Sailor moon star seed downgrade

[Theglassman12]

Looking at this thread and this blog, there’s a lot of things wrong here in regards to the abilities granted by star seeds. The entire explanation for Conceptual manipulation doesn’t remotely talk about any fundamental concept that’s the form of star seeds. Tuxedo’s argument of being erased, resulting in his daughter being erased to has nothing to do with conceptual Manipulation, that’s just a time paradox happening, nothing about this or the whole “future self is unaffected by his past being changed” has anything to do with conceptual manipulation.

Information manipulation has no basis whatsoever as nothing about this literally controlling information itself, just power modification, corruption and blessing (which btw has no scans for most of this whatsoever).

What part of your body being destroyed from removing a star seed has anything to do with biological hax? Literally nothing about this is bio hax and instead is just a result of removing someone’s star seeds.

Soul hax doesn’t have any scans whatsoever and again, removing a star seed resulting in someone’s soul being destroyed sounds like an after effect of the seed itself rather than directly controlling the soul.

Same with both Power nullification and energy manipulation having no scans whatsoever and a bare bones explanation to remotely explain anything on how Star seeds works. All in all these things needs to be removed from the pages or needs a massive rework in general.

 

[Eseseso]

Sure

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Concept sounds more like acausal and probability, Info doesn't really sound like info but more to corruption, Bio, soul, power null, and energy kinda need scans to show more as its very barebones (like power null with this statement: A sailor senshi is able to regenerate from their star seeds, however one can prevent that from happening.).

So I think there needs to be scans at least or a rework with which ability they correspond to.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Only looking at the blog for an easier time of reading:

Concept Manip definitely sounds more like something related to acausality and probability, maybe even life manipulation but that might somehow be a stretch though it is said to be the source of all life so...maybe.

The info manip part is definitely just corruption and blessing related, and everything else has next to no scans justifying them.

Assuming any of these ARE legit, they do need to have the scans that tell of them as said. Otherwise, I agree in having them removed and just linking the abilities to ones that relate to them the most until that is covered.

 

[CodeCCLL]

This much, much worse than I thought.

 

[Wikisource]

Well, this really happened.

 

[Wikisource]

Starseeds are possibilities and the source of all life and all celestial objects, and the source of all abilities in the verse. They are the fundamental aspect of everything in the verse.

The source of something not really a concept. It's same like human is the source of all objects they made but this doesn't mean they are concept. I think this maybe a limited causality manipulation or nothing...

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Welp, A rework is definitely required, EIther way, I agree with this CRT.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, the CRT largely makes sense. I'm willing to let some of the scans be supplied but if not, then these powers should be removed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I will reply later with counter arguments.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The source of something not really a concept. It's same like human is the source of all objects they made but this doesn't mean they are concept. I think this maybe a limited causality manipulation or nothing...

I will make a bigger post later to address OP’s concerns but I just want to quickly refute this:

If you destroy humans, the things they create do not disappear. If you destroy starseeds, the things they give form, disappear from reality across history.

Your analogy doesn’t fit here.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The entire explanation for Conceptual manipulation doesn’t remotely talk about any fundamental concept that’s the form of star seeds.

Star seeds are the concepts. They are the abstract fundamental aspect that gives everything form.

And before it is stated, no where in the Conceptual Manipulation page state that concepts or their equivalence have to be general. They can be specific and individualized.

Tuxedo’s argument of being erased, resulting in his daughter being erased to has nothing to do with conceptual Manipulation, that’s just a time paradox happening, nothing about this or the whole “future self is unaffected by his past being changed” has anything to do with conceptual manipulation.

You are taking this out if context. I urge you to address the conceptual manipulation page. It has everything to do with conceptual manipulation.

From the page:

In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Killing Tuxedo Mask (the form) did not have an affect on his future self or his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Destroying Tuxedo’s starseed (the concept) did have an affect on his future self and erased his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Does this example not fit what is described as a characteristic of Type 1 Concepts? Yes or No? If No, why not?

Information manipulation has no basis whatsoever as nothing about this literally controlling information itself, just power modification, corruption and blessing (which btw has no scans for most of this whatsoever).

Again, I urge you to first address the Information Manipulation page.

It says here:

These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims

Starseeds are the fundamental building blocks of reality.

Sailor Galaxia manipulates the star seeds to rewrite the properties of the senshi.

