RWBY - Immaterial Non-Physical Interaction Review

[Firestorm808]

• V7 C3: Blake attempts to shoot a geist's main body with her dust bullets (all bullets use dust), but no impacts are seen.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

• V7 C3: Blake attempts to shoot a geist's main body with her dust bullets (all bullets use dust), but no impacts are seen.

Jinx brought this up, it was agreed that she just missed due to a mix of being scared from being caught off guard as well as the low light conditions of the cave

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also sorry if my responses are a bit far between, im at work atm

 

[Firestorm808]

@Damage3245

What is your recommendation regarding the retcon for the Arma Gigas? It was originally conceived as a general robot suit before it got retconned years later as a "possessed" creation of the SDC.

I still have to re-look over the materials to see if NPI occurs.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245

What is your recommendation regarding the retcon for the Arma Gigas? It was originally conceived as a general robot suit before it got retconned years later as a "possessed" creation of the SDC.

I still have to re-look over the materials to see if NPI occurs.

I'm not sure how relevant it is. In the actual series if a Geist-possessed object is destroyed, the Geist leaves it. In the trailer, no such thing happened (obviously because Geists didn't exist back then).

So I'm not sure that I'd judge the current Geists of the series based on the performance in the White trailer, since anything in the White trailer could be outdated.

 

[Jinx666]

The Arma Gigas is most definitely a Grimm (Otherwise i dont think it would be part of Weiss' summoning), but it was here since the White Trailer and hasn't got the same 'mask' or anything identified within the Grimm, mainly because it was a retcon and designed before the White Trailer. Other than that, the Geist within the suit has never been seen.

If anything, the Geists are seemingly CONTAINED within the Arma Gigas, since it was originally just under Jacques control or smthn, which means they can be kept within a physical body at least

 

[Kingofwolves999]

The current state of affairs, I suppose, is that Ruby’s semblance doesn’t quite give Elemental Intangibility. While she can disperse into rose petals and is essentially just a dispersion of molecules, she can still be hit and stopped by physical objects, whether they have Aura or not, such as a wall. As such, Mercury kicking her is just a case of him being so much faster that her instinctive reaction, which helps her disperse around objects, couldn’t activate in time. So not truly NPI since she can be touched by essentially anything, but with her instinctive reaction, it is incredibly hard to do so before she disperses around your hits.

As for the Geist, we’re still stuck at “only the masks get damaged.” Clover’s attempt to grab the Geist missed, so there’s not much speculation on “whether he would catch its body or not.” The Mask is never shown to be capable of intangibility either, and seems to be the Geists main weak point. As such, no NPI should be gained from attacking the mask.

These are the two, and only relevant, examples of NPI being discussed, and should be the basis of conversation. I’m currently against NPI as a whole.

@Damage3245

What is your recommendation regarding the retcon for the Arma Gigas? It was originally conceived as a general robot suit before it got retconned years later as a "possessed" creation of the SDC.

I still have to re-look over the materials to see if NPI occurs.

I'm not sure how relevant it is. In the actual series if a Geist-possessed object is destroyed, the Geist leaves it. In the trailer, no such thing happened (obviously because Geists didn't exist back then).

So I'm not sure that I'd judge the current Geists of the series based on the performance in the White trailer, since anything in the White trailer could be outdated.

As should also be mentioned, the Geists were destroyed utterly by the “White Dust Attack” that Weiss used, to completely annihilate their construct. So the argument that she still destroyed their masks and not their intangible bodies can still be made.

On top of, as you say, the Knight being a relic from years before Geist were even a concept. It’s an incredibly strange case that has been retconned.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm not sure how relevant it is. In the actual series if a Geist-possessed object is destroyed, the Geist leaves it. In the trailer, no such thing happened (obviously because Geists didn't exist back then).

So I'm not sure that I'd judge the current Geists of the series based on the performance in the White trailer, since anything in the White trailer could be outdated.

The Arma Gigas is Weiss' main summon from Volume 4 onwards, and se is only able to summon Grimm, so its pretty relvant

Plus the Ice Queendom version of the fight, which is a reanimated version done years later, portrays it as basically the same despite Geists having existed for years

 

[WeeklyBattles]

As should also be mentioned, the Geists were destroyed utterly by the “White Dust Attack” that Weiss used, to completely annihilate their construct. So the argument that she still destroyed their masks and not their intangible bodies can still be made.

