Tier 2 Destiny

Previously, the main issue with tier 2 ratings for those such as Oryx was doubt being cast due to his throne world being referred to as a "Cyst universe", and there being not much else to go off of. However, we have been able to find many statements about both the Hive and the Vex that render this outdated, and as such propose an upgrade. First, the Hive stuff.

What can be ascertained from these cards is that if anything, his throne world merely being a "Cyst" universe would be the less consistent terminology. Throne Spaces are consistently referred to as full universes, they can affect reality, they have their own concepts, laws, time, etc, are large enough at least for multiple people to pull stars and stuff around, and Dul Incaru is even able to manifest herself as a 4D structure. The terms cyst and pocket can easily be in reference to the Ascendant Realm as a whole, which given that it is an offshoot of The Darkness which is also transcendent over the Vex, could easily just be far larger than a standard universe. On the topic of the Vex...

The point here is that Vex simulations should not be dismissed due to being called simulations, as they have clearly demonstrated to be able to affect reality in a meaningful way. As such, this should extend to statements referring to the Vault of Glass (trillio or infinity timelines) and Infinite Forest (infinitely many realities, or trillions), giving some characters solid tier 2 ratings when in Ascendant/Vex space.

Many thanks to the Destiny discord group chat for helping out immensely for this. If you want to be named just tell me.

I see this has finally dropped. Agreed.

Hey

that's pretty good.

I'm glad you guys are done, so, I can finally do the profiles without debating the tier level kek.

Really miss playing Destiny...


Looks pretty good so far.

Seems legit

When will Wokistan's crusade of making Destiny one of the most broken verses stop? Who the hell knows.

Good job as usual. I agree!

Does this only affect Oryx in his Throne world or will it effect his first key?

Tier 2 stuff is for Throne World/Vex space.

He can still Take in key 1 as well as shove his Throne World into reality with key 1, but it's not really AP for his apparitions.

His kids just don't have a key for in reality.

Ah. So it's Tier 2 hax or just straight AP? A bit confused for a moment here.

Tier 2 is everything in key 2. His ability to Take is the same across both keys because it just calls on The Darkness (though it's more passive in key 2).

In key 1, he ends up with 4D Taking hax (which he already had), but in key 2 he has 4D AP along with the hax.

Ah okay, just wanted to make sure I got it right.

looks legit

Finally all the work done over the last few months comes to fruition, looks gucci Woki.

Hello. It is me, the fun police. I guess I'll cover what I think of each of these things, individually. Keep in mind these are just my current opinions and they're subject to change if I see better evidence.

Hive Support

• I do not think the phrase "mind cosmos" is sufficient proof of universal size, especially when the full sentence is "I shall keep my glorious mind cosmos inside a titanic warship."

• The statement about Mara has nothing to do with the size of a throne world. It seems to be entirely about the spaces between throne worlds being empty, and thus without anything else to be defined by, Mara "has nothing but what she can carry."

• See above. This is just support for throne worlds having their own laws and rules, which has already been established.

• The statement about Mara being absorbed also has nothing to do with size or scale of Oryx's throne world. It's just a display of powers.

• Just being 4-D with nothing beyond that is no longer treated as a showing of power or scale. This does not work as support for universal scale, but does add to Higher-Dimensional Existence/Manipulation.

• "He extended the pocket universe of His throne world into our cosmos, and with it, He destroyed His foes." Pocket universe. This quote does not remotely seem to imply it being the same scale as the actual universe.

• The Hiraks quote really doesn't seem to show anything beside him crafting his own throne world.

• Being a 4-D space of below universal scale does not automatically scale you to Tier 2. That is why each throne world needs statements or suggestions of being such, in the first place.

• Control of the spatial and temporal laws of a throne world is space manipulation, time manipulation, and law manipulation. It is not evidence for any sort of larger size.

• This seems to be a misreading of the quote. "Now I fly between green-black suns in the labyrinth beyond Crota's god-star. This is the Overworld, the Sea of Screams, where the throne-universes of the great Hive fester in eternal majesty." The green-black suns exist beyond Crota's throne world. All the throne worlds exist in this one ascendant realm/Sea of Screams/Overworld, along with these suns. Obviously not official, but I am definitely not the only one who is reading it like this, as Destinypedia also mentions the "suns" being a reference point within the Ascendant Realm itself, not Crota's throne world.

