RWBY - Immaterial Non-Physical Interaction Review

[WeeklyBattles]

Heck are Ruby's sniper bullets even imbued with aura? They're separated from her gun when theyre fired, and i dont think RWBY characters can indefinitely imbue their aura into things

They are yes, all ammo is imbued with Aura

 

[Jinx666]

They are yes, all ammo is imbued with Aura

So what decides when it runs out? I can understand it when its clothes and weapons they're actively holding onto it but when have the bullets themselves, when separated from the body, still had the aura?

Wouldnt it just be dust bullets like everyone uses? or whatever Yangs got retconned into. Why would they need to imbue Aura into bullets normally anyway if Aura doesnt actually physically change their stats (and is only a forcefield) and you WANT the shells of the bullet to break or pierce on impact

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245

What are your thoughts on my assessment of the full scene?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/rwbys-non-physical-interaction-questionability.151476/post-5620734

It seems like a reasonable assessment to me.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So what decides when it runs out?

What do you mean by 'runs out'?

I can understand it when its clothes and weapons they're actively holding onto it but when have the bullets themselves, when separated from the body, still had the aura?

Always? Its how weapons work in RWBY lol, its the same logic for characters that throw their weapons, they dont suddenly stop having Aura just because its not on their immediate person anymore. There are even semblances like Coco's Hype which specifically amp her firepower by increasing the damage of her bullets.

Wouldnt it just be dust bullets like everyone uses? or whatever Yangs got retconned into. Why would they need to imbue Aura into bullets normally anyway if Aura doesnt actually physically change their stats (and is only a forcefield) and you WANT the shells of the bullet to break or pierce on impact

I mean, normal bullets dont really even exist, gunpowder doesnt exist, they use fire dust as a propellant

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And that wouldnt be phasing?

Im not sure on the ruling of that when like...the main factor of intangibility is you can walk through walls and stuff. Id think its been shown otherwise by the fact it actually got hit but er...as long as this is just another assumption

No, that would be immaterial, you need specific proof of a different kind of intangibility for it to be anything else.

Its been hit before, and it tried to attack someone physically while its mask is showing multiple tangible qualities.

It being hit is qhat makes the cast qualify for NPI. It attacking does not disqualify this because attacking something while intangible doesnt mean youre suddenly tangible.

No, thats just the Flash's way of intangibility as a biproduct of his speed. A lot of intangibility powers like Kitty Pryde or Mirio can just basically make their body not interact with matter through uncertain methods

Mirio and Kitty both have explicit explanations for how their powers work, and they both explicitly work through phasing.

Dont see how a Geist can 'enter physical matter freely', but still not be a phasing intangibility. I dont see how that would protect it from physical attacks when its never shown to withstand a physical attack before at all.

Both immaterial and phasing intangibility can move through matter freely, it is just the mechanics of the intangibility that matter. Immaterial means you are just physically intangible and thu can move through matter at will, phasing means you are tangible but actively vibrate your molecules to move through matter. The Geist does not have phasing intangibility as, like i said, phasing intangibility exists in RWBY and is explicitly shown to function completely differently from the Geist's brand of intangibility

 

[Jinx666]

No, that would be immaterial, you need specific proof of a different kind of intangibility for it to be anything else.

?
So you're saying...the Geist hasn't got a phasing intangibility...but it can phase into physical matter to possess it, as the only intangibility its ever shown...

But thats somehow Immaterial?

It being hit is qhat makes the cast qualify for NPI. It attacking does not disqualify this because attacking something while intangible doesnt mean youre suddenly tangible.

I mean it does contradict the notion and an alternate conclusion one can make. Why is it not a valid contradiction? Whats the grounds for completely denying this possibility? Other than the fact it would nerf RWBY of a verse-wide hax. RWBY Contradiction is ubiquitous, they're always doing things that literally dont make sense and go against a concept like Ruby's Semblance.

Mirio and Kitty both have explicit explanations for how their powers work, and they both explicitly work through phasing.

