Saber (Fate) VS Reinhard van Astrea (Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu)

[ZERO7772]

Celestial Pegasus

you really had to mention that "Gluttony " thing didn't you ? Don't remind of it please ....

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

BTW if his hax allow him to avoid any first attack how will this goes against the type who never miss a target ? Fiamma of the right for example

I have no idea, i don't think anyone in re zero has such an ability besides reinhard of course so idk you would probably have to ask a ln reader about that either way such a match won't end well one it's like a match up between the ultimate defense vs the untimate offense.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

I'm pretty sure the blessings that cause misses don't work against large scale aoe attacks, they would not hit directly but the impact would be large enough to catch him in it as long as you never were aiming directly at him in the first place.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I'm pretty sure the blessings that cause misses don't work against large scale aoe attacks, they would not hit directly but the impact would be large enough to catch him in it as long as you never were aiming directly at him in the first place.

Maybe could very well be that the attack will miss him but he will still get caught in the explosion but then again it could be that the attack will miss him and even the aftermath of the attack will also miss basically the whole area is nuked except for the area around reinhard which i actually think is plausible cause reinhard seems like some sort of jesus in the series i mean he can even walk on water right lol jk anyway i think we need to find out just how exactly that ability works.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Saber can also walk on water.

Saber is jesus confirmed.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Saber can also walk on water.
Saber is jesus confirmed.

Can she also walk on clouds, lightning being unable to strike her,immune to all illnesses and diseases? Yea you see where this is going, i was just being metaphorical when calling him jesus because he is too op.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Well she doesn't have any food related powers unlike Reinhard so I guess he is closer to that archtype...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think the food powers just reinforce him being metaphorically jesus because he is "perfect" not only does he have op abilities anything he cooks will come out delicious that's a bit too random of a power for him to have to not mean anything if you ask me.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

He probably was in a cooking contest sometime and it counted as a fight for the sake of getting 'whatever blessing he needs to win a fight'. Same for telling salt and sugar apart, must've been some carnival style contest. Really shows a lack of restraint on his part tbh, he clearly can't stand losing and will ask for a blessing to solve any problem...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Lol that actually makes a lot of sense, well if you had his cheat ability i am pretty sure you would abuse it too.

 

[Gemmysaur]

The fact that this happened while she was in the middle of combat and it caused her to die is actually a big plot point in the visual novels because it causes reinhardts grandfather wilhelm to resent him and is part of the reason the father is willing to help train suberu so that he doesn't need to go rely on reinhard for assistance.

I'm assuming grandpa is the butler guy who was telling Subaru about his wife, the one who was with the green-haired lady.

 

[Gemmysaur]

• Gluttony (µÜ┤Úúƒ Bōshoku)

This made me cry.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

The fact that this happened while she was in the middle of combat and it caused her to die is actually a big plot point in the visual novels because it causes reinhardts grandfather wilhelm to resent him and is part of the reason the father is willing to help train suberu so that he doesn't need to go rely on reinhard for assistance.

I'm assuming grandpa is the butler guy who was telling Subaru about his wife, the one who was with the green-haired lady.

Yep, that's him.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

So. We got some upgrades for Reinhard in the past few months. Let's see what changes this brings to the table.


Base Reinhard vs Full Saber might be a fun match up. Saber's Excalibur is more powerful than Reinhard using normal sword, but Reinhard can dodge it with MHS reactions + his Blessings are not affected even if he hasn't drawn Reid. Base Reinhard can stalemate her with the right set of Blessings and speed advantage. Even with 7-C base form he is on par with Archer EMIYA/Fake Assassin/True Assassin in melee.


Reid Reinhard vs any version of Saber is... objectively a stomp.


The Gae Bolg's curse, which was able to hurt Saber, is way weaker compared to what some of the minor RZ Witches are capable of performing.

http://pastebin.com/XhMY5wg1


Finally, Pandora gives up controlling Greed and says ['Regulus can't be here. He is resting in his mansion with his harem.']