On top of, as you say, the Knight being a relic from years before Geist were even a concept. It’s an incredibly strange case that has been retconned.

It wasnt retconnned is the thing, the Arma Gigas is a central part of Weiss' ability set and has been for five seasons now

 

[Jinx666]

Can i ask why the Arma Gigas is exactly relevant here?

Its a Geist grimms possession yeah, but the only reason it doesnt have a mask is because of this very retcon, so idk if the point here is that the Grimm's 'weak spot' cant be the mask, when the Arma Gigas just originally wasnt a Geist

There are also mutliple geists in it, and was designed for more intentional purposes to be used for the SDC, so maybe the masks are just sealed somewhere if there truly around? The fact the Geists are being kept in this armour or however it works just goes against the intangibility too, since i doubt any creatures of Grimm are willingly going to be obedient or controlled by a human

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Can i ask why the Arma Gigas is exactly relevant here?

Its a Geist grimms possession yeah, but the only reason it doesnt have a mask is because of this very retcon, so idk if the point here is that the Grimm's 'weak spot' cant be the mask, when the Arma Gigas just originally wasnt a Geist

There are also mutliple, and designed for more intentional purposes so maybe the masks are just sealed somewhere if there truly around?

The mask was inside the armor, but at the same time Weiss destroyed the entirety of the Geist's body rather than just its mask

 

[Jinx666]

The mask was inside the armor, but at the same time Weiss destroyed the entirety of the Geist's body rather than just its mask

Well i mean this was all completely before the notion of a Geist existed. Ergo, we can definitely say this wasn't the writers/directors or anyone's intent to imply this, since originally the Gigas wasn't a Geist.

Idk the logistics of Weiss also being able to summon the Armour the geists were inhabiting either, since that shouldnt be living but thats again just cause it was a huge retcon.

Either way we dont see a physical interaction with the Geist, or where Weiss exactly hit but the final explosion from the white trailer was contained within the suit, so it definitely seemed like dust was involved in that final strike from Weiss? Weiss' strike even from Ice Queen dom was just to pierce the armour, and then somehow that triggered the Arma Gigas within to get destroyed, in a way that no other Grimm, and not even the geist from main RWBY disintegrates like.

 

[Jinx666]

Ight I dont wanna change the topic completely within this thread, but can i msg someone separately with questions about the AP reasonings for RWBY (Who would know specifically why they're tiered this way)? I know from the Verse page the logic behind the scaling but just need a few things clarified

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ight I dont wanna change the topic completely within this thread, but can i msg someone separately with questions about the AP reasonings for RWBY (Who would know specifically why they're tiered this way)? I know from the Verse page the logic behind the scaling but just need a few things clarified

I mean, the discussion thread is always open, though admittedly the reasonings for the profiles are currently very outdated, we havent gotten around to doing the full profile cleanups yet as we are still doing general additions and revisions before that

 

[Jinx666]

I mean, the discussion thread is always open, though admittedly the reasonings for the profiles are currently very outdated, we havent gotten around to doing the full profile cleanups yet as we are still doing general additions and revisions before that

Are the AP reasonings fundamentally the same though (specifically the Town level Centinels and Downscaling from Cinder?) or are there more feats still needing to be added that go along these?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well i mean this was all completely before the notion of a Geist existed. Ergo, we can definitely say this wasn't the writers/directors or anyone's intent to imply this, since originally the Gigas wasn't a Geist.

Idk the logistics of Weiss also being able to summon the Armour the geists were inhabiting either, since that shouldnt be living but thats again just cause it was a huge retcon.

I mean, not really? Monty had been planning stuff out for the show long before volume 1 had even dropped, and the fact that they kept it being a Grimm even in the reanimated version from Ice Queendom would imply they had planned for it to be a Grimm for some time.

