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RWBY Volume 7 CRT - 1 Year Late

TheRustyOne said:
Are you saying to downgrade the Maidens, Ozpin/Ozma, and Salem to High 8-C physically, High 7-C/Low 7-B with magic? Or are you saying Tier 7 is an outlier? Please explain what you're trying to say, because I don't understand what you mean.

You do know that Raven and Cinder can take hits from each other's magical attacks (High 7-C)? Yet can still injure each other with their physical strikes, they're clearly far stronger when using Maiden powers. Cinder also got hit in the face by Raven's magic, with her Aura broken mind you, and was fine.
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Firstly, what I am saying is that those that Cinder does get physically stronger when she starts using Maiden versus when she isn't. If you want to point to an example where she does then please do.
As for your attempted refutation, can you qualitatively or quantitatively demonstrate that the attacks Raven and Cinder used on each other are 7-C like the storm?
If not, can you give me a logically coherent valid argument as to why all their magical attacks would scale the same way?

Secondly, neither Cinder nor Raven had their aura broken. It was just cracked but that's irrelevant since aura isn't really a factor either.

Lastly, do you realize that Cinder's Grimm arm is relevant regardless of whether they're using Maiden powers or not? It isn't ampped by aura. She's also still able to use it in base. It doesn't outscale herself and Neo is able to fight her as well. So it makes you wonder if she can use her arm both in and outside of Madien powers, on both maidens and non-maidens respectively, then should she scale to it? And if so then what is the difference between maiden powers on and them off? I can provide a consistent answer that doesn't contradict anything and lines up with the scaling.
 
I'm still not fully understanding you, but it seems like you're saying they aren't Tier 7 at all. Are you saying it's an outlier?

In case like these we automatically assumes their magic scales for a few reasons. Since the energy used to create the storm came from the Maiden powers, she should be capable of putting that type of power into her magical attacks as it comes from the same energy source.

Also the amount of effort Raven put into the storm is clearly inferior to how much effort she used against Cinder. Also what do you mean they're Aura is cracked, I've been out of RWBY for awhile so maybe I'm forgetting something. But can you explain what that is and prove that's what happen to their Aura?

The Grimm arm thing is a very good point though.

Despite what I said however, I do agree that Maidens shouldn't be High 7-C. I believe the feat is an invalid for reasons I'll outline here.

First: Amber vs Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald. As Amber was unable to one shot anyone, nor could she defend herself against all of their attacks with her magic barrier. She stops Mercury and Emeralds bullets with her barrier, but Cinder's glass shards hit her dead on. Even if Amber is inexperienced, that doesn't change the fact she gets her power from the same source as Cinder. Being inexperienced just means she's less skilled, or doesn't know as many spells/attacks as the other Maidens.

Though I'm aware some will disagree with me on that part.

Second: I believe Watts's statement is still valid. It was stated by Watts that even with two Maidens Qrow would not go down quietly. Even with two Maidens who can supposedly one shot him with zero effort by our standards. Watts wasn't saying Qrow can defeat two Maidens, he was saying he's worried they can't defeat him fast enough. In this scenario, Qrow should be unable to last more than a few seconds at best. There's no way he would be able to last long against two Tier 7s, yet even so Watts was worried.

Third: Cinder vs Penny and Winter. If Cinder can just magically amp herself to Tier 7, there's literally no reason why she doesn't just one shot the two of them. With how we rate her, she can just activate her Maiden powers, tank their attacks with zero damage, and proceed to one shot them. But that's not what happens right?

Cinder does activate her Maiden powers, and still fails to one shot them. She does knock out Winter's Aura in one shot, though it was probably low from their fight. She's also starting to get frustrated with them and is even breathing heavily, implying that she's exerting herself. She isn't toying with them like Pyrrha, she actually trying to defeat them and struggling. Even if she's superior to them, she's not thousands of times stronger than them.

Heck Winter physically contends with Maiden Cinder right here.

By our standards Cinder should be capable of cutting Winter in half here, yet she doesn't for reasons?

There are other points as well. Cinder being able to physically contend with Ozpin without using her Maiden powers. Ozpin wanting Qrow, Ironwood, and Glynda to assist him in battling Cinder. Even though three High 8-Cs wouldn't be able to do anything against a High 7-C.