Greed suddenly disappears, and everything Greed touched is back to normal, even Petelgeuse's arms are back on.


Regulus is displaced hundreds of kilometers and several days back in time, with every visible damage he had caused until then rolled back, by Pandora saying two sentences.


We also have WoG that Reinhard cannot be harmed by any RZverse curse or debuffs.

"Magic Resistance: No curses, debuffs, or buffs can affect him."


So I'm sure Reinhard's magical defenses as shown in RZverse are stronger than Saber's.


On the other hand, Saber will not be able to prevent Reinhard's own curse from injuring her permanently, if Reinhard decides to invoke the Blessing of Death God. Saber was not able to heal through Diarmuid's Gae Buidhe, and as you've already seen an example of above, GB's curse isn't really any more complex compared to RZverse curses.


http://rezero.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_Protectio


The Divine Protection of Shinigami (µ¡╗þÑ×Òü«ÕèáÞ¡À Shinigami no Kago, "Divine Protection of Death God") was formerly used by Thearesia van Astrea. Slashes imbued with the Divine Protection's power leave wounds that are unable to be healed. The power of the Divine Protection increases the closer they are to the target, and the user can even reopen wounds others have if they are close enough and were originally inflicted by them.

http://rezero.wikia.com/wiki/Reinhard_van_Astrea

Divine Protectio (ÕèáÞ¡À Kago): Reinhard has the ability to wish for any Divine Protection he wants, such as the Divine Protection of Judgement (Õ»®ÕêñÒü«ÕèáÞ¡À Shinpan no Kago) during the battle at Priestella, and this ability is confirmed to be unrelated to him being the Sword Saint.


Given these curse/hax mechanics, Reinhard will defeat Saber by a pure battle of attrition, if nothing else - especially given the two Regenerationn feats below:

Reinhard has the Blessing of the Phoenix that will instantly regenerate him through death.

Unfortunately for them, Regulus grabbed Emilia's throat, forcing Reinhard to comply with his request, which was for him to take an attack without protecting himself in exchange for the hostages' freedom. Regulus took advantage of this by killing Reinhard in one strike, subsequently attempting to kill Subaru as well, however to their surprise Reinhard got right back up thanks to his Divine Protection of the Phoenix.


Reinhard can also regenerate, not just his own body, but a entire shattered land mass far larger than Japa completely through a single sword swing. He will easily overpower any damage that Saber can deal through Excalibur.

Arc 4 Chapter 71 - Ending List

The voice at the very end was a voice that was filled up fully with clear contempt up until now. Upon hearing these words, Reinhardt took his sheathed sword out and raised it towards the sky. With the spirit of the sword embedded into it, a flash―the radiance of the sword's edge broke out along with a tremendous flare of heat―which cut into the sky, pierced into the atmosphere, smashed the surface, and churned his mana. Everything that got hit by the straight strike of his sword was bisected―light converged, and the world that Subaru felt in front of him turned into a state of disorder.

ÒÇî――――ÒÇì


The rejuvenation of the world covered in white, cold weather commenced after the slashing torrent. The gaps of the world were repaired, the round world created by the churned mana was restored, flowers budded on top of the earth's broken ground, the pierced atmosphere became filled with warm weather, and sunlight came into it from the broken sky. The world's demise and the world's rebirth occurred at the same time as a result of the sword's slash. And now, the slash caused the remains of the gigantic, lacerated beast to disappear thoroughly. Its remains disappeared to such an extent that not a trace of it would be left behind. The gigantic body that certainly should have had been there just a moment ago was nowhere to be seen, and even the waves of destruction caused by the gigantic body were nowhere to be found.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Heinkel_Astrea/Re:Zero_-_Puck_%27World_End%27_minimum_AoE_calculatio

That absurd level of damage-reversal AoE magic right there, sir, is a healing capability that's waay out of context even for Avalon.