Kitty probably has but its chalks down to 'they're mutants/quirks, they can just do it as their power'. Vibrating molecules at super fast speeds to phase is a subpower of Flash, not the standard for how 'phasing intangibility' works, and nothing you can dismiss just cause the Geist doesnt have Flash-levels of speed or molecular control

Both immaterial and phasing intangibility can move through matter freely, it is just the mechanics of the intangibility that matter. Immaterial means you are just physically intangible and thu can move through matter at will, phasing means you are tangible but actively vibrate your molecules to move through matter. The Geist does not have phasing intangibility as, like i said, phasing intangibility exists in RWBY and is explicitly shown to function completely differently from the Geist's brand of intangibility

No one except Flash or other speedsters vibrates their molecules, that isnt the sub standard for the word 'phasing', and just because the Geist doesnt do this does not mean its out of the question.
'Intangibility is the ability to pass through things physically.' The Geist still would be able to phase through stuff if it was Immaterial.
' sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. '

'Immaterial: This type of intangibility allows the user to phase through most attacks due to not being made up of a physical substance' - As per the wiki definition.
The Geists are made from a physical substance when they come from the same Grimm Ooze that can interact physically.

So i dont know if its just pedantics or not, but the Geist would still be able to phase through things as immaterial, but it only does so to possess.

We genuinely dont know the Geists brand of intangibility other than it exclusively uses it for possession either way. And it isnt a real ghost or 'unembodied spirit', its origins are the same as all of the Grimm. So how does that suggest its definitely an Immaterial Intangibility other than what you are calling a 'default assumption'.? Cause then once again its an assumption which hasnt been concretely proven.

 

[Jinx666]

Is there anyway you can prove that the Geists Intangibility works outside of its Possession in any way? Cause this is, from what i know, the only way the Geist has ever actively shown this intangibility, and could therefore be what is being referred to when it is called 'Intangible'.

Because if the intangibility is only exclusive to one power, then that surely limits us from saying it bears ALL the qualities of any of these types of Intangibility. To me, it seems like this Possession works like Shihai Kuroiro's Quirk from MHA, where the Geist can only phase INTO objects (For Kuroiro, its specifically darker/black objects) and be able to control them to an extent, but that doesnt make him all the way intangible, and he can be pulled out of or kept within the things it goes into.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

?
So you're saying...the Geist hasn't got a phasing intangibility...but it can phase into physical matter to possess it, as the only intangibility its ever shown...

But thats somehow Immaterial?

Yes, because immaterial intangibility and phasing intangibility are fundamentally different. Both can pass through matter, but the mechanics of how they do so are what matters

I mean it does contradict the notion and an alternate conclusion one can make. Why is it not a valid contradiction? Whats the grounds for completely denying this possibility? Other than the fact it would nerf RWBY of a verse-wide hax. RWBY Contradiction is ubiquitous, they're always doing things that literally dont make sense and go against a concept like Ruby's Semblance.

Because its not a contradiction? Everything from the lore to the Word of God to the depictions in the show and extended media all point towards the Geist being intangible. The grounds for denying the possibility are said possibility is in fact the contradiction, it contradicts all evidence we have regarding the Geist, yet has no proof to back up its validity.

Kitty probably has but its chalks down to 'they're mutants/quirks, they can just do it as their power'. Vibrating molecules at super fast speeds to phase is a subpower of Flash, not the standard for how 'phasing intangibility' works, and nothing you can dismiss just cause the Geist doesnt have Flash-levels of speed or molecular control

No one except Flash or other speedsters vibrates their molecules, that isnt the sub standard for the word 'phasing', and just because the Geist doesnt do this does not mean its out of the question.

1. No, both of them have direct descriptions of their abilities, and both Kitty and Mirio's powers explicitly work through molecular phasing.

2. You absolutely can, both from the fact that phasing as per the intangibility page is explicitly based on vibrating the body's molecules to move through matter, and the fact that, as i said before, phasing exists in RWBY and is depicted as completely different from what the Geist does.

'Intangibility is the ability to pass through things physically.' The Geist still would be able to phase through stuff if it was Immaterial.
' sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. '

'Immaterial: This type of intangibility allows the user to phase through most attacks due to not being made up of a physical substance' - As per the wiki definition.

Intangibility

Intangibility is the ability to pass through things physically. Characters with this ability are simply unaffected by attacks, as they pass through their bodies. This can also allow them to pass through walls and other physical objects. The exact mechanics of intangibility differ depending on...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Phasing: The ability to phase through matter by becoming briefly intangible, sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. This includes doing things like altering your own density to phase through objects. However, this does not necessarily allow the user to phase through immaterial energy-based attacks."

This is not what the Geist does.

The Geists are made from a physical substance when they come from the same Grimm Ooze that can interact physically.

Not sure where youre getting the idea that it has to be physical because its a Grimm. The Chill is a Grimm that comes from the same ooze and its a living incorporeal shadow.

So i dont know if its just pedantics or not, but the Geist would still be able to phase through things as immaterial, but it only does so to possess.

