Saint Seiya 8th Sense 5D HDE Removal

[TheUnshakableOne]

Still have two team members agreeing and one trying to disagree with the Op

Could you list who they are and where that's at?

 

[Hasty12345]

Still have two team members agreeing and one trying to disagree with the Op

And 2 agreements isn’t an acceptance

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

At this time, I'm fine with HDE removal.

...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Typing this before I read the OP: I do not guarantee my agreement in commenting. I apologize if this complicates things. I will also apologize the manner with which I'm going to organize my response- I'm going to copy segments of text and reference them until I post another bit. I may not copy all text for this, just what is convenient.


While I agree that it is more likely, based on the translation, that it is using "dimension" more frivolously here than one would expect, I don't agree that a higher-D object appearing in lower-D space would somehow disqualify it from being higher-D. I generally find this evaluation right, though.


Aye, I think that the statement is too vague. Agreed.


To be fair, my assessment is that "dimensions" here is used in terms of "alt dimensions"- other planes of existence, such as the underworld. You are right in that it is scantly evidence for 5-D.


This... is a significantly more complicated issue. Your interpretation isn't guaranteed right or wrong, I can see how this would be taken in the direction of supporting higher-D existence. Overall I would describe myself on neutral on rejecting this point. This may or may not be legitimate.

Overall I think the evidence is shaky enough to remove the rating.

...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

And 2 agreements isn’t an acceptance

Two members are enough to finish anything other than a popular verse (like DB, Naruto, Bleach)

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don’t disagree that they do both ascend, just saying that each angle has its own aspects. The thoughts transcending space and time part in question, should only be for their minds, and is in reference to the most heightened state his consciousness reached to the point of understanding the world. Just as how 8th souls have their own aspects like being free of the cycle of the reincarnation and existing integrated in the universe, which, doesn’t really have anything to do with transcending space-time.

For what it’s worth, I’m open to discussing whether souls have HDE (4-D, the one thing that could imply 5-D is for their minds) for its own reasons, just not that particular statement. Though I do still stand by the mental plane specifically not being a 5-D realm (literally, the space and time transcendence of the mind even comes as a higher level from the level of mind to perceive that realm).

Dude, are you still going to continue this?

 

[Hasty12345]

Two members are enough to finish anything other than a popular verse (like DB, Naruto, Bleach)

Absolutely not

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Dude, are you still going to continue this?

Edit: Yeah, I still stand by the original proposal and all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Absolutely not

He's correct, actually. More controversial verses require more, but for less debated verses such as this'n, two staff members is the listed acceptable amount of evaluations.

 

[Hasty12345]

He's correct, actually. More controversial verses require more, but for less debated verses such as this'n, two staff members is the listed acceptable amount of evaluations.

4 mods can pass a CRT but only 2 is needed to remove it?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

4 mods can pass a CRT but only 2 is needed to remove it?

I mean if we got 4 here it would still be accepted, yes.

 

[Hasty12345]

I mean if we got 4 here it would still be accepted, yes.

I mean the CRT that got this accepted in the first place got 4 mods agreeing but their 4 votes can’t be undone by a CRT with 2 mods.

that makes 0 sense.

mind you, this would also probably be the only tier 1 crt to be acted upon with only 2 staff votes in the entire time I’ve been on the site as far as my knowledge goes as well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean the CRT that got this accepted in the first place got 4 mods agreeing but their 4 votes can’t be undone by a CRT with 2 mods.

that makes 0 sense.

mind you, this would also probably be the only tier 1 crt to be acted upon with only 2 staff votes in the entire time I’ve been on the site as far as my knowledge goes as well.

I'm just relaying the rules to you. Two staff members are sufficient to accept a CRT. If the other CRT received extra acceptance, that's good, but it doesn't just rewrite the rules.

You ought to invite the staff that took part in that thread, if you'd like them to have a voice here.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Sure, I've just slightly changed the proposal due to a newer statement above about the 8th sense above from removing HDE altogether to removing it from the soul and keeping it for the mind.