Anyway, Reinhard is now an at least High 6-C combatant who can stalemate an at least High 6-A Witch without endangering himself. He is also at least MHS reaction speeds, so I doubt he can get blitzed. With these upgrades Reinhard will defeat 7-A Saber.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That's a really long post heinkel, lets see even the weakest version of saber is city level while reinhard is only town level but reinhard has higher reactions though speed is equalized here. I say saber takes it cause of higher dc and the fact that reinhard has no hax, his get any blessing he wanted didn't help him in his fight with regulus though that was mostly cause regulus was too broken but that's besides the point he doesn't just start pulling broken abilities out of nowhere in combat.

Also we don't know if pandora's reality warping would work on reinhard, obviously i think it wouldn't cause it's reinhard no hax in the verse has ever worked on this dude, but we have no proof really.

With reid reinhard takes this cause of higher dc, matter manipulation though seeing how fate characters are pretty sure they have resistance to that, and sealing he could just seal her though he doesn't need to since he has higher dc anyway.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I don't think Base Reinhard will defeat Saber. However, if Reinhard decides to fight it evasively then Saber would not be able to catch him, for the same reason that other weaker Servants can elude Saber and avoid getting killed because of the skill sets they have.


Base Reinhard also has haxes he can invoke. The Death God works even if he hasn't drawn Reid. Theresia's Death God worked with any sword she had used, so we know Reid is not a requisite for activating Blessings. Reinhard can copy Crusche's Blessing of Wind Indication to tell him of ambushes. Reinhard can walk on clouds, etc. How many clouds can Saber split before the Earth runs out of clouds? (it's a joke, don't take it seriously : P)


In addition, activating these Blessings has nothing to do with Reinhard being the Sword Saint. He can activate them even in his base form.

http://rezero.wikia.com/wiki/Reinhard_van_Astrea

Divine Protectio (ÕèáÞ¡À Kago): Reinhard has the ability to wish for any Divine Protection he wants, such as the Divine Protection of Judgement (Õ»®ÕêñÒü«ÕèáÞ¡À Shinpan no Kago) during the battle at Priestella, and this ability is confirmed to be unrelated to him being the Sword Saint.


And he gets all his Blessings within a few seconds of asking for it after Subaru suggests what he might need. Happened at least twice in the LN, with Judgment and long-range Tracking for tens to hundreds of kilometers.


So Reinhard will just stall Saber endlessly until he finally decides to draw the damn sword.

Base form is pointless though because why make one Servant able to use her Noble Phantasm fully but the other unable to use his own NP and instead use a mundane sword (if we compare Reinhard to a Servant)? It would be like Lancer fighting with a man-made spear.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Base reinhard has no hax man, just a crap ton of hax resistance, he has never been shown to use the death god and quite frankly i doubt he even knows about it he one shotted theresia before she could do anything. Saying he could copy crusch blessing i think is an nlf, in that case we might as well just give him every ability in the verse which is ridiculous we have to go by what he has been shown to copy and use so far, clearly he has asked for new blessings before but we can't just start giving him new blessings in the middle of battle which he hasn't been shown to acquire yet.

His ask for anything blessing also clearly has limits cause he didn't just ask for a new blessing to beat regulus, granted regulus is broken but if he just asked for a blessing to be able to reality warp or pierce through space-time he would have beaten regulus but he didn't.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I'm pretty sure limiting Reinhard's Blessing list only to those that were specifically named in RZ is not an NLF. We only have 50 or so named Blessings in RZ and 40 of them are already owned by Reinhard. It's a very small and limited list. It's not a no-limit list.

Fully and instantly regenerating himself after he was dead is hax. That is a legit defensive hax. He was also unhurt by any attacks of Regulus, which can trivially cut through man-made skyscrapers in Lugnica, through defensive haxes. So he clearly has defensive haxes, even if Reid is fully sheathed.

Reinhard has defensive haxes that allow him to stall Saber until he decides to fight her seriously.