• "Cyst-universe" would suggest against full universal size, especially when these smaller worlds exist within what seems to be an actual, full parallel universe.

• Ghost's quote is also about the power of the Hive to make words into an actual power as opposed to any sort of size for these dimensions.

In short, nothing in this section actually seems to suggest any sort of upgrade. A lot of it is entirely unrelated to size, one of the quotes about using "cosmos" to suggest a full universe even mentions Oryx putting said cosmos inside a big ship, and far more of it relates to how the Hive's power works than anything else.


Vex Support

• "My Hidden operatives tell me the Cabal have caused some kind of anomaly inside the Infinite Forest. Multiple squads from your first visit have been copied. Osiris is… concerned. You don't have to, but if you go in there, make sure the Cabal don't leave with any Vex tech." Unless I'm mistaken here, the key factor is that the Cabal invasion had to be there first in order to be copied. Would these not be different from random simulations that could not otherwise simply leave the forest?

• I don't think anyone disagrees that the Vex simulations are real enough to kill, but the statement "The Vex are simulating reality in here. Brute forcing the future. And before you ask: everything in here IS real enough to kill you." is in regards to characters who have walked straight in to said simulations.

• All we know about the Vex's origin is that we have no idea where exactly they're from. I don't see how this requires them to originate from one of their own simulations, which makes less sense.

• "Existing in multiple realities" really doesn't mean much, here.

• I think this is missing the point of the scene and why the Vex simulating Guardians is dangerous. Osiris is arguing that even though the Vex are incapable of imaginative thinking, this does not make them "irrelevant", because they are working on new simulations. If they simulate Guardians, they can learn to kill them again and again until they understand them and the Light, perfectly. Then it's impossible to fight back, as the Vex know them better than they know themselves, as well as having a better understanding of how to use the Light. "They produce perfectly simulated Guardians that they can kill and resurrect a million times until they know the real deal better than we know ourselves. They simulate the Traveler's Light. And they use that to kill us all."

• Quira is not a normal Vex unit. It was designed to be able to at least somewhat understand Sword Logic, and thus try to take over the ascendant realm. It is capable of manipulating reality there, just not nearly to the extent of Oryx.

I do not believe that Vex simulations are exactly the same as virtual simulations, in real life. If you die in a simulation in the real world, the experience doesn't kill you. Real world simulations aren't made by futuristic robots with a higher understanding of space time. My issue is in regards to assuming that because the Vex can simulate multiple realities, they for some reason can turn this into general Tier 2 power, which seems to run counter to their actual goal and showings. I do not believe that because they are able to simulate trillions to infinite possible realities (which they do in order to better try and understand the universe), this means they are actually 2-B to 2-A, and that beings who scale to them are thus 2-B to 2-A. This seems like something that the setting itself cannot and does not support. Outside these simulations, the Vex are never treated as having such power nor being able to seemingly create theoretically infinite resources, and even within them, Axis Minds themselves are not all powerful and completely in control.

I'll respond to things in greater detail tomorrow when I can use my computer, but I feel like with the vex stuff in particular you seem to be missing that these ratings would only apply to these characters in vex/Hive controlled spaces. In both cases their goal would be to extrapolate this sort of power to reality, and they've succeeded in certain areas (VoG, Dresdnaught), but this doesn't contradict them wirlding that amount of power in their own areas in any way. Think of it as akin to the warp keys for daemon primarchs. Magnus can't exactly snap the materium in half with his mind, but in the warp and similar places like the deeper reaches of the Eye of Terror he is able to wield tier 2 power. It's a similar idea to that, in my mind.

Also on the Dreadnaught thing, this ignores how the Dreadnaught clearly is not working off of normal size laws, considering how even if one doesn't want to take full universes there's stars and stuff inside these throne spaces rife for the picking. It's more a hole into the Ascendant Plane as opposed to some sort of box hard capping his throne at moon level, and he's unique in being the only one able to draw part of the Ascendant Plane into reality like that.

I don't really doubt the power difference when in their home turf, and I understand the Immaterium parallels with the Ascendant Realm, but with the throne world my issue is more in terms of actual scale. Phrases like "pocket universe", "cyst universe", and "god-star" do not lead me to believe each of these is the same size as the normal universe. These aren't natural universes where we can just assume such, and we don't have a hell of a lot to go on that would suggest these are all space-times of the same scale as our own. However, if there is something that clearly defines throne worlds at such a size, I genuinely don't have a problem with said upgrade.