We genuinely dont know the Geists brand of intangibility other than it exclusively uses it for possession either way. And it isnt a real ghost or 'unembodied spirit', its origins are the same as all of the Grimm. So how does that suggest its definitely an Immaterial Intangibility other than what you are calling a 'default assumption'.? Cause then once again its an assumption which hasnt been concretely proven.

Yes, hence why it is assumed to be immaterial until proven otherwise, as is standard with all other vague forms of intangibility. You would need to prove that it is a different kind of intangible for it to be anything other than immaterial.

And once again im really struggling to understand why you are so fixated on the idea that immaterial means the character HAS to be a ghost or disembodied spirit.

 

[Jinx666]

Yes, because immaterial intangibility and phasing intangibility are fundamentally different. Both can pass through matter, but the mechanics of how they do so are what matters

Yes, but its not reliant on 'vibrating your molecules' like you seem to think. Why would the Geist not be able to go through walls, but only go through innate material thats seemingly dislodged on its own?

Because its not a contradiction? Everything from the lore to the Word of God to the depictions in the show and extended media all point towards the Geist being intangible. The grounds for denying the possibility are said possibility is in fact the contradiction, it contradicts all evidence we have regarding the Geist, yet has no proof to back up its validity.

It got punched? Multiple times? Physically?

It tried to Physically attack Blake on its own.

Those would be contradictions of its intangible nature in one way to conclude, but you're only considering that instead NPI is in play for everyone, and were making huge assumptions to get it on board like the fact it derives from Aura, even though this has never been actually stated in the series, and then trying to scale it to everyone.

1. No, both of them have direct descriptions of their abilities, and both Kitty and Mirio's powers explicitly work through molecular phasing.

That doesnt mean its vibrating molecules like Flash

2. You absolutely can, both from the fact that phasing as per the intangibility page is explicitly based on vibrating the body's molecules to move through matter, and the fact that, as i said before, phasing exists in RWBY and is depicted as completely different from what the Geist does.

' sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. '

Saying sometimes does not make it the default. Flash being able to vibrate his molecules is on account of his literal super speed. Its the Flash. Why are you comparing his Speed application as the general gist of the Intangibility power?

"Phasing: The ability to phase through matter by becoming briefly intangible, sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. This includes doing things like altering your own density to phase through objects. However, this does not necessarily allow the user to phase through immaterial energy-based attacks."

This is not what the Geist does.

sometimes through such means
altering your own density

I dont think its got Phasing Intangibility either, I think its phasing is just hard-limited to its Possession

Not sure where youre getting the idea that it has to be physical because its a Grimm. The Chill is a Grimm that comes from the same ooze and its a living incorporeal shadow.

Except unlike the Geist, the Chill actually has an incorporeal form. We havent ever seen it in the show, and the Geist clearly isnt incorporeal like it so that seems to be as such an exception. Geist is still treated as a footsoldier

Yes, hence why it is assumed to be immaterial until proven otherwise, as is standard with all other vague forms of intangibility. You would need to prove that it is a different kind of intangible for it to be anything other than immaterial.

Proof that this is the default assumption?

And if its an assumption, then its not concrete.

And once again im really struggling to understand why you are so fixated on the idea that immaterial means the character HAS to be a ghost or disembodied spirit.

You've already had someone say for you that since the Geist is based on a Ghost, its easy to assume its immaterial.

Immaterial intangibility is literally commonly found within disembodied spirits and ghosts, but the Geist is a being still on Remnant. Immaterial isn't even the top type of Intangibility on its page, why is it the default?

 

[Jinx666]

@Damage3245
@Firestorm808

Can i get your opinions of

• Immaterial Intangibility being the default type of Intangibility to assume when it is unclear how it works.
• Whether it is fair to deny the notion that the Geist going against its stated 'Intangibility' (A.k.a it getting physically punched or hit in any capacity) could just be a genuine contradiction via RWBY's writing standards, and ergo bring its intangibility into question whatsoever.
• The Geist's intangibility being hard-locked to its Possession ability (As in it can only phase into things that it specifically possesses) and working like the Shihai's Quirk from MHA. Ergo this could be what the book was referring to when saying Intangible instead of assuming the immaterial type.
• Current opinions on just the Geists Mask (and possibly its claws?) being the tangible elements

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Why does this discussion even matter. The type of phasing can be figured out later.

The hook just missed the Geist, specifically due to Qrow's bad luck semblance

Except Clover has a good luck semblance that counters out Qrow’s bad luck.