Granted, being speed-equalized gives more advantage to Saber than Reinhard, since Reinhard would have to work harder to dodge Saber's attacks now, but the only reason that Saber has a chance here is because she can use her NP freely while Reinhard can't use his own NP equivalent in R1.

Say Reinhard, maybe, died once to Saber in R1; he will regenerate with Phoenix and kill her right afterwards in R2 after drawing Reid. He can focus 670 gigatons of thermal energy at the tip of his sword, or enough to fatally kill every human being and shatter all buildings in an area 2 times the whole of Japan. This is without delving into hax mechanics that allows him to resist damage from Satella in a straight fight.

Reinhard can't lose to Saber who is High 7-A with limited haxes when he can't be killed by a High 6-A Witch who has far more haxes than her. Saber might have been able to overturn Reinhard's AP and durability advantage if she had enough haxes, but she doesn't. She didn't display haxes on the level of Satella (who has the composite Authority of 7 Witches).

So yes Reinhard solidly wins Round 2. I think this is a better evaluation of both combatants' maximum capabilities as some of the strongest swordsmen of the FSN/RZ setting (both of them at full power). Speed equalizing to allow Saber to hit Reinhard more easily while he is fighting defensively in R1 was already enough. It's like making 7-C Archer EMIYA fight full power Saber with only the Kanshou and Bakuya.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I was saying that giving him crusch or theresia's ability for instance would be an nlf as it isn't mentioned in his blessings list, clearly he has more blessings like 50+ but we don't know what they are. Also in those blessings list we can't take all of them literally cause of his never get hit and always hitting blessings cause we don't know the mechanics behind them, yes we know od gave it to him but we don't know how powerful od is, we will in due time though so for now for vs matches we have to ignore those blessings that are nlf's.

Yes i know, you don't have to tell about his defensive hax, still he has no offensive hax in base just a whole lot of defensive hax. Depends on if sabers abilities are just pure dc or involve hax if they involve hax it gets negated by reinhards defenses if it's just pure dc he isn't tanking a city level attack in base cause we can't take the always miss blessing seriously in a vs debate.

As i already said round 1 saber, round 2 reinhard.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Base Reinhard is easily tanking Regulus' 7-B hax though. Both of them are ostensibly doing that with haxes but he's still tanking it squarely.

I see no reason why 7-B hax that ignores durability is less effective than 7-B that can't ignore durability, but let's gloss over that if you don't agree with this.

7-C Archer/Assassins have also traded blows with 7-B Saber and have not died if they choose to fight defensively. So he can defend himself.

Reinhard will only 'lose' if Saber can spam Excalibast and one of them hits him. Before Saber uses Excalibast he can survive, and it entirely depends on how fast she is to nail him down.

But really Round 1 is redundant. There's nothing that should mechanically prevent Reinhard from drawing Reid if he realizes that the opponent is stronger than his base form.

And not being able to give Reinhard new Blessings means that his 'can ask for RZ Blessings' mechanics would now literally be meaningless for VS. It's like saying Shirou/Archer cannot trace Vajra because they've never done it in the story (when every Fate debaters will insist that they can).

So what new Blessing can Reinhard even ask for according to your logic (because everything he has asked for in the story is already in his kit)? Nothing, it's as good as not existing in his profile anymore.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The op made 2 rounds one with base and one with reid, so that's how it is, clearly reinhard without reid is basically him being handicapped but he shows different levels of powers with and without reid which is why he has 2 seperate tiers and he can't just suddenly draw reid cause he is limited by the rules of the match to only be in base.

