Sage Mode Naruto Scaling

[AstralKing7]

@Omimi; I'm not going to argue about it in this thread. I'm just stating my viewpoint on it that trying to scale the majority of the verse based on ranking is ridiculous when characters have their own feats.

It's like trying to say that every Jonin character is equal to War Arc Kakashi because he's a Jonin.

Or every Kage is as strong as Hashirama or Tobirama because they're Kages.

Or every Genin in the Chunin Exams must be equal to Neji, because he was a Genin.

Reason why we don't scale them to characters who are obviously portrayed above them. This is literally the definition of case by case plus you wanna go against WOG with nothing contradicting it. We wouldn't scale everyone to kakashi like why? Especially not Neji lmfao why would we do that???

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; seems like you're agreeing with me that scaling purely off of rank is a bad idea.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@SirLance

It isn't nonsense. Shukaku is no where close to being as strong as the other tailed beasts, Gyuki and Kurama especially. I'd even be inclined to say the Tailed beast cloaked Naruto and Bee are superior to Shukaku as a whole because of that (That, and Gyuki cloaked Bee was able to physically propell his own tailed beast bomb through a 30 layered barrier set up by the barrier corps, IIRC).

Scaling Shukaku to hurting Madara either makes Madara less impressive or makes that feat for Shukaku the outlier.

 

[Metalija]

To be fair Shukaku hurting Madara was done by Gaara and Shukaku working together, and Madara was kinda suppresing himself so that feat is not that crazy

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm point taken.

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; seems like you're agreeing with me that scaling purely off of rank is a bad idea.

Sorry I actually agree with it. I do see where you're coming from but we simply know that some of these characters are literally special cases like Neji, Kakashi, Gaara and Itachi and Minato and Might Guy. We wouldn't scale them to the lot

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing; I can understand that position but likewise I would not try to scale a feat from the patriarch of the strongest clan in Konoha to other Jonins in the series, unless there was good reason to scale them besides rank.

 

[M3X_2.0]

> At least one of them was made by Hiashi who is a fodder (Fodder because... most of the cast would scale).
There are very few characters who directly scale to Hiashi as far as I'm aware.

> There is Lee's 810 Megatons feat for destroying a meteor in The Last.

I believe that calc still needs updating.

Direclty, yes. Now think the amount of characters who would scale from a character who already scale. A chain scale. It will scale to most of the cast anyway

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@SirLance

It isn't nonsense.

Well yes it isn't nonsense because... You said so? He's the weakest by so much that a whatever summon is comparable to him and that's it? Despite hurting Madara "who was suppressing himself"? Kukui, if you are gonna say such nonsense, actually have something to back it up.

Madara was stronger than when he was in his prime, stronger even than his Edo, so much stronger that he just ripped apart Hashirama's Tori gates, and then became even more powerful by absorbing Sage Chakra. Then he rushed the tailed beasts with the full intent to capture then. Where the hell do you even see "suppressed" in this? What does Gaara's "help" does when Gaara simply gathered the sand and Shukaku was the one to use his wind jutsu to propel it at Madara?

Jesus Christ, if you are even attempting to argue about this, make me think you know the series.

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing; I can understand that position but likewise I would not try to scale a feat from the patriarch of the strongest clan in Konoha to other Jonins in the series, unless there was good reason to scale them besides rank.

Wait what's going on again? Strongest clan?? I didn't read this whole thread but what clan is scaling to who?? Also if it's the Uchiha then I wouldn't agree cause I'm pretty sure the Hyuga is the strongest but still I I agree I wouldn't scale the strongest clan to anyone. Unless it's an average genin like Hinata or Obito

 

[M3X_2.0]

It is Hiashi

 

[Metalija]

@SirLance

It isn't nonsense.

Well yes it isn't nonsense because... You said so? He's the weakest by so much that a whatever summon is comparable to him and that's it? Despite hurting Madara "who was suppressing himself"? Kukui, if you are gonna say such nonsense, actually have something to back it up.
Madara was stronger than when he was in his prime, stronger even than his Edo, so much stronger that he just ripped apart Hashirama's Tori gates, and then became even more powerful by absorbing Sage Chakra. Then he rushed the tailed beasts with the full intent to capture then. Where the hell do you even see "suppressed" in this? What does Gaara's "help" does when Gaara simply gathered the sand and Shukaku was the one to use his wind jutsu to propel it at Madara?

Jesus Christ, if you are even attempting to argue about this, make me think you know the series.