 

[Jinx666]

Why does this discussion even matter. The type of phasing can be figured out later.

Except Clover has a good luck semblance that counters out Qrow’s bad luck.

The whole name of the discussion has been changed to it for some reason.

Im just confused on why the Geist is made immaterial as a default option when it has only ever phased through things its possessing

 

[Darius2036]

Going back to Harriet's punch, another angle shows that she actually hit somewhere between it's jaw/throat.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/ae/Screenshot_20230403-175006.png

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes, but its not reliant on 'vibrating your molecules' like you seem to think. Why would the Geist not be able to go through walls, but only go through innate material thats seemingly dislodged on its own?

Because if it goes into a wall it is stuck in the wall. Geists actively seek out stuff they can use to make a useable body with, it would have no reason to just enter a wall as it would just be stuck there.

It got punched? Multiple times? Physically?

By people who have NPI, yes.

It tried to Physically attack Blake on its own.

This does not disqualify NPI.

Those would be contradictions of its intangible nature in one way to conclude, but you're only considering that instead NPI is in play for everyone, and were making huge assumptions to get it on board like the fact it derives from Aura, even though this has never been actually stated in the series, and then trying to scale it to everyone.

Genuinely i would love to see you try to apply this logic to any other verse that has intangibility. I really would, because you would get the same exact answers.

That doesnt mean its vibrating molecules like Flash

' sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. '

Saying sometimes does not make it the default. Flash being able to vibrate his molecules is on account of his literal super speed. Its the Flash. Why are you comparing his Speed application as the general gist of the Intangibility power?

sometimes through such means
altering your own density

Vibrating/controlling your own molecules is the ONLY way to get phasing intangibility. It is literally the only qualifier for it.

Proof that this is the default assumption?

It just sorta is, like im not sure what else to tell you other than gesturing to the general intangibility users category, because immaterial is accepted on this site as the default form of intangibility unless proven otherwise.

And if its an assumption, then its not concrete.

Like ive told you time and time again, logical assumptions are the backbone of this community, this website, and battleboarding as a whole. If youre looking for abzolutely zero assumptions you are in the wrong hobby.

Immaterial intangibility is literally commonly found within disembodied spirits and ghosts, but the Geist is a being still on Remnant. Immaterial isn't even the top type of Intangibility on its page, why is it the default?

Cool, just because its commonly found in ghosts and spirits does not mean that those are the only things that can ever have immaterial intangibility. It really feels like you need to make a CRT about this as you seem to have a lot of problems with the definitions of the various kinds of intangibility in general.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I still agree with Weekly and Reaper here.

 

[Jinx666]

Because if it goes into a wall it is stuck in the wall. Geists actively seek out stuff they can use to make a useable body with, it would have no reason to just enter a wall as it would just be stuck there.

So it couldnt just pass through the other side of the wall still? Like to escape?

Or are you admitting its intangibility is limited to its possession

By people who have NPI, yes.

By people you're assuming have NPI instead of considering how it might contradict your form of intangibility. Because one option gives RWBY a cool power, and the other doesnt.

This does not disqualify NPI.

It doesnt technically, but again, why are we taking only one option over the other (Cause we wanna give RWBY more hax)

Genuinely i would love to see you try to apply this logic to any other verse that has intangibility. I really would, because you would get the same exact answers.

Other verses actually back up their showings of intangibility and do it more than an adjective in a guidebook. you've literally admitted you're just going for what you think is the default assumption.

RWBY consistency wise is like, low tier verse lol.

Vibrating/controlling your own molecules is the ONLY way to get phasing intangibility. It is literally the only qualifier for it.

No it isnt what? Not every phasing intangibility is explained. You dont even think molecules exist in RWBY Aura lol.

I guess you would 'control your molecules' in a way to make it pass through matter but thats...genuine umbrella term rather than you not knowing Flash's application of speed doesnt apply to chars like Mirio or Kitty.

It just sorta is, like im not sure what else to tell you other than gesturing to the general intangibility users category, because immaterial is accepted on this site as the default form of intangibility unless proven otherwise.

'It just sorta is'

Not good enough. You are claiming this is the default assumption for Intangibility, but on what grounds other than your own opinion?
Immaterial isnt even the top type on the page lol.

Again, please prove its the default other than Source: I made it up. Even you linking to another Vs battles wiki convo where Immaterial was the default assumption somehow would be fine

Like ive told you time and time again, logical assumptions are the backbone of this community, this website, and battleboarding as a whole. If youre looking for abzolutely zero assumptions you are in the wrong hobby.