Ah, on second thought, I take that back. I'm not sure I can compromise keeping it for the mind either. I hadn't really looked into the scan sent above myself that made me consider it and took the time just now.

ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
As for the story, I had it on my mind at the time, that the 8th sense/Aryashiki and dimensional ascension might have something in common. I worked it out/managed without an answer, and it became a hectic and memorable 3 episodes.

The writer doesn't say that the 8th sense actually is dimensional ascension, she simply says that she was thinking about whether it had some similarities, and afterwards literally says that she didn't come up with an answer to that and wrote the story accorddingly. This isn't really any sort of evidence for HDE whatsoever, as it's not equating them in the first place, was merely fleeting speculation from the author who in the end admits she didn't come up with an answer to it.

If anything, this reads as though it works against any concrete portrayal of HDE for the 8th sense. I'm back to my original stance.

 

[Hasty12345]

these rules just make thread manipulation even easier

it would be easier to let this pass then make an upgrade thread and have 2 new staff members agree to it and pass that

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I mean, I've done my best to ask as many admins to comment, I guess the verse is too niche to get traction on a minor topic like this. I'll ask a few more but we'll have to work with what we get.

 

[Hasty12345]

I’m not putting blame on anyone, I’m merely pointing out how silly these rules are.

a downgrade crt made within a month of the initial upgrade crt being accepted should not be able to downgrade the initial upgrade with less staff than what the upgrade got to be accepted.

regardless of this specific situation, the possibility of this happening in principle is ridiculous.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

these rules just make thread manipulation even easier

it would be easier to let this pass then make an upgrade thread and have 2 new staff members agree to it and pass that

It's not really thread manipulation.

Imagine if at one point we had a thread in which two dozen staff said "this is fine" but the basis for it later proved unreliable. So, a CRT is made to change it. Everyone acknowledges it as being wrong, except maybe a couple people, so there is some debate- but all staff unanimously agree. Problem, only 18 staff members speak on it.

It wouldn't even remotely be thread manipulation. Sometimes shit gets reverted, the rules are the way they are to prevent a negative feedback loop in which you need increasing amounts of staff to deal with a verse.

If you feel so strongly about this, go get the staff that agreed with it initially.

 

[Hasty12345]

I couldn’t care less about this specific topic, my care factor for this verse has been drained to nil at this point.

but in general it would be nice if those 24 staff members instead of contributing 2 words into the upgrade attempt and vanishing would actually read the arguments, ask questions and ensure the material satisfies the standards to begin with… but that’s just me

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Executor_No disagrees with the OP

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-8th-sense-5d-hde-removal.154186/post-5802461

DarkDragonMedusa also disagrees with the OP

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-8th-sense-5d-hde-removal.154186/post-5802576

 

[Hasty12345]

So 2 disagrees is enough to say this crt is rejected then right?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So 2 disagrees is enough to say this crt is rejected then right?

The 2 most recent staff agreements after new information debunking the OP was presented. And 1 staff agreeing whom admits he isn't the best source, and he is only going by what is in the OP.

The other staff agreement was someone who mistakenly thought we were talking about the 4D aspect of the verse.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Isn't there only 1 disagree?

So 2 disagrees is enough to say this crt is rejected then right?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Isn't there only 1 disagree?

There is 2. Excutor and DDM

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

There is 2. Excutor and DDM

But Excutor is a calc group.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

But Excutor is a calc group.

Im.mot sure what rules say, but I've seen other threads use calc members votes for staff votes. They do count as honorary staff too if that means anything.

In addition to that,

He's also one of the best and most reliable Translators on the Site which was needed, and he's also among one of the best Tier 1 knowledgeable members/staff on the site which again was also needed.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Former mod disagrees should probably be asked to re-evaluate their position given the new information presented in the thread. A general update on the current OP would also be appreciated

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Edit: Yeah, I still stand by the original proposal and all.

I see, thank you very much for your attention.