Don't use that condenscending tone with me, I said that Madara was "suppressing" himself because if he wasn't then that means that Shukaku is High 6-A which is even bigger bullshit than Gamabunta being 6-C. I am not saying thats what surely happened, i am just trying to make sense of all these inconsistencies.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It is not a condescending tone, I am just very honest about the fact he was claiming stuff without any backing up. And no, revived Madara without his rinnegan and amped by sage chakra is not High 6-A, he was heavily damaged when all the tailed attacked him with a combo tail slam.

 

[Metalija]

I was claiming High 6-A because he broke the Deity Gates, but don't worry I don't actually believe that blind Madara is High 6-A, I was just trying to prove a point. Anyway, I think that downgrading Gamabunta makes way more sense then buffing SM Naruto and Deva path.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@SirLance

First of all, enough with the condescending tone. You can be honest and not complain about every single freaking time I have a different view about something you have. No offense, but it's getting very annoying. Second of all, I never said "it isnt nonsense because I said so". I said it isn't nonsense because of Shukaku being the weakest of the tailed beasts by far.

Using "Madara was stronger than he was in his prime" as an argument doesn't help you. It hurts you more than anything since it just means even more that Shukaku doing anything to Madara is what's the outlier here. Especially when Madara can physically tussle with the other tailed beasts.

I don't agree with downgrading Gama, at least to not anything lower than "Possibly 6-C" or "likely far higher". Gama wasn't able to do anything to Shukaku except match Shukaku's casual air bullet attacks (so not even a biju bomb) and temporarily restrain him physically. So Gama doesn't even rival Shukaku.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mitch and Damage

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You can have a different view about stuff, but it is tiring that you are recriminating my points while not even seemingly remembering the scenes in question. When is it ever said he's the weakest by far? Where? By who? What ever even gave that impression? Making statements without backing is nonsense. Deciding to agree with the notion that a Madara that could survive being attacked by all the bijuu at once, was completely serious in rushing them to recapture them, yet "was suppressed" is even bigger nonsense.

Madara is never shown ever engaging a single tailed beast physically without a jutsu or without Susano'o before he is revived. He battled Hashirama, then came back with Kurama under his control. How is it an outlier for a bijuu to be comparable to the other Bijuu, even if a bit weaker? So Shukaku manages to hurt a little a dude that survives all 9 bijuu smacking him with their tails, yet you think a battle with Gamabunta, back when Shukaku was described as an ancient, corrupted monk or some such makes more reason. Despite hurting Madara and being treated like a nuclear bomb like the other Bijuu, and blocking a senjutsu chakra enhanced Susano'o sword. And you ask why I find this logic laughable at best.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Seems like Sage Mode Naruto could end up as 6-C but not by scaling to Shukaku, also there are doubts that Gamabunta scales to Shukaku seems like

This seems beyond what I initially proposed now

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That has more to do with the apparent upgrades everyone is gonna have, but can only wait for the calcs of these feats, whichever they are, and whatever context make them scale to everyone.

 

[Damage3245]

Looks like there is no specific action that needs to be done until the proper AP revisions take place.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245

What AP revisions?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Seems like some AP revisions are being organized and left for the future for Naruto, similar to the speed revisions done before. I imagine they'd be waiting for the move towards the new platform since that is coming soon and doing a big revision like that would be annoying with that being so close.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; just like how a major speed revision took place for the Naurot verse recently (spread over four threads and affecting the majority of the characters), there are some major AP revisions being planned with several revised calcs and updated justifications for characters.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@SirLance

I don't particularly care if it's tiring to you. It's not my problem that you are somehow unable to keep things civil when facing an opposing point. If a mistake is made, simply point it out and be done with it. Not speak condescendingly.

Kurama himself said that the Gyuki was the second strongest tailed beast after him via the number of tails in the war. Going off of that, Shukaku would be the weakest out of them all by a lot. Not to mention, the other tailed beasts have much better feats, Kurama and Gyuki in particular. Half of Kurama by himself matched the power of 6 pooled together Biju bombs from the other tailed beasts. Shukaku has done nothing but lose to non-tailed beast threats.

I didn't argue Madara was surpressed. Metalija did.

Because he isn't a "bit weaker". See above. And Gamabunta's scaling is much more acceptable. All Gama did, again, was match casual attacks from Shukaku. Your suggesting Shukaku can harm someone who overpowered all of the bijuu at once.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am keeping things civil, I don't know why pointing out that you are arguing things factually despite seemingly not remembering details is nonsense lacks civility. I contested the statement, you stuck to it, there was no explanation why, I called that nonsense and asked you to back it up. Pretty simple. I also said "deciding to agree with the notion", not that you formulated the idea.

Yes, they are stronger. It doesn't change that they are all comparable. All of what you are saying simply means Kurama scales above them, which has nothing to do with Shukaku being comparable but weaker.