And their 'logic' can be questioned when its being so loosely used just to give a Verse buffs.

Actually shown feats, statements, scans etc will ALWAYS trump your assumptions (Lord knows you wanna rank White Diamond Planet level cause you thought she broke Homeworld lol). Your assumptions can NEVER be so affirmed if they aren't proven, so having a major scaling factor hang on your assumption (Again, Cinder killing Ozpin does not necessarily mean she broke through the forcefield), when even on the page its not regarded as a 'possibility' (which is what it is at best) is majorly flawed.

Gotta love the strawman. Assumptions are obviously fine to some extent (Like just the general concept of powerscaling, Character A is stronger than Character ) but not when they're such a major factor on scaling a load of characters, just because people want high-ends. Accuracy always matters.

Just because not everyone is willing to just trust the most idealised assumptions that havent been confirmed Weekly, doesnt mean they're just existing to spite you. I'd prefer RWBY characters werent so overly bloated since they're genuinely decent characters to debate with unique powers and skill, and that their reasonings didn't come from major assumptions you can just 'get away with'.

Cool, just because its commonly found in ghosts and spirits does not mean that those are the only things that can ever have immaterial intangibility. It really feels like you need to make a CRT about this as you seem to have a lot of problems with the definitions of the various kinds of intangibility in general.

Alright but what else has the Geist shown to make it immaterial instead of you deluding everyone into thinking its a default opinion?

And can you prove its intangibility isnt limited by just its possession?

 

[Jinx666]

Genuinely though at least you admit you just assume things most of the time. Now you just gotta not look down on every plebian who likes a more accurate approach

 

[Firestorm808]

Yeah, I still agree with Weekly and Reaper here.

Can you elaborate on what points you agree with?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So it couldnt just pass through the other side of the wall still? Like to escape?

It could have, yes, but that would have lead to it possessing a wall.

Or are you admitting its intangibility is limited to its possession

It is intangible 100% of the time as it has not shown any indication of being or becoming tangible at any point in the series or in any of the lore.

By people you're assuming have NPI instead of considering how it might contradict your form of intangibility. Because one option gives RWBY a cool power, and the other doesnt.

Not assuming, no. They hit an intangible opponent, therefore they have NPI. You are the one making the assumption that the thing that is outright stated and shown to be intangible must actually be tangible and we just dont know it yet, that the lorebook, show depictions, and writers are all wrong, and that your interpretation must be the only one that is right.

It doesnt technically, but again, why are we taking only one option over the other (Cause we wanna give RWBY more hax)

Because one option is right, and one option is wrong. And yours sure as hell isnt right. Love the accusation that this is just an attempt to inflate the profiles with different powers, real classy move of yours, just accuse people of having ulterior motives because you cant make an actual argument.

Other verses actually back up their showings of intangibility and do it more than an adjective in a guidebook. you've literally admitted you're just going for what you think is the default assumption.

No? I admitted that immaterial intangibility is the default for ALL verses. RWBY has numerous examples that prove intangibility, which ive posted, numerous times, and youve ignored, numerous times.

No it isnt what? Not every phasing intangibility is explained. You dont even think molecules exist in RWBY Aura lol.

I guess you would 'control your molecules' in a way to make it pass through matter but thats...genuine umbrella term rather than you not knowing Flash's application of speed doesnt apply to chars like Mirio or Kitty.

Yes it is, its literally the definition:

Intangibility

Intangibility is the ability to pass through things physically. Characters with this ability are simply unaffected by attacks, as they pass through their bodies. This can also allow them to pass through walls and other physical objects. The exact mechanics of intangibility differ depending on...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Phasing: The ability to phase through matter by becoming briefly intangible, sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. This includes doing things like altering your own density to phase through objects. However, this does not necessarily allow the user to phase through immaterial energy-based attacks.

And yes, molecules dont exist within Aura because it is a forcefield, its in the name, FORCEfield. Rosa's semblance, on the other hand, is outright stated and described as phasing intangibility.

'It just sorta is'

Not good enough. You are claiming this is the default assumption for Intangibility, but on what grounds other than your own opinion?
Immaterial isnt even the top type on the page lol.

Again, please prove its the default other than Source: I made it up. Even you linking to another Vs battles wiki convo where Immaterial was the default assumption somehow would be fine

I really dont know what else to tell you, not every answer youre looking for is going to be some 8 page long explanation for why things are the way they are here, it just is. If you disagree with it youre free to make a CRT but im telling you the truth, ask anyone else, they'll tell you the same thing.