He's correct, actually. More controversial verses require more, but for less debated verses such as this'n, two staff members is the listed acceptable amount of evaluations.

thanks for explaining bro

 

[Alonik]

I was asked not to derail this thread with actual context about this, and now this has turned into a "but there are 2 staff agreeing and 2 disagreeing loop", instead of going straight to the arguments. I am neutral on this, but you promised a actual counter argue, right @TheUnshakableOne?

It's controversial. Regardless of popularity.You'll likely need more. Anythibg tier 1 is controversial. Also, there's a team on discord developing a Google doc wprths of counter arguments.

If this thread does not get a proper response, it is clear that the OP is more likely to be right, after all it was thrown several whataboutism at the beginning of it, but no reasonable rebuttal at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Im.mot sure what rules say, but I've seen other threads use calc members votes for staff votes. They do count as honorary staff too if that means anything.

In addition to that,

He's also one of the best and most reliable Translators on the Site which was needed, and he's also among one of the best Tier 1 knowledgeable members/staff on the site which again was also needed.

Calc group members are generally respected enough to speak unless told otherwise but no, they are not evaluating staff. Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats are the three staff groups able to give evaluations and have that be counted when it comes down to "voting".

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I got a,rebuttal coming today. I'm not delaying it aby further. Might be a couple hours as I look for scans, and translation. But it'll for sure happen.

Bit dealing with lots of irl bs

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Calc group members are generally respected enough to speak unless told otherwise but no, they are not evaluating staff. Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats are the three staff groups able to give evaluations and have that be counted when it comes down to "voting".

content mods dont get evaluation rights? considering they deal with the wiki's standards the most, thats a little odd

 

[Mr. Bambu]

content mods dont get evaluation rights? considering they deal with the wiki's standards the most, thats a little odd

I disagree with it, yes. But that is the policy.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Here the OP states that Dimensionality isn't "Additonal axis" of an extra dimension but is just "Dimension" as in a realm or universe.

The reason for this is because The Soul and Mind have a change in their dimensionality when the 8th stage of consciousness is awakened.
So here, the fact that Illias says this as something that applies to all souls (not something exclusive to those who awaken 8th sense) makes it abundantly evident that he's not referring to some literal change in dimensionality, but simply referring to the description in the series of souls ascending to the Underworld (another dimension) after death.

However, this contradicts the OPs own stated perspective of the series


This is because the terminology "Dimension" within the franchise always references a singular spacetime continuum. To give a pretty clear example of that, its here




The 2nd issue with this statement, is that the Underworld is never stated, or called a "Dimension" to my knowledge. So he would have to prove that it is one by the terminology, and standards set within the franchise. As it has always been stated to be a "Plane of existence" or "realm" from the knowledge i remember.

---

The Op stated here that their are souls that have died, and are still 3D in size and being.

There are countless scenes in the series that clearly show us that merely becoming a disembodied soul out of a dead body does that remotely equate to them becoming higher dimensional objects, as they can still be contained within, finite, 3-D spaces and like most interpretations of souls in fiction, are relative in size to their real 3-D bodies. I feel as though this shouldn't even need citations since it's so common knowledge to anyone who knows the slightest about the series, but regardless I'll leave a few notable scenes that showcase this below.

However this is taking something greatly out of context. The "Change in the dimensionality of the soul" comes from because of Hades snatching souls before they can move on into the cycle of samsara. This is because of the uniqueness of Hades Underworld structure. So, no this doens't apply to every soul upon death.

---

Here the OP is saying that "transcendence" requires background information.

by transcending space as well as time which allowed characters to know everything[3].

To quote the wiki standards page again:

A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.
A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.
Click to expand...

And lets look at the translated statement:

It’s…..almost as if something separated from me. Almost as if I knew the workings of the world from the beginning. I, who understand what I am, my thoughts transcend space as well as time. Indeed, I will never be lost…

Very straightforward here. His thoughts transcended space and time (not his being itself), and as he notes in the previous sentence and the what the Wiki standards require, the background context here is that this in reference to him gaining knowledge of the workings of the world. This has absolutely nothing to do with 5-D dimensional transcendence or existence.