Either way we dont see a physical interaction with the Geist, or where Weiss exactly hit but the final explosion from the white trailer was contained within the suit, so it definitely seemed like dust was involved in that final strike from Weiss? Weiss' strike even from Ice Queen dom was just to pierce the armour, and then somehow that triggered the Arma Gigas within to get destroyed, in a way that no other Grimm, and not even the geist from main RWBY disintegrates like.

She used Dust yes

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Are the AP reasonings fundamentally the same though (specifically the Town level Centinels and Downscaling from Cinder?) or are there more feats still needing to be added that go along these?

There are more feats yeah

 

[Jinx666]

I mean, not really? Monty had been planning stuff out for the show long before volume 1 had even dropped, and the fact that they kept it being a Grimm even in the reanimated version from Ice Queendom would imply they had planned for it to be a Grimm for some time.

The Geist was specifcially confirmed duirng the V4 commentary that the current writers were designing and made the concept of this ghost grimm.

It might have been a grimm type controlling it from the beginning, but it was never originally a geist. Ergo if we're trying to say the Geists dont need to have masks out in the open or smthn based on this, then its shaky since we know it was just because of a retcon (and its a special case of the SDS somehow getting it under control).

She used Dust yes

So then why is this being used as an example of her destroying the Geists body via a physical strike?

There are more feats yeah

Ight ill look into this discussion thread for them

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Geist was specifcially confirmed duirng the V4 commentary that the current writers were designing and made the concept of this ghost grimm.

It might have been a grimm type controlling it from the beginning, but it was never originally a geist. Ergo if we're trying to say the Geists dont need to have masks out in the open or smthn based on this, then its shaky since we know it was just because of a retcon (and its a special case of the SDS somehow getting it under control).

No? The Arma Gigas being a grimm was confirmed in the 2015 manga, volume 4 didnt start until 2016

So then why is this being used as an example of her destroying the Geists body via a physical strike?

Because using Dust in the way that she does utilizes Aura

 

[Jinx666]

No? The Arma Gigas being a grimm was confirmed in the 2015 manga, volume 4 didnt start until 2016

Yeah i know it was a grimm, iirc it was a colony of possession-type grimm, but the full idea of the Geist wasnt a concept in itself at the time. so any mask logistics just wouldnt apply naturally

Because using Dust in the way that she does utilizes Aura

If it was the elemental ability of the actual dust though, im not sure how that translates to her physical strike here. The Aura may be used to activate the dust but that translate to the power it gives off. Dust isnt reliant on aura for its power, since dust is also used as the general energy source of the world

 

[Arkenis]

yeah ima have to disagree lol

Ruby shooting the geist, Harriet punching one, is all blatant npi feats. The argument about it being contradicted cause geist can physically destroy stuff…. its a well known thing that intangible beings can still interact with stuff on a physical level, its not a contradiction, its just the way of fiction.

 

[Jinx666]

yeah ima have to disagree lol

Ruby shooting the geist, Harriet punching one, is all blatant npi feats. The argument about it being contradicted cause geist can physically destroy stuff…. its a well known thing that intangible beings can still interact with stuff on a physical level, its not a contradiction, its just the way of fiction.

Its more about justifying the Geist is actually completely intangiblity, and its form of intangibility. Cause if its not, and it even has a tangible weakspot like the mask, then it wouldn't be NPI. So far in the show, the only intangible thing for certain is when its possessing things exclusively.

Geist never destroyed anything on its own, it just took a physical swipe at Blake with its claws, which an intangible being (like immaterial) just wouldn't do. If the Geist's physical relationship is onesided (A.k.a it cant be hurt by physical attacks, but it can still physically attack someone), without the notion of it being able to control its tangibility, then i think its fair to say that this would need to be proved seeing as Geists still exist on the same plane as Remnant, unlike actual ghosts/spirits sometimes being associated off of it.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

yeah ima have to disagree lol

Ruby shooting the geist, Harriet punching one, is all blatant npi feats. The argument about it being contradicted cause geist can physically destroy stuff…. its a well known thing that intangible beings can still interact with stuff on a physical level, its not a contradiction, its just the way of fiction.

Bro, the entire point is that when they damage it, they only hit the mask. No one has ever hit the actual, intangible part of a Geist: their body. The mask is never shown to be able to phase through things, and is the clear weakness for it when possessing something, so the argument is that attacking the mask is not enough for NPI.