I am just saying we shouldn't say reinhard can get literally any blessing he wants cause that would be ridiculous. Sure if it's a blessing that idk makes him able to fly or maybe gives him clairvoyance something like that, it's reasonable to say he could do that. Just nothing ridiculous like getting a blessing to warp reality or manipulate space or any ability in general that's gives him offensive hax as that's not in his skill set in base. His blessings mostly seem to only amp himself and not give him the ability to affect his opponents.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Eh, not literally any Blessing. Only Blessings that were named, like that of her own grandmother though IC Reinhard will still choose not to ask for it, since once he has it, he cannot discard it that will make everyone he hurts injured permanently (same reason that Theresia did not want to be a Sword Saint for a long time).

I did not say warping reality or some such. I clearly mentioned only Blessings that were named and used by other inferior swordsmen in the setting.

Blessings can affect opponents directly. Again, Theresia, another Sword Saint, his own grandmother. He is actually lucky that he wasn't born with it.

Right so. Since the battlefield is that of endless swords, Reinhard could, in theory, spam sword throws more powerful than True Assassin's dirk. But the speed equalization for both scenarios is a pain really.

This hypersonic trench here was made by Reinhard throwing a random sword, while trying not to kill Subaru and Emilia. It's kinda ridiculous compared to direct showings of Assassin dirks that can be parried by someone like Kirei Kotomine. (and Assassin himself too has only Building level durability. Even if they both had the same AP Reinhard is much more durable and faster if not speed equalized)




I know it isn't calced yet (which would just make it At least 7-C AP) and we still have to determine if he can throw swords as fast as Shaula can shoot needles... unless you can accept that his ranged attack speed could scale to Shaula's. Not that you need to accept it, it's just an interesting tactics to note that Reinhard can survive encounters that someone like True Assassin can.


Anyway, if this VS is accepted then I suggest R2 take precedence over R1 for the final results. Both combatants should be measured at their full power, unless you also give Saber proportionate handicaps like having no armor on/Fate route Shirou master/Invisible Air/Speed not being equalized so that Reinhard has the advantage in defending while Saber is 7-B (his current reactions is 3-10 times Saber's).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Idk i find it iffy if he could actually or would actually get or ask for say theresia's blessing like you pointed out he wouldn't do it in character and he clearly has a preferance for blessings that gives him defense or amps himself as he cleary has no offensive blessings in his arsenal, nothing not even something like a blessing that gives him the ability to manipulate wind.

Side note heinkel we are both knowledeable on re zero i feel like you are arguing with me as if i don't know the feats the characters have lol.

I don't think matches with characters winning in one round and lossing in another are even added from my knowledge, so you don't have to be anxious about reinhard having a loss on his profile to saber cause he beats her with reid, wait scratch that it could be added with a note that said it was only base reinhard, whatever reinhard clearly losses in base but wins with reid.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Reinhard 'losing' in base is very unfair because Saber is at full Alter power, it's basically her most powerful form. Reinhard on the other hand is on his weakest form, plus speed has been equalized to be on Saber's favor by at least a factor of 3 even in his weakest scenario.

Yes he can ask Theresia's Blessing if he just chooses to, it's said so about his Blessing straight. -__- It's like asserting that EMIYA can't project Vajra upon seeing it just because EMIYA didn't do it in the story.

Lastly, R1 is literally like making Alter Saber fight against Archer EMIYA with only Kanshou and Bakuya, ok. Reinhard just has more defensive haxes above that. If he can't match Saber blow-to-blow then he'd just have to keep throwing swords endlessly while dodging Saber.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So is saber at full power? As in the small island level one? That's entirely unfair yes, I mean reinhard would still lose to the city level version of her though.

Can he though? Has he ever acquired a blessing that is offensively orientated and no i am not talking about initiative that makes his attacks always hit i mean a blessing that for instance is meant to hurt it's targets like as i said before wind manipulation or fire manipulation, yes i know reinhard has heat manipulation with reid but that's different.

This match isn't a good one anyway even if saber was just her 7-B version she would stomp reinhard with higher dc as he has no offensive hax, and if she is 7-A she gets stomped by reinhard who is high 6-C so it's not a good match either way, also we are the only ones replying to this thread from months ago, so i don't think anyway cares anymore