And their 'logic' can be questioned when its being so loosely used just to give a Verse buffs.

Actually shown feats, statements, scans etc will ALWAYS trump your assumptions (Lord knows you wanna rank White Diamond Planet level cause you thought she broke Homeworld lol). Your assumptions can NEVER be so affirmed if they aren't proven, so having a major scaling factor hang on your assumption (Again, Cinder killing Ozpin does not necessarily mean she broke through the forcefield), when even on the page its not regarded as a 'possibility' (which is what it is at best) is majorly flawed.

Gotta love the strawman. Assumptions are obviously fine to some extent (Like just the general concept of powerscaling, Character A is stronger than Character ) but not when they're such a major factor on scaling a load of characters, just because people want high-ends. Accuracy always matters.

Just because not everyone is willing to just trust the most idealised assumptions that havent been confirmed Weekly, doesnt mean they're just existing to spite you. I'd prefer RWBY characters werent so overly bloated since they're genuinely decent characters to debate with unique powers and skill, and that their reasonings didn't come from major assumptions you can just 'get away with'.

Not even going to bother responding to this. Ive given an excess amount of proof to back up my arguments. You have given zero. You are in the wrong here and have been since this thread began. The fact that you cant see that yet continue to belitle anyone who disagrees with you says a lot about you, both as a debater and as a person.

Alright but what else has the Geist shown to make it immaterial instead of you deluding everyone into thinking its a default opinion?

And can you prove its intangibility isnt limited by just its possession?

Stated to be intangible by the guidebook

Shown in the show to be able to freely enter and exit matter at will

Stated by the writers to be based on a ghost

You are the one deluding yourself and others arguing that this is not proof of intangibility.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, its probably a duck

The Geist is shown to be intangible, stated to be intangible, and is based off of an intangible creature, ergo it is most likely intangible

Occam's Razor is a handy thing when dealing with logical assumptions, not that this is even an assumption to begin with as its just a fact

 

[Jinx666]

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, its probably a duck

The Geist is shown to be intangible, stated to be intangible, and is based off of an intangible creature, ergo it is most likely intangible

Occam's Razor is a handy thing when dealing with logical assumptions, not that this is even an assumption to begin with as its just a fact

Yeah the Geist is intangible in some degree, but its unclear how, and if anything limited to one power

Its only shown to be Intangible through the things its possessing with no other intangible qualities and traits, let alone of Immaterial

Its described as Intangible, and is very obviously referring to the Intangibility it actually shows in the series (Phasing into things it possesses)

Geist isnt a ghost, and its origin derives the same as other Grimm creatures with a form. You are assuming it cannot be struck physically when that has never been shown, quite the opposite actually, and instead using it as an excuse to give certain NPI to RWBY rather than using it as the evidence that the Geist just isnt Intangible in the way you think it is.


How many assumptions are you going to make until it becomes blatantly just unclear?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Gotta love how 'intangible ghosts' are reliant on seeing via light.

It couldnt just phase its eye out or smthn?

Everything sees via light. Unless youre proposing we remove intangibility and invisibility from all things that can see while theyre intangible and invisible, this argument is just goofy and means nothing

 

[Jinx666]

It could have, yes, but that would have lead to it possessing a wall.

Which like, it doesnt NEED to possess, it could surely just go into the wall, and then come out in another end.

'Its based off a ghost' after all lol

It is intangible 100% of the time as it has not shown any indication of being or becoming tangible at any point in the series or in any of the lore.

Except the times its been hit, and trying to hit physically

Wheres all the indication that Aura comes with NPI functionality. If a big thing about this grimm was that it couldnt be touched physically, then that would have clearly been shown in the show

Not assuming, no. They hit an intangible opponent, therefore they have NPI. You are the one making the assumption that the thing that is outright stated and shown to be intangible must actually be tangible and we just dont know it yet, that the lorebook, show depictions, and writers are all wrong, and that your interpretation must be the only one that is right.

Assuming the Geist is intangible in the way you think it is when its intangibility is only ever shown exclusive to one power

Its Shihai's quirk to a better extent

Because one option is right, and one option is wrong. And yours sure as hell isnt right. Love the accusation that this is just an attempt to inflate the profiles with different powers, real classy move of yours, just accuse people of having ulterior motives because you cant make an actual argument.