 

[Arkenis]

Its more about justifying the Geist is actually completely intangiblity, and its form of intangibility. Cause if its not, and it even has a tangible weakspot like the mask, then it wouldn't be NPI. So far in the show, the only intangible thing for certain is when its possessing things exclusively.

Would being able to go into and come out of objects without doing any damage to them as it does when Ruby destroys it here, be intang to you? And the mask just wouldn't be intang since its a weakpoint.

Geist never destroyed anything on its own, it just took a physical swipe at Blake with its claws, which an intangible being (like immaterial) just wouldn't do. If the Geist's physical relationship is onesided (A.k.a it cant be hurt by physical attacks, but it can still physically attack someone), without the notion of it being able to control its tangibility, then i think its fair to say that this would need to be proved seeing as Geists still exist on the same plane as Remnant, unlike actual ghosts/spirits sometimes being associated off of it.

This just seems like you're tryna complicate the intang. It trying to attack someone doesn't now support that it's tangible. Ghosts in fiction do this sort of thing all the time after all.

Bro, the entire point is that when they damage it, they only hit the mask. No one has ever hit the actual, intangible part of a Geist: their body. The mask is never shown to be able to phase through things, and is the clear weakness for it when possessing something, so the argument is that attacking the mask is not enough for NPI.

Harriet very clearly uppercut it though, are you gonna say she only hit the mask itself? cause it seems that punch hit the neck and mask.

 

[Arkenis]

Also just saw the Geist tryna hit Blake, Im not being completely dumb on this, it seems like the Geist has bones and claws, it would make sense that those parts are physical like the mask and thats why it swiped at them with its claws.

 

[Jinx666]

Would being able to go into and come out of objects without doing any damage to them as it does when Ruby destroys it here, be intang to you? And the mask just wouldn't be intang since its a weakpoint.

If the mask isnt intangible, yet thats the only way its ever been touched, then yeah, RWBY wouldnt have NPI for that.

The Geist has a sense of intangibility shown, but its only ever linked into its possession without ever demonstrating stuff like being non-physical in the actual show.

This just seems like you're tryna complicate the intang. It trying to attack someone doesn't now support that it's tangible. Ghosts in fiction do this sort of thing all the time after all.

I just want the intangibility to be clearer and more defined. The Geist again, is not a real ghost, and functions as a Grimm. We cant call something 100% passively intangible, yet its trying to physically attack someone without the power of being intangible.

Ghosts in fiction tend to either fight on their own plane, possess stuff or interact with other elements, or just be able to control their level of tangibility. If its a one-sided physical relationship then yeah, i definitely think it needs to be proven the Geist can attack things physically, but still be passively intangible, since otherwise its an example of it being tangible.

Harriet very clearly uppercut it though, are you gonna say she only hit the mask itself? cause it seems that punch hit the neck and mask.

Yeah she uppercuts it. Even if she hit the neck and the geist was intangible it'd hit the mask. But the mask was very clearly the region hit.

 

[Jinx666]

Also just saw the Geist tryna hit Blake, Im not being completely dumb on this, it seems like the Geist has bones and claws, it would make sense that those parts are physical like the mask and thats why it swiped at them with its claws.

Well yeah thats my argument lol

The Geist is still made of the same stuff as the Grimm, with the same bony bodily-weaponry as stuff like Beowolves. If the main black body of it was intangible sure, i could see that, but the mask definitely seems tangible and a huge weak spot.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah Im a bit neutral on the topic then. At first I thought this was rather blatant but the mask being always the main target granted its a weakpoint still wouldn't excuse them not attacking the real body as well.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Harriet very clearly uppercut it though, are you gonna say she only hit the mask itself? cause it seems that punch hit the neck and mask.

Yes? She hit the base of the mask, that was agreed upon. If she hit the neck, it would not look upwards, it would look downwards as her fist would imprint on its neck.

An upper cut is aimed at the chin, which is where the mask is. So she hit the mask.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just saying, if she hit the mask like that without perfect positioning her fist would've slipped one way or the other. Can someone post a scan of that punch again?