The Vex stuff I have more of an issue with, and I don't really know if the Immaterium comparison is apt, there. For something like the Infinite Forest, we're not talking about something like the Warp or Ascendant Realm, but a series of simulated realities generated by a planet-sized prediction engine that exists for the purpose of finding out the best tactics to and paths to take in the real universe. If we want to agree that this in no way affects the Vex's power outside of something like the Forest, then I can get that, but I take issue with then scaling said simulation to people like Oryx, when I'm not even sure if it should truly count as a showing of Tier 2 power in the first place, or at least not power that is somehow combat applicable.

Edit: Wow phone cut out several sentences but **** me, I guess. I'm too tired to fix it and I think my point is still the same.

Yeah since this requires some modicum of effort and I can't just quickly deal with it like vs threads I'm not gonna respond probably till thebweekend due to having a research paper to write. Inb4 this one also drags out super long

That's completely fine, man. I don't even have a consistent schedule of when I'm going to be online, so it's not like you're keeping me waiting.

As for the Vex:

Crota cutting into Vex space shows that Vex Sims are less literal simulations and much more akin to the Ascendant Space occupied by the Hive. The Vex gained their power off of worshipping The Darkness, and the spaces in which they maintain hegemony are fundamentally similar to the Ascendant ones. It's the same principle of being able to define the laws of reality within this Ascendant Space. A good example of this is The Black Garde, which is dethatched from regular space and time and wasn't on any known maps that the Ghost had access to the first time. It has the weird future and past Vex in it and in the Undying Mind strike, the Undying Mind is attempting to detatch it from reality again, making it into Vex dominated space. Oryx's influence can also spread freely here like when he took about half of it including the Undying Mind, and it's even referred to as endless. It is clear that it is not mere illusion, and yet it also in its native state doesn't properly abide by temporal laws, a trait shared with Vex space and Ascendant Space. The way I see it, the Vex sims are merely another understanding of the Ascendant space that composes The Darkness, as opposed to the Hive and Awoken view of Throne worlds.

The Cabal thing was more showing that things can be pulled out of vex simulations into not vex simulations/ascendant realm. If this couldn't happen and all that was within was purely simulant, the Cabal shouldn't be able to have a possibility of leaving the forest with a simulated map.

Mercury not being infinitely large doesn't really matter, because it's more akin to the Vex's Dreadnaught. It's an opening into the immaterial space where they're at their apex, simultaneously containing it via not abiding by standard spatial laws and not truly containing it. Even if that doesn't cut it, The Vex understand other spatial dimensions anyways so nothing really stops them from just setting their realities on some alternate axis normally imperceptible to save room.

Also for Vex stuff being real, Skolas formed a plan to steal their tech and use it to spawn infinite falle. This shouldn't happen if the timelines the Vex access with their powers aren't real, as this goal wouldn't get Skolas anywhere. This mission also talks about how some of the Vex can fade in and out of our timeline, which sets the "simulations" once again on a similar level to reality.

Quria cannot be dismissed as Sword Logic, as the lines of "Quria's trying the religious tactics it evolved in the Hive manifold. But even on those terms, Oryx is strong, so strong. Quria won't be able to protect its gates much longer. indicate that its manipulations have been already thwarted by Oryx's far superior power. The thing she creates is explicitly stated to be a simulation and not her manipulating the THrone via the Sword Logic, because she can't even do that with Oryx around. The environment itself resisted her analysis with spite, I don't think it will be able to do something like clone baby Oryx when even it trying to understand the place it's in is being actively opposed.