However, background context is given but is ignored for the sake of cherry picking. When i made the upgrade thread i understood well that transcendence needed more to it than the word by itself.

---

Here the OP is saying my translation is wrong and is not refferring to a infinite structure being scene as fiction by a finite amount in an attempt to debunk RFD

This allows the users to perceive the Multiverse.[4]

Cool but, this has nothing to do with higher dimensions either. And it says he can perceive multiple dimensions, not multiverse, but it doesn't matter either way.

Ive asked multiple times on this on R/translator and it was translated as "Multiverse" multiple times

---

Here the OP is saying its flowerly language is not literal

It ascends higher escaping the Higher Dimensional membrane of The Universe[2]

This is so grossly out of context it's hard to think where to even begin.

Asmita here is saying that the higher plane Illias was in felt as if it were beyond some thin impenetrable membrane, but now he'd finally reached it. The statement by nature is a metaphorical comparison and not literal, and even if it were literal, he never calls it some higher dimensional membrane or anything like that in the scans, nor does he make any note of the universe. And also, from the above, we already know Illias spiritual existence was in the regular world, and this in reference to his mind/consciousness.

The actual context of this realm that Illias's mind reached and his state of being and how they get there makes it clear this interpretation makes absolutely no sense of it being some 5-D higher spatial dimension or dimensional transcendence to reach it.

To preface this part, I'll note the Wiki standards regarding "higher dimension/plane" statements.

Asmita is describing how this higher dimenisonal separation felt from the universe

and the second half of the paragraph is just wrong the sentence does use 高次元 = literal mathematical higher dimensions and its being used as an adjective to describe (from what i been told) 膜 = a membrane

the third part of "the Universe" comes from the scene of Asmita awakening further into the 8th sense where he gains cosmic awarness.

---

Here it appears the OP is unaware of some supporting feats that suggest the Size of the Soul is more than the multiverse.

As the standards say, it's important to note what exactly is meant here by a "higher dimension" in the context of the setting itself, and should have evidence of being qualitatively superior to the universe, like encompassing it within itself, seeing it as fiction, being a higher state of being. None of this is the case whatsoever here.
SPOILER

Asmita:やはり彼の小宇宙は輪廻を外れ世界にとけ込み生きている
Asmita: After all, his cosmo is out of Samsara (cycle of life and death), blending into the world and living in it.
Asmita: Fue el leo anterior... como lo pense, su cosmos ha salido del ciclo de muerte y resurrection y sigue viviendo en este mundo.
Asmita: It was the previous Leo... as I thought, his cosmo has come out of the cycle of death and resurrection and continues to live on in this world.

From the summary of the chapter courtesy of the translators at SaintSeiyaForos:
Afirma que es el León anterior y que su cosmos está fuera del ciclo de la vida y la muerte, viviendo integrado en el mundo.
He affirms that he is the previous Lion and that his cosmo is outside the cycle of life and death, living integrated into the world.
Click to expand...

So from the following, we are already given direct confirmation that Illias' soul/cosmo continues to exist in the regular world as an integrated part, merely unbound by the cycle of life and death (as others who have awakened 8th sense).
SPOILER

To give a couple examples,

Athena showed her True Soul in Dark Wing Series, and she showed Multiverse awarenenss

in addition to that, Athena in human form was stated to be "infinitesimal" which isn't her true form, but her human form.

Additionally, in the story of LC, Illias's soul is described as "being everywhere."

---

Here the OP states the Dimension is just llusion created by the thoughts of asmita and Sisyphus but this is wrong.

A mental plane created and shaped by the thoughts of Illias, Sisyphos, and Asmita, as stated, and shown through the fight sequences and interactions in it where we see their thoughts shaping said reality (such as Illias' thoughts manifesting a train to ram into Sisyphos and Asmita).