What part of your body being destroyed from removing a star seed has anything to do with biological hax? Literally nothing about this is bio hax and instead is just a result of removing someone’s star seeds.

Soul hax doesn’t have any scans whatsoever and again, removing a star seed resulting in someone’s soul being destroyed sounds like an after effect of the seed itself rather than directly controlling the soul.

Star seeds give form, that form would include body, soul, mind. Manipulating Star seeds would allow one to alter one’s soul, body, and mind. That is the case with Galaxia doing such with the senshi.

Perhaps writing it as: Biological, Mind, and Soul Manipulation via information Manipulation would be more accurate and avoid confusion.

Same with both Power nullification and energy manipulation having no scans whatsoever and a bare bones explanation to remotely explain anything on how Star seeds works. All in all these things needs to be removed from the pages or needs a massive rework in general.

Starseeds are also the source of power. If you take someone’s star seed, you are also taking away their power.

Senshi can regenerate from their star seeds. Galaxia is actively preventing them from doing so. Here is a scene of them trying to regenerate before Galaxia destroys their form:



Star Seeds are unique mechanic to Sailor Moon but this wiki has historically equated them to Type 1 concepts and information because they fall under and adhere to the standards and requirements of both abilities. This is a regular practice for indexing unique verse-specific abilities.

 

[Wikisource]

I will make a bigger post later to address OP’s concerns but I just want to quickly refute this:

If you destroy humans, the things they create do not disappear. If you destroy starseeds, the things they give form, disappear from reality across history.

Your analogy doesn’t fit here.

From what I said, that not kind of argument can be used. Destroy something and another one gived form by its disappear seems like a "domino effect". But I will stop and leave it to Glassman.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

From what I said, that not kind of argument can be used. Destroy something and another one gived form by its disappear seems like a "domino effect". But I will stop and leave it to Glassman.

I will just say that’s literally the case for all type 1 concepts and is one of the requirements on the conceptual manipulation page.

 

[Wikisource]

I will just say that’s literally the case for all type 1 concepts and is one of the requirements on the conceptual manipulation page.

Well, the most important here is concept that shape the reality, which I doesn't see here. About keep something exist, it can be many things.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well, the most important here is concept that shape the reality, which I doesn't see here. About keep something exist, it can be many things.

That's literally what star seeds do. They're the source of everything in existence and give shape to everything in reality. Without them, nothing would exist.

 

[Vietthai96]

They are the abstract fundamental aspect that gives everything form.

Tbh, you don't need to be abstract concept to given form to something

Does this example not fit what is described as a characteristic of Type 1 Concepts? Yes or No? If No, why not?

It also fit into multiple other abilities, effects, why it must be concept. Abilities, haxes are varies, which can overlap and can achieve similar result, why it must only be hax A or hax B???

Star seeds give form, that form would include body, soul, mind. Manipulating Star seeds would allow one to alter one’s soul, body, and mind. That is the case with Galaxia doing such with the senshi.

Not try to be a shitty person, but why it must be info 2 and not other abilities??, there are multiple ways, abilities that can change one properties, why it must be info 2??

Well, the most important here is concept that shape the reality, which I doesn't see here. About keep something exist, it can be many things.

Tbf here, you don't really need concept to shape reality, or else i could argue many thing to be concepts

Star Seeds are unique mechanic to Sailor Moon but this wiki has historically equated them to Type 1 concepts and information

Historically, it was conceptual only (i don't remember what type) before not info, and it was removed

All and all, aside from the lack of scan, your arguments are based on: the starseed can change this properties, shape and influence that form. And then you make a comparison with the effects that concept and info 2 can achieves, which are similar thus you come into conclusion that the starseed must be concept and info 2 at the same time

Well, idrc much, but at least personally i think you should put scans on the page first, the lack of scans make the page look terrible and people could well say that all those empty words is just headcanon

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Tbh, you don't need to be abstract concept to given form to something

Give us an example of such a thing.

It also fit into multiple other abilities, effects, why it must be concept. Abilities, haxes are varies, which can overlap and can achieve similar result, why it must only be hax A or hax B???

Not try to be a shitty person, but why it must be info 2 and not other abilities??, there are multiple ways, abilities that can change one properties, why it must be info 2??