I don't see how this contradicts their goals either. The Vex want to understand that which they cannot, The Darkness. They can already have power in Darkness affiliated space of a tier 2 scale and yet want to assimilate the material world into their domain as well. Other powers are at work in the material world like the Light, Hive Gods, Callus, hell the Darkness itself even has a physical presence of some sort and they aren't even all powerful on the ascendant level shown by Oryx's family, so I don't see why them not yet being able to extrapolate this power to reality is inconsistent with them wielding tier 2 power in their own space. Supporting this is how most of their tier 2 stuff (Templar, Gorgons, Oracles, Atheon, Panoptes, probably Quria) can't really leave Vex dominated space, likening them to Ascendant Hive space. If anything this interpretation is more consistent with their goal, demonstrated by the Vault of Glass. The VOG is a pocket of reality where the Vex have won, and it behaves like their simulations would with them being able to rewrite it at a whim. It was said to be a triumph for the vanguard that their power was confined there, which shows that the Vex were trying to expand their sphere of influence to wield far greater amounts of power in reality. They already can just generate resources forever, which is why the Cabal considered fighting against them (and the Guardians) on mars hopeless unless they could learn some Hive tricks, why the FWC thinks war will be eternal (they're obsessed with the Vex), why Osiris said that the way things were going they'd need to oppose the Vex for longer than forever, and why Skolas wanted to do basically exactly this, they just can't manifest the real extreme stuff like the Gorgons and seek to rectify that. The Vex don't really need a reason to just conquer more beyond the more having stuff they don't yet understand, and actually being repelled would only bolster this as it did when they got blocked by the Hive and turned to the Darkness. After their near miss with Oryx material reality should intrigue them even more, if anything.

Scaling happens because the Vex can be challenged even in their own domains. Oryx's kids stalemated them for a while because they'd lose power in Vex areas, but the Vex couldn't just effortlessly perma delete them. Saint-14 took centuries to kill, because he was so powerful that they just couldn't do shit without a specific anti Saint-14 weapon, and Oryx just testing out his power was able to threaten the VoG timelines and cause the Vex to realize that even as a collective their might was less than his, and the only thing that could save the Vex from him was possibly some of the stuff they couldn't predict or understand (Guardians). Vex space equating to Ascendant space also helps.

I'm in agreement with Azathoth at a glance, will take a better look later when free.

One thing for sure is Saint-14 shouldn't scale in any way, yeah it took centuries to kill him and he amassed thousands of dead vex in his tomb. But I don't see anything that proves every single vex is channel 2-B to 2-A power will their basic energy blast. Hell this implies his shotgun scales as well which then scales to the guardian since they have it now.

Also the lore pretty much states the only reason he survived so long was because of The Light which the vex finally figured out a way to drain from him after a shit ton of time.

"I never found Osiris, but I've killed enough Vex to end a war. And they, in turn, struck a fatal blow: they completed a Mind with the sole function to drain the Light from me. It worked very well. Don't worry (not that you worry much). It took them centuries to build, keyed to the unique frequency of my Light. And I sit atop its shattered husk."

Just as a note that this thread is probably gonna take ages

I'm pretty sure that over centuries of not being able to get rid of him at least once they'd have tried a thing that has 2-B levels of power. Keep in mind they also managed to stalemate Hive kids who've killed Oryx's ascendant form before, so they clearly have weapons like that somewhere.

Guardian weapons are already said to get most of the power from the wielders as opposed to from having enough propellant in the casings to crack moons in half or whatever, and these levels of power aren't present in the material world anyways.

I'm used to waiting decades by now lol.

1. But we don't have any proof of this, the lore specifically states that they spent centuries trying to build the devices and then radio in on his light frequency whatever that means lmao. I'm pretty much the light doesn't have the same properties as the power the hive uses. Also they probably did kill him but remember the Light aksi has pretty much infinite ressurection.

2. Don't the weapons have a special effect on it when they're being empowered by the light? Seeing as Void subclass has a weapon buff I suppose that covers my weapon point.

The Light and Darkness actually have some similarities, but it's not the most relevant thing. You don't need some card to go "and then Saint-14 was shot by a missile that could destroy a trillion timelines" for this sort of thing. We know the Vex have stuff at 2-B, and that none of their stuff could kill him until they made the weapon specifically to counter his Light. I'm pretty sure that most would consider that enough for a possibly rating, which is also supported by him being one of the strongest guardians ever and being regarded as exceptional by the Ghost of the guy who killed Oryx.

If that wasn't how it worked then we'd have tier 5/4 Cabal Bolter and Wire Rifle, since we can use those as exotics. If that wasn't how it worked then the Red Legion invasion also shouldn't have been nearly as bad since our weapons would have stayed incredibly powerful.