Note: The Maiden powers are indeed stronger than their normal abilities, I'm not denying that. However they're clearly not thousands of times stronger than anything else in the verse. Professional Huntsmen are still a threat to them, and they've never been shown as some kind of unstoppable force. They're strong yes, but the Pros should still be in the same level as them. So I believe that High 7-C should be treated as an outlier as it's vastly higher than anything else shown in the series.
 
TheRustyOne said:
So I believe that High 7-C should be treated as an outlier as it's vastly higher than anything else shown in the series.
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I’d argue that due to the Maidens being far superior to nearly every other character in the series their High 7-C feat wouldn’t be an outlier.

Qrow refers to the power of the Maidens as “unimaginable power” (10:10), implying they’re greatly superior to Pro Huntsmen. Cinder also stomped Winter and left her grievously injured (2:52) later in their fight.

Inb4 Raven’s storm is considered Environmental Destruction
 
I said this already, but let’s see if we can wait for Salem’s storm to be calced, depending on where the maidens power would be divided it could be consistent.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Despite what I said however, I do agree that Maidens shouldn't be High 7-C. I believe the feat is an invalid for reasons I'll outline here.
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I mean, I agree with you that they shouldn't be High 7-C in a combat applicable sense. Granted I think Community_Gamer is making the obvious point that there's really no good reason to scale the storm creation energy to their other, direct attacks, especially physicals, however our system has so much of a precedent with storm feats being used haphazardly that I think the outlier argument is also an efficient way of making the stats more accurate.

Personally I think Environmental Destruction also makes sense, since, well, they're still able to make storms, but evidence clearly shows that the writers A) like most writers, do storm creation as a rule of cool without considering the implications of the energy associated with storm creation, and/or B) wrote in those feats to show how powerful they are but also framed literally everything else in the show in a sense that the Maidens aren't at that level.

Reminder that an all-out, no-holds-barred fight between Salem and Ozmas didn't do much more than collapse an extremely large palace complex over time.
 
The point I'm making is that having the Maidens be thousands of times stronger than the Pro Huntsmen is incorrect.
They're stronger yes, but not by such a large amount.

I don't care which way it ends up, but the show doesn't portray them as being capable of one hit killing Pro Huntsmen.
 
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It was said above that they are amped when they get the power, but it isn't on and off, no? So, could we get the source for that WoG?

If it just says being a maiden makes you stronger, yeah, it doesn't mean you now get a transformation.
 
Which characters have pushed attacks back? As for taking attacks me and dargoo are discussing scaling aura durability to maiden level attacks
 
We do not scale Pyrrha to Cinder as she was toying with her. Pyrrha was no threat to her like Winter and Penny was. Ozpin even stated that having Pyrrha assist him would only be getting in his way. Which further proves she stands zero chance against her.

Pyrrha is around Mercury's level, who's weaker than normal Cinder. Mercury even stated that Cinder could defeat Pyrrha with no problem.
 
TheRustyOne said:
We do not scale Pyrrha to Cinder as she was toying with her. Pyrrha was no threat to her like Winter and Penny was. Ozpin even stated that having Pyrrha assist him would only be getting in his way. Which further proves she stands zero chance against her.

Pyrrha is around Mercury's level, who's weaker than normal Cinder. Mercury even stated that Cinder could defeat Pyrrha with no problem.
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Ok, so let’s say Cinder was toying with Pyrrha

What combat feats exist for the maidens that put them higher than High 8-C.

Ergo, why is the High 7-C feat not an outlier.
 
Being stated above other characters doesn’t justify that large of a gap in power. Especially when none of the maidens are ever shown that far above anyone.

Attempting to justify High 7-C by WoG saying they’re above others, but then trying to say everyone is also High 7-C because the maidens aren’t actually above others, is faulty logic.

Feats say Maidens are consistently around the tier of the rest of the cast. WoG say they’re stronger, which supports them being higher into High 8-C than everyone else.

The only weird thing is a casual High 7-C feat of making a storm through magic, of which we have no idea how Raven even made it other than she just did.
 