This is ignoring the whole sequence of events and context. Asmita, and Sisphus were not even thinking of Illias at that moment, and it was Illias who created the trap which is blatantly stated.

---

Here the OP contradicts his previous statement

How this dimension was reached:
As stated and shown above, this dimension is reached simply by raising one's consciousness and searching within himself and believing in the respective phenomenon of a world where thoughts create reality. This has absolutely nothing to do with dimensional transcendence whatsoever or breaching some sort of higher dimensional membrane.

according to the OP reaching this mental plane requires raising ones consciousness which then shapes this reality to their thoughts. This is saying letter F comes before the letter A. This is purposeful misordering of events to fit a downgrade narrative.

The contradiction is this. Using the OP's Logic Asmita and Sisyphus needed a reason to raise their consciousness to a level where reality can suddenly start taking a shape to their thoughts. However, hes saying this mental plane came first, and the raising of ones consciousness to create this mental plane came second, but this mental plane is what is needed to see Illias. Thus a contradiciton is created.

however, if the OP loses the contradiction he then loses another point important to his argument. ditching either point is a lose-lose for the OP.

---

Here the OP concludes that RDF isn't being shown accurately

think this is quite self explanatory at this point. The higher dimension statement is in reference to the plane being a higher dimension of thought and consciousness, and isn't remotely some actual physical spatial dimension or an R>F transcendent reality that views the universe as fiction whatsoever, not even close. It's not even inherently real by conventional terms and is shown to be a metaphysical, mental thing, hence why it can be reached simply by raising one's level of consciousness and searching deep within one's mind, which in this case clearly has 0 pertinence to any sort of dimensional transcendence. Especially since we know that even for Illias himself, his actual spiritual existence is still confirmed to be in the regular world, further proving the abstract, mental nature of this world.

however, there is supporting evidence for RDF in the other titles in the franchise.

True Athena in Dark Wing has Shown multiversal awareness and even shown that she knows events happening across other timelines

Alscepius in Next Dimension Stated he can see all movment in all of creation. He even saw Athena moving from one timeline into another

In Requiem the cyclops Shura fought (forgot his name) is able to see the space between dimensions/universes including attacks that travel along it. which means he can see attacks that travel along a 5D Axis. he even knows who that shura was and knows that shura was responsible for the destruction of other worlds.

The Oracle Delphi is implied to be an 8th sense users and even gives us a detailed picture of the multiverse in a simplistic manner

Kairos/Yoma goes on about how "the future" is like a badly written script to himself.

in the manga Hero of Heroes, the Gods are shown percieving each world and their events in a book

You also have Santia Sho with the "Reverse side of world" where Dysmonia can percieve each Universe and look upon their history, and each universe is tiny glittering sparkles to her.

---

Additonally, you have the new evidence of a statement from the Artist, and Co-writer of LC


ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
When it comes to the story, I tried to come up with something in common between the 8th sense (Arayashiki) and dimensional ascension, which was on my mind at the time... I couldn't find an answer for it, but I managed to come up with something in the 3rd story.

I disagree with it, yes. But that is the policy.

Could you retag the staff members to see the new updated counters if possible? Thank you

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Do you mean the ones from the previous thread that have been talked about at length or those who spoke here already?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Do you mean the ones from the previous thread that have been talked about at length or those who spoke here already?

Just the ones who spoke on this thread already. It doesn't appear anyone else is interested here

BTW thank you for helping us out

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus Your presence is requested again to see if the above wall of text changes your stances at all. Might be best to see if rebuttals are given but it would be appreciated so we can move along past this thread.

BTW thank you for helping us out

Aye, no problem.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I can add scans too if they would like me too

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I'm inclined to agree with TheUnshakableOne here

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Here the OP states that Dimensionality isn't "Additonal axis" of an extra dimension but is just "Dimension" as in a realm or universe.