I had typed up a comment to address some of Azzy's content, but it got wiped so I'll assist with the current conversation instead.

It should also be noted that with his Light, Saint-14 also cut through the Infinite Forest itself. He definitely would have been regarded as a massive threat for the Vex to have dedicated a specific Mind to deal with him.

Guardians are also specifically known to have a deep connection with their specific weapons. Look at Shin Malphur and Dredgen Yor, just as an example. The specific demiurge abilities of the Guardian stem from their weapons as well, which makes sense.

As Wokistan also mentioned, this power only scales to Saint-14 inside of the Vex realms. He does not have that level of power outside of them.

So one of the things I want to establish as consistent in Destiny is that there are universal or other realms of cosmic size that exist either transcendant to are simultaneously alongside the material universe. In some cases like the Vex, it's implied that their planes transcend the material universe to the point that they exist in multiple timelines besides the material one we exist in.

Here Mara refers to the Awoken homeland, the Distributary, as a universe.

"You know yourselves," she says. "Let me tell you of your cosmos. We live in a spatially infinite, isotropic universe 12.1 billion years old. Its metallicity is ideal for life and for the spread of technological civilizations. In time, the distance between all points in the universe will contract to zero, and the cosmos will collapse into a singularity, to be reborn in fire. There will be no end to eternity here."

Furthermore, it is stated that Mara has survived the primordial chaos before the birth of the universe.

Oryx's throne world tries to tear her body and psyche into a quintillion screaming pieces, but Mara has survived the inchoate primordial chaos before space and time. She has retained her selfhood through far worse than this—and she has patience for eons. Eris will succeed. The Guardians will play their part. When the power in this world is free for the taking, Mara will take it, not as the victor taking spoils, but as a scavenger takes a prize component for her masterwork.

This statement also seems to suggest that there are an innumerable amount of these spaces in relation to the main material universe.


Numberless are the spaces that surround the universe. Subordinate and superordinate are their relationships to the intrinsic world-that-is-only-itself. We pass now through analogy space that will reify what was once subject into object. That power I held, which was agonist to a mother's rapprochement, will be realized and reified.

The clash between the Traveller and the Darkness was referred to as a clash of infinite beings which ripped apart the space-time of the universe itself to create the Distributary.

She feels a contest. A battle fought, an equilibrium reached: not a truce, but an infinite limit, like an equation dividing by zero, a collision of two violent eternities. Mara queries Yang Liwei for telemetry and her sensorium fills with the terrified scream of gravitational instruments. She howls too, a feral sound, ecstatic and lost: a wolf baying at the stars. She knows what's happening. Too much power has gathered here. The universe is appalled by the paradox. Nothing that has glimpsed this collision of infinitudes can be allowed to escape. The cosmos must censor its embarrassment. It must sequester the anomaly.

So this means that there are other places of cosmic size at least in the Destiny universe that exist, so at least there's a basis within the cosmology for this happening. I should be able to elaborate some more with the next comment I make which should give more Vex arguments and clarifications.

Azzy, can you elaborate on your regarding 4-D because I think below and I would appreciate the clarification ƒæì

I think you meant Higher-Dimensional Manipulation because Higher-Dimensional Existence still more solid evidence and would have went against his points as evidence is also needed. Also, if being 4-D evidence isn't stated to be enough for Higher-Dimensional Existence then I don't see why Higher-Dimensional Manipulation would qualify also.

Bumping this, cant let it die ovo. Also, seems fine upon first and second glances.

Bump

seems fine to me

Bump, many of us would like to see this concluded and I agree with Wok, for now atleast.

Azathoth is gonna take a while

That reminds me though, I gotta type a response to the Hive stuff.

Darn, hopefully it isnt for too long, but I wont bother nor rush Azathoth as it would be very rude of me to do so.

Also Wok, if its not too rude to ask, when will you make the Destiny 2 Exotic/Raid weapons hax blog? Im rather excited to see what insane stuff Destiny 2 weapons add to the table, if their haxy that is.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Wokistan/Destiny

It's a work in progress, but is just gonna be on the file for the player character. Gonna adapt D1 guns into it too.

Good luck Wok, can't wait to see what you bring to the table with Destiny 2 Exotics!

Bump

Well let's get this thing going again, I suppose.