My 'option' doesnt give RWBY NPI.
'sure as hell isnt right'

You gonna tell me why it isnt right as if RWBY is completely consistent with its powers? (Insert Ruby's Semblance video)

No? I admitted that immaterial intangibility is the default for ALL verses. RWBY has numerous examples that prove intangibility, which ive posted, numerous times, and youve ignored, numerous times.

You 'admitted'

You made up you mean?

Yes it is, its literally the definition:

Intangibility

Intangibility is the ability to pass through things physically. Characters with this ability are simply unaffected by attacks, as they pass through their bodies. This can also allow them to pass through walls and other physical objects. The exact mechanics of intangibility differ depending on...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Phasing: The ability to phase through matter by becoming briefly intangible, sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. This includes doing things like altering your own density to phase through objects. However, this does not necessarily allow the user to phase through immaterial energy-based attacks.

Bro really cant see that 'Sometimes' can they?

Go get your glasses fixed Maria

And yes, molecules dont exist within Aura because it is a forcefield, its in the name, FORCEfield. Rosa's semblance, on the other hand, is outright stated and described as phasing intangibility.

Yang doesnt resist Overhaul, im not going into this again

Yall realise force is acted upon through molecules though right?

I really dont know what else to tell you, not every answer youre looking for is going to be some 8 page long explanation for why things are the way they are here, it just is. If you disagree with it youre free to make a CRT but im telling you the truth, ask anyone else, they'll tell you the same thing.

This is a CRT.

Not even going to bother responding to this. Ive given an excess amount of proof to back up my arguments. You have given zero. You are in the wrong here and have been since this thread began. The fact that you cant see that yet continue to belitle anyone who disagrees with you says a lot about you, both as a debater and as a person.

So you cant find the reason 'Immaterial' is the default you mean?

Thought so.

Heres what we actually do when we see a character portray a power with minimal limits.
-We go by what we've seen.
-We dont assume a power we see limited to things adopt every characteristic of whatever you want to categorize it as

Please show how the Geist's intangibility isnt limited to its possession

Stated to be intangible by the guidebook

Described. And Intangibility works in different ways as you know.

Shown in the show to be able to freely enter and exit matter at will

Only for its possession power, and you outright denying its a phasing Intangibility despite this being the category it would fall under.

Stated by the writers to be based on a ghost

Means diddly squat.

You are the one deluding yourself and others arguing that this is not proof of intangibility.

The Geist has an intangibility, but its only ever been shown to be limited to its possession. Unless you can prove otherwise, this is what the guidebook would be referring to (Since thats where the intangibility comes from), and the fact that it both getting hit and trying to hit directly contradict your 'logical assumption' that its intangibility is 100% passive 24/7. Also the Mask.

Everything sees via light. Unless youre proposing we remove intangibility and invisibility from all things that can see while theyre intangible and invisible, this argument is just goofy and means nothing

Wrong. Theres other ways characters can 'see' without light

Heck dont the Grimm only see people through negative emotions? Ren's semblance literally makes characters invisible to them lmao

 

[Damage3245]

Currently I'm waiting to see what DDM's response is to Firestorm.

Because the discussion above is looking fairly circular by this point.

 

[Jinx666]

@Damage3245
@Firestorm808

Can i get your opinions of

• Immaterial Intangibility being the default type of Intangibility to assume when it is unclear how it works.
• Whether it is fair to deny the notion that the Geist going against its stated 'Intangibility' (A.k.a it getting physically punched or hit in any capacity) could just be a genuine contradiction via RWBY's writing standards, and ergo bring its intangibility into question whatsoever.
• The Geist's intangibility being hard-locked to its Possession ability (As in it can only phase into things that it specifically possesses) and working like the Shihai's Quirk from MHA. Ergo this could be what the book was referring to when saying Intangible instead of assuming the immaterial type.
• Current opinions on just the Geists Mask (and possibly its claws?) being the tangible elements

^^^
Could i get the opinions on this

 

[Jinx666]

Genuinely though Yeah.

The Geist HAS shown intangibility in the show. Its just only limited to things its possessing, which from there it can stay and control with.
So why wouldnt this be what they're referring to when it comes to calling it 'intangible', rather than this nonsense abt the Geist in general being intangible

 

[DaReaperMan]

Genuinely though Yeah.

