension, the point is that Asmita has ascended his mind to the same dimension as Ilias' soul.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

The soul part comes from another set of scans where ots stared the soul and mind "ascend" together

Also I do think this very same volume has a scam that says the same too.

Typing on phone so I'm sorry for any confusion from typos

It was posted above I'm pretty sure. Again, with all things considered about how it's portrayed in the chapters, the transcending space and time stuff is pretty clearly about the mind. The upgrade to the soul itself the 8th sense has shown is freeing them from the cycle of reincarnation.

It honestly doesn't matter. Whether it's consciousne or spiritual, it doesn't matter.

I'm changing my vote to neutral because I disagree with the OP's arguments that don't directly refute anything, but I also disagree with HDE (5D) for other reasons that the chapters show, but it definitely has nothing to do with "it's mental, not spiritual".

I'm not saying there's nothing spiritual related to the 8th sense, just that particular statement about his thoughts transcending space should only be applied to their minds. The spirituality aspect should be deliberated separately from that statement.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It was posted above I'm pretty sure. Again, with all things considered about how it's portrayed in the chapters, the transcending space and time stuff is pretty clearly about the mind. The upgrade to the soul itself the 8th sense has shown is freeing them from the cycle of reincarnation.

I'm not saying there's nothing spiritual related to the 8th sense, just that particular statement about his thoughts transcending space should only be applied to their minds. The spirituality aspect should be deliberated separately from that statement.

There's statements from other materials bot just the special chapter itself about the relationship between soul and mind with the 8th sense both ascending together is what I mean.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

There's statements from other materials bot just the special chapter itself about the relationship between soul and mind with the 8th sense both ascending together is what I mean.

I don’t disagree that they do both ascend, just saying that each angle has its own aspects. The thoughts transcending space and time part in question, should only be for their minds, and is in reference to the most heightened state his consciousness reached to the point of understanding the world. Just as how 8th souls have their own aspects like being free of the cycle of the reincarnation and existing integrated in the universe, which, doesn’t really have anything to do with transcending space-time.

For what it’s worth, I’m open to discussing whether souls have HDE (4-D, the one thing that could imply 5-D is for their minds) for its own reasons, just not that particular statement. Though I do still stand by the mental plane specifically not being a 5-D realm (literally, the space and time transcendence of the mind even comes as a higher level from the level of mind to perceive that realm).

 

[Khanhba01]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

What are the conclusions?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What are the conclusions?

This seems rejected

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This seems rejected

Still have two team members agreeing and one trying to disagree with the Op