However, this contradicts the OPs own stated perspective of the series


This is because the terminology "Dimension" within the franchise always references a singular spacetime continuum. To give a pretty clear example of that, its here




The 2nd issue with this statement, is that the Underworld is never stated, or called a "Dimension" to my knowledge. So he would have to prove that it is one by the terminology, and standards set within the franchise. As it has always been stated to be a "Plane of existence" or "realm" from the knowledge i remember.

Did you seriously just fish through nearly 9 months of the discussion thread to use an old post to refute something here?

At any rate, I don't see how that contradicts what I'm arguing here at all? It's not even remotely related. That was about whether the UW is a 2-C construct, this has absolutely no relation to the dimensionality of 8th sense souls in question here.

A different plane of existence, realm, different dimension, same thing. Also I believe @Alonik mentioned a scan about the Underworld being stated to be a subspace, so yeah.

The Op stated here that their are souls that have died, and are still 3D in size and being.



However this is taking something greatly out of context. The "Change in the dimensionality of the soul" comes from because of Hades snatching souls before they can move on into the cycle of samsara. This is because of the uniqueness of Hades Underworld structure. So, no this doens't apply to every soul upon death.

That's stated nowhere in the chapter in any of Illias' explanation, all due respect, you're making stuff and fabricating context here.

If anything, the little context we do have in regards to that statement made actually completely goes against this interpretation.

Sisyphos: Hmm... es realmente mi hermano mayor... pero Rasgado y Regulus... dijeron que estaba muerto...
Sisyphos: Hmm... it's really my older brother... but Hasgard and Regulus
Ilias: ... Ciertamente
¿Pero desde qué perspectiva estás hablando?
Illias: Certainly. But from what perspective are you speaking?

These are the lines that directly precede Illias making that statement. Illias brings it up as a new perspective for Sispyhos to consider in regards to whether he"s really "dead" from a ideological standpoint. Illias isn't in the Underworld nor is he talking about the 8th sense.

The fact that he isn't even talking about the 8th sense specifically in itself makes using this as evidence for 8th sense users specifically HDE nill, btw.

Here the OP is saying that "transcendence" requires background information.



However, background context is given but is ignored for the sake of cherry picking. When i made the upgrade thread i understood well that transcendence needed more to it than the word by itself.

Yet the upgrade thread doesn't give any of said background information that falls under the HDE standards.

Here the OP is saying my translation is wrong and is not refferring to a infinite structure being scene as fiction by a finite amount in an attempt to debunk RFD



Ive asked multiple times on this on R/translator and it was translated as "Multiverse" multiple times

Your own sources are literally telling you it just means multiple dimensions as far as wording goes and could perhaps be used to refer to a multiverse, which would be from a contextual standpoint. But the wording used is not something unanimous for multiversal at all.

There isn't the slightest modicum of context in the chapters to even hint it was referring to the multiverse here.

And in the other link, you asked a question about a different term from a different series (G Requiem) from a different writer and a different term with different context. Ignoring that.

Here the OP is saying its flowerly language is not literal



Asmita is describing how this higher dimenisonal separation felt from the universe

and the second half of the paragraph is just wrong the sentence does use 高次元 = literal mathematical higher dimensions and its being used as an adjective to describe (from what i been told) 膜 = a membrane

the third part of "the Universe" comes from the scene of Asmita awakening further into the 8th sense where he gains cosmic awarness.

This doesn't really address my point. The membrane part is completely metaphorical, and I've already gone in detail as to why the higher dimension part doesn't meet the standards to be in reference to a literal higher spatial dimension.

And no, 次元 is not exclusively higher mathematical dimension in any case.. what? It's also used as how "different dimension" is used in english, literal infinite examples for this. I'm sure you know this as well as me so I'm confused as to why you'd even argue this.

But the 8th sense part is completely unrelated to the mental plane, I went over this in detail in the OP. And since you mention it, as I noted above in the OP, if anything, it completely contradicts the notion that the mental plane transcends spacetime.

Though I do still stand by the mental plane specifically not being a 5-D realm (literally, the space and time transcendence of the mind even comes as a higher level from the level of mind to perceive that realm).