 

[Jinx666]

Just saying, if she hit the mask like that without perfect positioning her fist would've slipped one way or the other. Can someone post a scan of that punch again?

She hit the mask region one way or the other. If the geist was intangible, it would have just went through the neck and hit the geist anyways

Here

 

[DaReaperMan]

She hit the mask region one way or the other. If the geist was intangible, it would have just went through the neck and hit the geist anyways

Here

It's called NPI mate, just because YOU do not like it doesn't mean it's not fact.

Bro, her punch barely, if at all, landed on the mask. Oops, sorry, your argument just fell apart.

 

[Jinx666]

It's called NPI mate, just because YOU do not like it doesn't mean it's not fact.

And just because you like to think this for the sake of 'high-ends', doesnt mean it also doesnt viably contradict the notion the Geist is 100% intangible and shouldnt be denied.

Bro, her punch barely, if at all, landed on the mask. Oops, sorry, your argument just fell apart.

???
Please if you're just here to troll then stop trying to gaslight. It isnt useful

 

[SilentLyfe]

So what’s the consensus so far?

 

[DaReaperMan]

And just because you like to think this for the sake of 'high-ends', doesnt mean it also doesnt viably contradict the notion the Geist is 100% intangible and shouldnt be denied.

???
Please if you're just here to troll then stop trying to gaslight. It isnt useful

This is a power. its whole purpose is to cover socking something you shouldn't be able to.

If anything the one trolling here is you and the fact talking to you is akin to talking to a brick wall. I've watched that punch like 5 times at this point and each time her punch barely touched the mask.

And would you like to be reported for the gaslightning accusation? That's a pretty big one to throw around you know, and one I am more then willing to take higher up.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So what’s the consensus so far?

Wish i could tell ya, the majority of the thread agrees with keeping NPI and just adjusting it to a 'possibly' for the people who havent directly fought Geists but a few people are still insistent on it being removed, i think Jinx is planning a CRT to remove Elemental Intangibility from the intangibility page so characters who have hit Ruby in her semblance state dont get NPI, i dunno, this thread is a mess lmao

I tried to warn yall that this is exactly what would happen smh

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wish i could tell ya lol, the majority of the thread agrees with keeping NPI and just adjusting it to a 'possibly' for the people who havent directly fought Geists but a few people are still insistent on it being removed, i think Jinx is planning a CRT to remove Elemental Intangibility from the intangibility page so characters who have hit Ruby in her semblance state dont get NPI, i dunno, this thread is a mess lmao

TBH Elemental intangibility should probably be its own page anyway, it's so different to the rest of the Intangibility qualifiers, it'd be NPI-worthy anyway

 

[SilentLyfe]

Honestly at this point the staff who voted here showed probably be messaged to take another look and if their opinion is unchanged. Otherwise this back and forth is just going to continue endlessly.

 

[Jinx666]

This is a power. its whole purpose is to cover socking something you shouldn't be able to.

If anything the one trolling here is you and the fact talking to you is akin to talking to a brick wall. I've watched that punch like 5 times at this point and each time her punch barely touched the mask.

You do realise what an uppercut is right?

And would you like to be reported for the gaslightning accusation? That's a pretty big one to throw around you know, and one I am more then willing to take higher up.

'Bro, her punch barely, if at all, landed on the mask. Oops, sorry, your argument just fell apart.'

Like, yeah, please do. I think you're here to troll, like you've already admitted to.

 

[Jinx666]

Wish i could tell ya, the majority of the thread agrees with keeping NPI and just adjusting it to a 'possibly' for the people who havent directly fought Geists but a few people are still insistent on it being removed, i think Jinx is planning a CRT to remove Elemental Intangibility from the intangibility page so characters who have hit Ruby in her semblance state dont get NPI, i dunno, this thread is a mess lmao

I tried to warn yall that this is exactly what would happen smh

I havent started any CRT, but yeah, the basis of Elemental Intangibility doesnt allign logically with NPI. Elements/substances/Molecules arent non-physical like intangibility or incorporeality.
This is also not the reason why RWBY is given NPI.

Even the guy saying this disagreed, and OP characters arent actually given NPI for interacting with Logia.