If an ability can fit A, B, and C then it should be indexed as A, B, and C. Why should it be indexed as only A or B or C? Especially if A, B, and C are not mutually exclusive.

your arguments are based on: the starseed can change this properties, shape and influence that form. And then you make a comparison with the effects that concept and info 2 can achieves, which are similar thus you come into conclusion that the starseed must be concept and info 2 at the same time

That's not my argument at all.

The arguments are star seeds fit the requirements for Type 1 Concepts and Type 2 Information. No one has actually provided arguments that says contrary.

People keep saying "it lacks scans" but no one has stated for which requirement do I lack scans for? What specifically are you asking me to prove? What requirement from Concept Manipulation Page and the Information Manipulation Page are you not seeing?

 

[Wikisource]

Tbf here, you don't really need concept to shape reality, or else i could argue many thing to be concepts

That's a way to prove it, btw

 

[Theglassman12]

@Iamunanimousinthat you got any scans to prove that they are concepts? Saying they are without proving it isn't helping your case when one of my biggest gripes with your own blog is the scans are almost nonexistent with explaining most of the star seeds properties.

Literally what part of erasing his concept (assuming that's what a star seed which you haven't proven btw) remotely makes this a type 1 concept? Literally nothing here remotely mentions this being a concept, just that it causes someone in the future to die a la a time paradox.

Again, what part of this is anyway shape or form information hax? You can quote the page all you want but it can also just be literally anything else like corruption given the senshi turns evil with this argument. The burden of proof is on you that they're referring to information hax specifically and not any other random ability.

No it wouldn't given again, this has no bearing to be information hax, let alone bio and soul hax as they're not directly affecting them, plus again. No scans for these so it makes it hard for me to take these seriously.

That's not power nullification to remove the source of their power. That's a weakness more than anything, if it's actually power null, they'd literally nullify the star seed in question to leave them powerless. This is the equivalent of taking away the batteries off a device and leaving it powerless with the lack of energy as opposed to directly shutting down the source.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Literally what part of erasing his concept (assuming that's what a star seed which you haven't proven btw) remotely makes this a type 1 concept? Literally nothing here remotely mentions this being a concept, just that it causes someone in the future to die a la a time paradox.

Again. That's not my argument. I'm just going to re-copy it again, for you to actually address it:

You are taking this out if context. I urge you to address the conceptual manipulation page. It has everything to do with conceptual manipulation.

From the page:

In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Killing Tuxedo Mask (the form) did not have an affect on his future self or his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Destroying Tuxedo’s starseed (the concept) did have an affect on his future self and erased his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Does this example not fit what is described as a characteristic of Type 1 Concepts? Yes or No? If No, why not?

Again, what part of this is anyway shape or form information hax? You can quote the page all you want but it can also just be literally anything else like corruption given the senshi turns evil with this argument. The burden of proof is on you that they're referring to information hax specifically and not any other random ability.

The pages detail the exact requirements for Type 1 concepts and fundamental information.

Star Seeds are recognized as Type 1 concepts because they meet the requirements for Type 1 Concepts. Your arguments are literally just feelings. What requirements have I not proven? Please be specific:

Spoiler: Concepts

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept."

These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts.

Starseeds are possibilities and the source of all life and all celestial objects, and the source of all abilities in the verse. They are the fundamental aspect of everything in the verse.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern

Even though star seeds pertain to the thing they form, they can be taken and used independently. The Sailor Animamates took the Sailor Crystals of dead Sailor Senshi and used it to power themselves. If star seeds were dependent on their forms, they would disappear when those forms are destroyed or erased. (Sailor Crystals are "super" star seeds for those who don't know)

the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence

When Tuxedo Kamen was pushed into the galaxy cauldron and his star seed was destroyed. Chibi-Usa, his daughter from the future, was immediately erased from history, meaning everything that was dependent on him ceased to exist.

the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

When Tuxedo Kamen was erased in the past, his future self was still alive in the future and his daughter, Chibi-Usa, was unaffected by her father dying in the past

Star Seeds are recognized as Fundamental Information because they meet the requirement for fundamental information. The Information page defines Type 2 as the fundamental building blocks of reality. This is what star seeds are also within the verse.

Your argument that "it can be anything else" isn't a logical argument. You can use conceptual manipulation to corrupt beings. Special Verse techniques and abilities don't need to be called X to be indexed as X in the wiki. If they meet the requirements of X, then they should be treated so.

If an attack called "raging water" electrocutes a victim, I can index it as electricity manipulation, even though the attack isn't called raging thunder or raging lightning.