Here it appears the OP is unaware of some supporting feats that suggest the Size of the Soul is more than the multiverse.



To give a couple examples,

Athena showed her True Soul in Dark Wing Series, and she showed Multiverse awarenenss

in addition to that, Athena in human form was stated to be "infinitesimal" which isn't her true form, but her human form.

Additionally, in the story of LC, Illias's soul is described as "being everywhere."

The Dark Wing example has literally nothing to do with her soul being the size of universes, it's implied to be because her soul perhaps reincarnates between universes, with the way she talks in first person.

Spoiler

In any case, at absolute best, it's just cosmic awareness, and that doesn't equate to having a soul that covers everything, which is ridiculous and non sequitur.

Cosmic Awareness

Cosmic Awareness is the ability to observe phenomena and be aware of events on a cosmic scale, though the specifics may vary. Users of Cosmic Awareness can often sense others and detect potential threats across an interstellar, galactic, or even universal scale, with the greatest of users being...

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As for the Illias thing, where? As far as I remember, the first chapter literally shows otherwise with Asmita saying that he had to actually make a journey to Earth.

Asmita: El leon nos llama desde el viento. El emprendio finalmente el viaje a la tierra.
Asmita: The lion calls us from the wind. He's finally made his journey to Earth.

Spoiler

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Here the OP states the Dimension is just llusion created by the thoughts of asmita and Sisyphus but this is wrong.



This is ignoring the whole sequence of events and context. Asmita, and Sisphus were not even thinking of Illias at that moment, and it was Illias who created the trap which is blatantly stated.

Mind pointing to anywhere where I ever even said or implied it's an illusion? That's a strawman to my argument.

I said it's created and perceived by their thoughts and effectively in their heads/consciousness. That is true, that is a fact directly stated as cited in the OP.

Asmita: I finally managed to reach his cosmos. This space is a battlefield for thoughts. As so, you have to ascend to the level of his consciousness.
Illias: It's your array of thoughts within my array of my thoughts...

Sisyphos: Yes, this is the world where the intense thoughts of Lord Ilias are realized/come true. In other words, a world where I must believe in this phenomenon in order for it to come true.

Sisyphos: This is Ilias' space. The intense thoughts and desires of Mr. Ilias materialize. I have to sharpen my senses and search deeper within myself. In other words, a space that is unreachable unless a phenomenon is reproduced.

Denying this is the only ignorance of context here.

And this doesn't necessarily mean it's an illusion or not real, since fiction, especially Saint Seiya here, treats the mind in very esoteric ways.

However, it still stands as a point and context that works against assuming it's a higher spatial dimension/R>F reality.

Here the OP contradicts his previous statement



according to the OP reaching this mental plane requires raising ones consciousness which then shapes this reality to their thoughts. This is saying letter F comes before the letter A. This is purposeful misordering of events to fit a downgrade narrative.

Raising their consciousness is what allows them to perceive and shape the realm, yeah. It works hand in hand.

We clearly see that with Asmita being able to shape the realm himself and create his own thought territory after going there (already demonstrated in the OP). If it were just Illias' thoughts able to affect it, maybe you'd have a a point.

The contradiction is this. Using the OP's Logic Asmita and Sisyphus needed a reason to raise their consciousness to a level where reality can suddenly start taking a shape to their thoughts. However, hes saying this mental plane came first, but this mental plane is what is needed to see Illias. Thus a contradiciton is created.

however, if the OP loses the contradiction he then loses another point important to his argument. ditching either point is a lose-lose for the OP.

It's not a contradiction. It came first because Illias' thoughts were what initially created the realm. This doesn't effect my point whatsoever.

Here the OP concludes that RDF isn't being shown here



however, there is supporting evidence in the other titles in the franchise.

So then I take it you acknowledge that the chapters themselves and by this specific author don't have any context for RDF here, considering you immediately turn to completely different series by completely different authors already.