And you seemingly found no fault with it despite arguing this, making me doubt how much of these chapters you remember.

Yes, that is what I am suggesting, especially because the bijuu could hurt him, Shukaku in particular took a serious hit from his Susano'o, and he never overpowered them all at once. Limbo did, which is a singular thing giving singular strikes but the Bijuu can't sense it so they could do nothing about it. Worse is scaling Gamabunta to Shukaku, despite getting one shot by something below the Bijuu and nothing indicating Shukaku was being "casual". Dude was literally bloodlusted and eager to kill.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage

Okay. Noted.

@All

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

 

[NotCensored]

KCM Naruto had trouble with Version 2 Jinchürikis.
Why would KCM struggle against a weaker version of the Bijüs, while he is Bijü level? (KCM is > SM)

Version 2 Jinchuuriki amped by Obito's Rinnegan and Sharingan's....

 

[NotCensored]

Bijuus have been extremely inconsistent even before the war. So, I don't think Gamabunta kept up with Shukaku is something to be considered.
Matatabi being beaten by Hidan and Kakuzu is also inconsistent, unless we need to scale Kakashi Immortal Arc and others at 6-C.

Generally speaking ... Need more recent and more consistent information...

Matatabi being beaten by Hidan and Kakuzu isn't inconsistent Akatsuki members are literally strong enough to fight perfect Jinchuuriki thats literally the requirement to join and a plot point for literally most of Shippuden.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except that's just Kishimoto being awfully confused since the power level for the beasts hadn't been cemented.

Or are you seriously saying there's no logical incongruity in Pre-Sage Mode Naruto hurting a dude that can battle complete bijuus, making him as strong as his KCM mode, despite the fact he's below Sage Mode and therefore below the stronger KCM? Is like these nonsensical circular scaling lines don't register.

 

[NotCensored]

Except that's just Kishimoto being awfully confused since the power level for the beasts hadn't been cemented.
Or are you seriously saying there's no logical incongruity in Pre-Sage Mode Naruto hurting a dude that can battle complete bijuus, making him as strong as his KCM mode, despite the fact he's below Sage Mode and therefore below the stronger KCM? Is like these nonsensical circular scaling lines don't register.

Pre-Sage Mode Naruto only damaged Kakuzu with an S-Rank damn near hax Jutsu that ignores conventional durability to an extent the same Jutsu that later damaged the strongest Bijuu and Kakazu only beat the 2 Tails literally one of the weakest Tailed Beasts where as Sage Mode Naruto could keep up with the 9 Tails for a short while and even the guy who beat up the 8 Tails so no it wouldn't make him as strong as KCM and the scaling wouldn't be circular.

It would be more like if anything 2 Tails = Kakazu = Base Naruto with Rasenshuriken < Sage Mode < KCM = Jinchuuriki amped by Obito

^ Obviously this is more of an abridged version but you should get the gist of what I'm saying

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Naruto didn't "hurt" Kakuzu, he literally one shot the dude utterly, not that it matters as Rasenshurinken is dura negging. Kakuzu needed his stone skin to defend from Choji's attack, attacked Kakashi full on with a kick while his guard was low and didn't kill him, Kakashi even managed to nullify the lightning mask with Raikiri, survived the air one hitting him head on, and pushes back the combo of the fire and wind mask with his water jutsu, likewise Base Naruto and Yamato with a combination Water and Wind jutsu. Naruto also never "kept up" with the Third Raikage, he couldn't even deal damage as KCM which we know is a big deal more powerful, he simply used the much better sensing abilities of Sage Mode to try out his hypothesis and make the Raikage stab himself with his Jutsu.

When were the Jinchuuriki ever amped though? Sharingan doesn't amp people, and a single rinnegan never amped Madara, simply allowed him to use his Rinnegan abilities.

 

[Metalija]

When were the Jinchuuriki ever amped though? Sharingan doesn't amp people, and a single rinnegan never amped Madara, simply allowed him to use his Rinnegan abilities.

They were amped. Its literally stated by Killer Bee. If they weren't then the 2 Tails would have one shot Kakuzu and we know that didn't happen. Also your comment that "sharingan doesn't amp people" is laughable.

 

[NotCensored]

Kakuzu needed his stone skin to defend from Choji's attack,

Nice feat for Choji he barely has any to begin with in Part 2 so i fail to see how that would downscale Kakazu and this is literally the guy who later on in the War Arc could tango with the Gedo Mazo statue

attacked Kakashi full on with a kick while his guard was low and didn't kill him, Kakashi even managed to nullify the lightning mask with Raikiri, survived the air one hitting him head on,and pushes back the combo of the fire and wind mask with his water jutsu

Kakashi is literally a Kage Level Shinobi that was hand picked to fight Akatsuki members him being around the strength of one of the weaker Tailed Beast and Kakazu himself isn't inconsistent in the slightest

likewise Base Naruto and Yamato with a combination Water and Wind jutsu.