So the biggest thing we have to prove relates to the size of the Hive Ascendant Plane's Throne Worlds. Azzy's problem seems to be in the points of the terminology that's used in connection with the worlds which seems to have him believe the throne worlds are smaller than we believe.

It should be noted that Wokistan has already made a sufficient reply to the Vex issues, and I have made a profile which proves that the Distributary is a universe which exists in parallel with the material world as well.

Here, Crota's throne world is referred to as a legitimate universe.

It's directly stated as such, and it is also alluded to that there are multiple world or "netherrealms" which would also imply that there other throne worlds of similar size.

In the following entry, Savathun states that there her brother ruled over an infinitely sized space.

"Good," said Savath├╗n. "It's a law of the High Coven that one's sinister plan should be incomprehensible to a Thrall. Do you know why we've come here? If I am to take my tribute from the keeping of secrets… where else are secrets better kept than beneath the event horizon? My brother ruled the flat space of infinity, but I prefer these tide-washed depths… and in time, I shall make them my dominion."

Savathun is directly speaking in this lore entry to how she is attempting to change how the Sword Logic. Her brother wielding the logic of the sword and killing which in his space was an infinite flat space in comparison.

Next, I'd like to clear up some misunderstandings about the Sea of Screams, Overworld, etc. Just so everyone is on the same page, this is a link to the Hellmouth card where all these terms are introduced.

Now I fly between green-black suns in the labyrinth beyond Crota's god-star. This is the Overworld, the Sea of Screams, where the throne-universes of the great Hive fester in eternal majesty. I move among them. I map the shapes and connections of this world.

First of all, this makes mention that there are green and black suns beyond Crota's Throne World, meaning that we are dealing with a cosmic sized space here. This in any way does not limit the size or scope of the Ascendant Plane or Crota's Throne World as a whole.

There has been a general assertion that these suns are necessary to navigate the Sea of Screams, but that is just not the case in general. It is more likely that this only refers to the realms directly in relation to Crota's realms. If you notice in the Dreaming City, we actually meet Toland in the Ascendant Plane there. Contrary to what Destinypedia states, these reference points don't exist everywhere. They are nowhere to be found anywhere in the Dreaming City sections where you fight in the Ascendant Plane during quests, strikes, or the Last Wish raid. This leads to the conclusion that the Ascendant Plane is actually far more complex with various regions and realms that have their own nature.

To add on to my previous point, there is also further evidence to suggest that the green nature of Crota's realm is by his own design. Of course, there are mentions of other stellar bodies in the Books of Sorrow from within the Ascendant Plane.

Here, the Daughters of Oryx use a pull a star down from the sky within Oryx's Throne World and there is no mention of the star being green.

At another point in Oryx's Throne where he seeks to punish Crota for his ineptitude, Oryx weaponizes a black star instead to attack Crota.

This makes sense because we understand that Throne Worlds adhere only to the rules and laws of the being that created them. Simply because something is called a different colored star doesn't make it unreliable or anything. Crota likes the color green apparently, as it's predominant throughout his realm. Both his minions and himself are colored this way as well all all of the geography. He chooses to represent himself this way, just as Oryx chose to be seen in the giant form he chose.

Since the Ascendant Plane has room for these other new spaces, I'd like to also make mention that the terms "cyst" and "pocket" universe are more likely in reference to the Ascendant Plane as a whole which is a structure that exists removed from the physical plane, so the size of these realms don't affect the physical world at all. As discussed above, Hive texts make reference that there are several of these realms existing together.

Secondly, I'd like to also elaborate that Oryx taking his Throne World inside of his ship is actually a huge feat for him rather than an anti feat for anything the size of the throne worlds. Normally as we know, Throne Worlds exist just naturally within the Ascendant Plane. Oryx and his sisters would cross between each other's worlds and kill themselves over and over again for thousands upon thousands of years which built their power. Oryx moving his Throne World and into the material plane meant that his sisters could no longer easily access it to invade. Furthermore as we see it weaponized against the Awoken during the Battle of Saturn, it gives the Dreadnaught an incredibly overpowering weapon as well. Oryx has to constantly keep his Throne World here by his own effort, and he even manages to do so while incredibly starved of tribute because his entire court is killed.

Hopefully this clears up any confusion with the terminology and cosmology that may have happened.

Seems fine.

That seems mostly fine by me.