They're not just stated though, they are consistantly shown to be physically above everyone else in the series. Not sure where you're getting that theyre sole justification for being stronger is statements
 
WeeklyBattles said:
They're not just stated though, they are consistantly shown to be physically above everyone else in the series. Not sure where you're getting that theyre sole justification for being stronger is statements
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Being > others isn’t justification of High 7-C. Justification for High 7-C would be one shotting the High 8-C’s or doing feats above High 8-C.

Maidens only have physical feats against High 8-C characters, of which none of them put them anywhere above “stronger than usual.” No Maiden has one shot a High 8-C, or done anything that implies that high of a difference in strength. The High 7-C feat is the outlier here.

Maidens have 0 feats that put them that vastly above the cast other than one.
 
Let's see...

Half-Maiden cinder casually beat Glynda and Ruby in a 1v1 fight

Amber, an untrained maiden, nearly killed mercury and emerald and only lost because cinder caught her off guard while her maiden powers were deactivated

Full maiden cinder killed ozpin and casually defeated Pyrrha

Cinder and Raven's fight causing earthquakes that shook all of Haven

Maiden Cinder casually overpowering Winter and Pennt, including oneshotting the latter as well as her summon

Fria's power burning Winter but not Cinder

They're pretty consistently above everyone else
 
The entire fight with Amber shows that Maidens are not that far above the cast. She pelts then with numerous direct hits, including hitting Mercury directly in the chest with a lightning bolt while her maiden powers were active, and they just keep beating her down and getting back up.

If she was so far above the cast that they are nothing to her, why did she struggle at all to beat 3 High 8-C’s whom she landed multiple attacks on while not holding back.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Being > others isn’t justification of High 7-C. Justification for High 7-C would be one shotting the High 8-C’s or doing feats above High 8-C.

Maidens only have physical feats against High 8-C characters, of which none of them put them anywhere above “stronger than usual.” No Maiden has one shot a High 8-C, or done anything that implies that high of a difference in strength. The High 7-C feat is the outlier here.

Maidens have 0 feats that put them that vastly above the cast other than one.
Click to expand...
When you're above everyone else on top of having feats far beyond what they have and consistent feats of stomping those people yes, that is justification.

Yes, the maidens have consistently oneshot and stomped the tier 8s of the verse with casual ease.

They have several actually, I just listed them. Hell even Oz has tier 7 feats on his own.
Kingofwolves999 said:
The entire fight with Amber shows that Maidens are not that far above the cast. She pelts then with numerous direct hits, including hitting Mercury directly in the chest with a lightning bolt while her maiden powers were active, and they just keep beating her down and getting back up.

If she was so far above the cast that they are nothing to her, why did she struggle at all to beat 3 High 8-C’s whom she landed multiple attacks on while not holding back.
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Amber was untrained, she is not the standard of maiden power. Trying to use her to claim that all.maidens arent tier 7 is a false equivalence, especially when she herself has a tier 7 feat.
 
Cinder with no maiden powers nearly killed Amber immediately when her Aura was down. If Maidens have High 7-C Dura even without their aura, why did that happen.

None of the feats you listed put them at High 7-C. “Above the rest” is literally all that shows. The Maidens could be 8-B with feats like that, High 7-C specifically breaks scaling.

Amber being untrained doesn’t mean she’s weaker. All of Cinder‘s powers were hers, her being worse combat wise doesn’t mean characters that are meant to be far inferior to her can take any hit from her unless it’s stated that AP is specifically what she was inexperienced with.

“Yes, the maidens have consistently oneshot and stomped the tier 8s of the verse with casual ease.”

This is a lie.


WeeklyBattles said:
They have several actually, I just listed them. Hell even Oz has tier 7 feats on his own.

Amber was untrained, she is not the standard of maiden power. Trying to use her to claim that all.maidens arent tier 7 is a false equivalence, especially when she herself has a tier 7 feat.
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How many of which are just storm creation? Which can just make them “High 7-C via environmental destruction”? Also calcs? I already know the Raven one, but I don’t recall Amber or Oz having tier 7 calcs
 
There are many concepts I'd have to explain to individual people to move forward with anything. So I'll just layout how I scale RWBY for anyone who gives a shit.