Base Naruto already has more chakra than Kakashi normally and he's getting help from Yamato on top of that so not an anti-feat for Kakazu

When were the Jinchuuriki ever amped though? Sharingan doesn't amp people,

The Sharingan has literally always amped people Tobirama states this to Sasuke later on as well

and a single rinnegan never amped Madara,simply allowed him to use his Rinnegan abilities.

It did amp him Obito literally stated to Sakura that the Rinnegan was a huge amp and that he could barely control it which is why he didn't want it to fall into Madara's hands

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Sharingan lets people keep up with people way faster while Rinnegan lets them easily link visions, which sounds more powerful to me. Also, at literally no point ever does a basic sharingan amp people. At no point does a rinnegan amp a person either, and you are free to tell me where this is shown otherwise.

Yes, Kakuzu not getting one shot is called an outlier and Kishimoto having no clue what power the Bijuu should have besides "a lot", just like Gamabunta not getting one shot is an outlier, just as Zabuza matching a stupidly stronger Kakashi is an outlier, etc etc etc.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Obito couldn't even implant two Rinnegan because of how powerful they were.

Sharingan go from seeing a blur, to seeing the opponents next movements and the opponent seemingly move in slow motio. It doesn't only grant precognitive abilities but also increases reaction time. Also Sasuke would need the physical capacity to actually keep up. Prior to this with Two-Tomoe he was getting blitzed left, right and center.

Tobirama states hate breeds to a unique chakra released in the eyes which creates the Sharingan. He also states this increases power and strength rapidly.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That still doesn't show he was amped. Especially when he speaks of "losing himself", something I am not sure of how it relates to AP. And yes, is well known it can boost reaction speed, but that's it.

Even the Eight Tails statement is about them coordinating atatcks, then "it enhanced their jinchuriki abilities" then right after them timing their attacks incredibly due to shared vision. Context very obviously indicates the coordiantion and the way higher kinetic vision of the sharingan is the result of this, nothing about them being actually stronger.

"The deeper the darkness gets, the stronger the ocular powers", still merely talking about the ocular powers. I am getting tired of people citing people getting stronger, forgetting that doesn't always translate to physical stats.

 

[NotCensored]

Sharingan lets people keep up with people way faster while Rinnegan lets them easily link visions, which sounds more powerful to me. Also, at literally no point ever does a basic sharingan amp people.

It literally gives you access to a more potent form of Chakra that rapidly increases your strength and speed along with the perception buffs it literally amps you this is stated on panel by Tobirama

At no point does a rinnegan amp a person either, and you are free to tell me where this is shown otherwise.

All of the relevant scans were already shown to you

Yes, Kakuzu not getting one shot is called an outlier and Kishimoto having no clue what power the Bijuu should have besides "a lot",

Its still not an outlier you're literally just ignoring the lore of the Akatsuki and baselessly down scaling Kakazu because Kakashi could fight him despite Kakashi literally being Akatsuki level since the start of Part 2....

just like Gamabunta not getting one shot is an outlier,

Gamabunta wasn't even fighting a full powered Shukaku and literally had to get Naruto to end the fight by waking up Gaara because he knew Shukaku was going to continue to get stronger and eventually spank him

That still doesn't show he was amped.

"This eye's Chakra and occular powers were to powerful"

Especially when he speaks of "losing himself", something I am not sure of how it relates to AP.

That its so powerful he couldn't implant two of them without going stark raving mad

And yes, is well known it can boost reaction speed, but that's it.

You're literally being ignorant now lol

Even the Eight Tails statement is about them coordinating atatcks, then "it enhanced their jinchuriki abilities" then right after them timing their attacks incredibly due to shared vision. Context very obviously indicates the coordiantion and the way higher kinetic vision of the sharingan is the result of this, nothing about them being actually stronger.

You've literally already been debunked on this theres a literally scan that states the Sharingan amps strength and gives you the a more potent form of Chakra and a similar statement was made for the Rinnegan theres literally no need for me to address any of this

"The deeper the darkness gets, the stronger the ocular powers", still merely talking about the ocular powers.

You're literally ignoring the first panel...

I am getting tired of people citing people getting stronger, forgetting that doesn't always translate to physical stats.

Except it literally does correlate to physical stats here because we literally have a statement proving it does or else EMS Sasuke being KCM Naruto level in speed when he was getting blitzed the Raikage doesn't make any logical sense so not only are you disproven by on panel statements but also feats