True Athena in Dark Wing has Shown multiversal awareness and even shown that she knows events happening across other timelines

Alscepius in Next Dimension Stated he can see all movment in all of creation. He even saw Athena moving from one timeline into another

In Requiem the cyclops Shura fought (forgot his name) is able to see the space between dimensions/universes including attacks that travel along it. which means he can see attacks that travel along a 5D Axis. he even knows who that shura was and knows that shura was responsible for the destruction of other worlds.

The Oracle Delphi is implied to be an 8th sense users and even gives us a detailed picture of the multiverse in a simplistic manner

Kairos/Yoma goes on about how "the future" is like a badly written script to himself.

in the manga Hero of Heroes, the Gods are shown percieving each world and their events in a book

You also have Santia Sho with the "Reverse side of world" where Dysmonia can percieve each Universe and look upon their history, and each universe is tiny glittering sparkles to her.

Cosmic Awareness

Cosmic Awareness is the ability to observe phenomena and be aware of events on a cosmic scale, though the specifics may vary. Users of Cosmic Awareness can often sense others and detect potential threats across an interstellar, galactic, or even universal scale, with the greatest of users being...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The ability to observe phenomena and be aware of events on a cosmic scale, though the specifics may vary. Users of Cosmic Awareness can often sense others and detect potential threats across an interstellar, galactic, or even universal scale, with the greatest of users being so tuned in that they can feel out even the specifics of molecular movements across such distances. Cosmic Awareness is associated with both Clairvoyance and Enhanced Senses and acts as a combination of the two that takes it to a much higher scale, allowing users to observe others from across the universe and "hear" things across such distances.

That's what most of that is.

And half of that literally isn't even related to the 8th sense, which is what's in question here. Like the examples with the gods, or Dysomnia, who could see universes like that because of the specific place she and Shaka were in (a place where all universes converged), not because of her own abiliites or anything like that. The cyclops thing completely lacks context and there's nothing indicating it's related to the 8th sense either.

And I'm 99% sure the gods in Hero of Heroes in question aren't even the Saint Seiya gods as it's a crossover between various series (it's eyebrow raising that this would even be considered canon, but whatever), but reading a book that has recorded information isn't any sort of feat for them. And again, completely unrelated to the 8th sense.

Additonally, you have the new evidence of a statement from the Artist, and Co-writer of LC


ネタとしては、 その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは...というものを、答えのないまま捻り出すという、 なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました。
When it comes to the story, I tried to come up with something in common between the 8th sense (Arayashiki) and dimensional ascension, which was on my mind at the time... I couldn't find an answer for it, but I managed to come up with something in the 3rd story.

Already gone over this above, this translation's off after I've looked into it.

To address the relevant parts:
"その時やたらと頭にあった、阿頼耶識と次元上昇って何かしら共通点があるのでは
This does not say that she tried to come up with something in common, but that she simply contemplated whether it did since it was on her mind. As she literally says afterward, she literally worked out the story without an answer to that.
"なかなかバタバタとした想い出の3話となりました"
This is not at all what this says. This says "It became a hectic and memorable 3 episodes/episode 3 (ambiguous due to how JP works with plurals, but the context from the previous sentence of her working out the story without an answer seems to favor 3 episodes). These phrases are all separated by commas and are independent of each other.
バタバタ= hectic
想い出の3話= memorable 3 episodes
なりました= became;result in, etc.

Nowhere does any part of what she says mentioning coming up with an answer, and on the contrary she literally outright says she didn't right before.
"答えのないまま捻り出すという"
I worked it out without an answer.
答えのない= without an answer
捻り出す= worked out; thought up, etc.

As for my thoughts on this:

The writer doesn't say that the 8th sense actually is dimensional ascension, she simply says that she was thinking about whether it had some similarities, and afterwards literally says that she didn't come up with an answer to that and wrote the story accorddingly. This isn't really any sort of evidence for HDE whatsoever, as it's not equating them in the first place, was merely fleeting speculation from the author who in the end admits she didn't come up with an answer to it.

If anything, this reads as though it works against any concrete portrayal of HDE for the 8th sense.