1. Aura doesn't matter as much as you may think. Yes, Aura is a "shield" but it doesn't significantly increase durability. (By significantly, I mean to some qualitative degree) Nor does it significantly increase attack. I know this may be sacrilege to some, that's fine. I would then ask you for an instance of when a character was qualitatively stronger with aura versus without?
2. There is no "Huntsmen or Pro Huntsmen" level. Judge every character individually. This should pretty obvious but I tend to see people saying things like "stronger than pro huntsmen" and things of that nature. it makes me think, what does that mean? There is no minimum strength of any particular Huntsmen.
3. Maidens do get an amplification, only on the first initial gaining of power. Meaning they get stronger when they receive the power, but they don't get weaker or stronger depending on when the powers active or not.
4. There is no "Maiden level" at least no single one. Maidens like Amber and the no named Maiden Raven killed were especially weak and inexperienced. Whereas people like Raven and Cinder are stronger, with Fria possibly being greater than that. You may be wondering, how is that the case when it's the same power between them? Well, obviously each person who becomes a Maiden isn't the same strength. For example, Cinder was weaker than Amber but she was still able to combat her. So when she gets even a portion of the power her power raises to a significantly higher level. This is probably expedited when she gets the rest of the power after shes had half for a year.

There are other things, I most definitely don't have people ranked the same as most of you. But these were most relevant to the conversation.
Also, I think you guys are focusing too much on the AP values when the scaling isn't really in order yet. Kinda putting the cart before the horse.
 
Community_Gamer said:
1. Aura doesn't matter as much as you may think. Yes, Aura is a "shield" but it doesn't significantly increase durability. (By significantly, I mean to some qualitative degree) Nor does it significantly increase attack. I know this may be sacrilege to some, that's fine. I would then ask you for an instance of when a character was qualitatively stronger with aura versus without?
Click to expand...
Pyrha said that Aura is used as a conduit for tools and equipment. Hence it would strengthen loafs of bread, trays, and glass swords into usable weapons.

CostlyElementaryAmazontreeboa-max-1mb.gif

Ren using Aura to deliver a powerful strike.

2. There is no "Huntsmen or Pro Huntsmen" level. Judge every character individually. This should pretty obvious but I tend to see people saying things like "stronger than pro huntsmen" and things of that nature. it makes me think, what does that mean? There is no minimum strength of any particular Huntsmen.
Click to expand...
So it is not reasonable to assume that Huntsmen in training are weaker than graduated veteran Huntsmen?

Kingofwolves999 said:
Please provide evidence of a Maiden one shotting someone.

And if you do provide that evidence, then cease trying to scale others to them.
Click to expand...
 
The Grimm arm can siphon Maiden power, but can you provide evidence that it ignores Aura? Kerry confirmed that Weiss' Queen Lancer summon was able to pierce through Hazel's Aura.
Also, Cinder did not expect a skilled and powerful Huntress to be capable of escaping her ice attack, so the gif includes two one-shots.
 
Freezing someone isn’t a one shot so idk what you mean by two one shots.

So either she killed Vernal when her Aura was down, which means nothing since Ruby could slice off anyone’s head without their aura, or she one shot her through her aura.

If we’re saying serious maidens can one shot people through their aura, why is anyone remotely trying to say other characters Aura scale to the maidens. Unless everyone has Aura that is orders of magnitudes higher than Vernal for some reason.
 
With training, having Aura activated is second nature. Plus, Vernal knew that Raven was going to attack Cinder at any moment while she is pretending to open the Vault, and she entered fight mode before she got pierced.
So it wouldn't make sense to not have Aura activated with an enemy Maiden behind her.

Freezing someone isn’t a one shot so idk what you mean by two one shots.
Click to expand...
Non-maiden = not strong enough to escape. Incapped with a single attack.
Maiden = strong enough to escape
 
Idk what your point is with the freezing argument if I’m being honest. Who else did Cinder freeze in the moment you’re referring to with Raven?

Cinder one shotting Vernal through her aura just furthers my point that no one should scale to the maidens.
 
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