The Geist HAS shown intangibility in the show. Its just only limited to things its possessing, which from there it can stay and control with.
So why wouldnt this be what they're referring to when it comes to calling it 'intangible', rather than this nonsense abt the Geist in general being intangible

+1 assumption to your argument

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah the Geist is intangible in some degree, but its unclear how, and if anything limited to one power

Its only shown to be Intangible through the things its possessing with no other intangible qualities and traits, let alone of Immaterial

Its described as Intangible, and is very obviously referring to the Intangibility it actually shows in the series (Phasing into things it possesses)

Geist isnt a ghost, and its origin derives the same as other Grimm creatures with a form. You are assuming it cannot be struck physically when that has never been shown, quite the opposite actually, and instead using it as an excuse to give certain NPI to RWBY rather than using it as the evidence that the Geist just isnt Intangible in the way you think it is.

Once again making accusations of ulterior motives rather than actually proving your argument. Ive proven that theyre intangible, you havent proven the contrary.

How many assumptions are you going to make until it becomes blatantly just unclear?

None, because no assumptions are being made, because it is in fact blatantly clear. Once again, the one making assumptions is you.

 

[Jinx666]

+1 assumption to your argument

Why would this be an assumption when this is ALL we've seen of it?

Do we just guess how its power works without reference lol?

 

[Jinx666]

Once again making accusations of ulterior motives rather than actually proving your argument. Ive proven that theyre intangible, you havent proven the contrary.

'M-My argument is better than your argument'

None, because no assumptions are being made, because it is in fact blatantly clear. Once again, the one making assumptions is you.

Bro you've LITERALLTY just rambled on about how assumptions are the backbones of this, and all the assumptions you're making.

You LITERALLY are saying Immaterial Intangibility is the default assumption being made to it. Wdym you arent making assumptions now?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why would this be an assumption when this is ALL we've seen of it?

Do we just guess how its power works without reference lol?

Your Argument requires an added assumption. Weekly's does not

 

[Jinx666]

Your Argument requires an added assumption. Weekly's does not

Whats this added assumption exactly?

The Geist has only ever shown intangibility limited to its possession. So why is that the assumption rather than assuming its intangible in more ways with 0 proof or showings.

You genuinely dont know how debating works. You dont make up powers for something or give them capabilities to these powers they haven't shown.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Whats this added assumption exactly?

The Geist has only ever shown intangibility limited to its possession. So why is that the assumption rather than assuming its intangible in more ways with 0 proof.

A normal intangibility statement backs up general intangibility. To say it's a more limited intangibility requires one more assumption. Simple.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Whats this added assumption exactly?

That the Geist must have some unseen, unspoken ability to become tangible and we just dont know it, and that the guidebook, writers, and in-verse depictions of its abilities are all wrong and must be chocked up to writing inconsistencies.

 

[Damage3245]

That the Geist must have some unseen, unspoken ability to become tangible and we just dont know it, and that the guidebook, writers, and in-verse depictions of its abilities are all wrong and must be chocked up to writing inconsistencies.

Strictly speaking I think the argument isn't that it has some ability to become tangible; rather it is tangible ordinarily and when it phases into objects it becomes intangible to pass into them.

 

[Jinx666]

That the Geist must have some unseen, unspoken ability to become tangible and we just dont know it, and that the guidebook, writers, and in-verse depictions of its abilities are all wrong and must be chocked up to writing inconsistencies.

Except thats completely false and you've yet to understand what my Argument is? About how this is all just too unclear in general (Even though there is more proof of it being tangible than being 100% passive intangible yes)

Dodging the responsibility to show proof of the Geists intangibility outside of possession

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except thats completely false and you've yet to understand what my Argument is? About how this is all just too unclear in general (Even though there is more proof of it being tangible than being 100% passive intangible yes)

Dodging the responsibility to show proof of the Geists intangibility outside of possession

Jinx. I do not need to prove a negative. YOU are the one who has to prove that theyre not intangible, not me. YOU are the one making that claim. YOU have to prove it.

 

[Jinx666]

I dont think this Intangibility is clear enough to assume its a 100% passve intangibility, especially when the show contradicts it.

My argument now is that the intangibility is only limited to things its possessing. This is the main power of the Geist. Can you prove please, how the Geist is intangible in any ways outside of its possession, cause otherwise this is what is being referred to in the guidebook.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Strictly speaking I think the argument isn't that it has some ability to become tangible; rather it is tangible ordinarily and when it phases into objects it becomes intangible to pass into them.

To be fair, that still takes an additional assumption

 

[Jinx666]

Jinx. I do not need to prove a negative. YOU are the one who has to prove that theyre not intangible, not me. YOU are the one making that claim. YOU have to prove it.

Bro actually in a reverse world or smthn.