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Revising the Naruto God Tiers (Staff Only)

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@Alex; thank you for the info. If we divide that result by two like we do currently to account for both Hagoromo and Hamura, then the result for each of them is 274.5 Exatons (Moon level+).

Which would mean we could consistently scale the God Tiers from four 5-C calcs.
 
@Mindovin; Currently we scale Hagoromo to only half the result of the feat since the Six Paths CT requires two people to create it, and possibly to move it.

The original account of the event given by Obito at the Kage Summit isn't trustworthy since it omits a lot of key details like the existence of Kaguya and Hamura.
 
This calc is about entirely different feat though. Hamura doesn't need to do anything in this one. For this reasons I said it need to be discussed in context wise.
 
This is the same feat we're discussing, isn't it? We've always scaled both Hamura and Hagoromo to half of the value for moving the Moon. Unless you have some evidence showing that only Hagoromo is responsible for moving the Moon?
 
@Celestial Judge; this is a staff-only thread. Please leave.
 
@Damage

No Hagoromo and Hamura seal Kaguya together.

This feat is about after Hagoromo splits 10-Tails, creates 9 Tailed Beasts and sealing the Gedo Mazo into the Moon. He somehow seales the husk and hurls the Moon into the sky.

This seems strange and missing somethings imo and should be discussed with the knowledgeable members in another thread.

@Celestial

We're not talking about 10-Tails' sealing into Hagoromo.
 
Mindovin said:
@Damage
No Hagoromo and Hamura seal Kaguya together.

This feat is about after Hagoromo splits 10-Tails, creates 9 Tailed Beasts and sealing the Gedo Mazo into the Moon. He somehow seales the husk and hurls the Moon into the sky.

This seems strange and missing somethings imo and should be discussed with the knowledgeable members in another thread.
Click to expand...
The reason it seems strange is because there have been retcons in the story and the actual events have been explained differently in later portions of the story.

At first it was presented as Hagoromo himself sealing the 10-Tails and throwing the Moon into the sky.

Then it was revealed that Hagoromo and Hamura both fought the 10-Tails.

Then it is revealed that they both fought Kaguya and sealed her into the Moon with the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

So I can see why this would be a bit confusing.

@Celestial Judge; they shouldn't be commenting either. Yours is particularly bad though because you're also wrong in what you're posting, on top of being needlessly rude.
 
@Celestial Judge

It is probably best if you stop commenting here.
 
I'm not being rude at all. I just told stated you were using headcanon. Which you were.

Headcano (or head canon, head-canon) is a fan's personal, idiosyncratic interpretation of canon, such as habits of a character, the backstory of a character, or the nature of relationships between characters.

The original account of the event given by Obito at the Kage Summit isn't trustworthy since it omits a lot of key details like the existence of Kaguya and Hamura.
 
@Damage

At first I questioned the calc in context wise in the same blog then in his wall.

Calc isn't about Hagoromo and Hamura sealing Kaguya.

The feat in question happened decades after Kaguya's sealing. @BMW calced the hurling the Moon into the space that make it go into the current positio not Hagoromo creating the moo, hurling it away and it go into the current position.

One of the thing is I don't remember is there any mention that Hagoromo and Hamura send the Moon into the space after the sealing of Kaguya or it waited. I'm asking context wise thread because I don't know remember The Last clearly and don't have the time to watch it and maybe there is info in one of the novels which I didn't read most of them.
 
Okay. Well, if anything comes up that will be useful to know.

For now I've taken what Alex said and put it into a calc blog post.
 
why dont we use anime timeframe for hagoromo and hamura feats

yes i know its filler but its better than our guesswork

so i had to address this cuz we use anime timeftame aslong feats does not contradict with manga

and this feat also does not contradict with manga

manga didnt give us any info or timeframe
 
@Omimi; this is a staff-only thread.

And as you've said, the reason why we don't use it is because it is filler.
 
staff-only thread? than why so many normal user commenting here

anyway it my last comment

filler still better than fans assumption

and naruto sasuke feat in anime took less than 10 sec and it not filler so u shouldn't have any problem with that
 
@Omimi; we also don't use anime timeframes because of Cinematic Time. You may want to read up on that.

As for why many normal users were commenting early on, it's because the thread was changed to be staff-only halfway through.

Now please, let that be your last comment here.
 
Yes, please let the staff handle this. Thank you.
 
As I said above, it appears to take more than a few seconds for the CT to grow as large as a few kilometers across - meaning it would take longer to grow Moons-zied. And even in the time it took Black Zetsu and Naruto to have a conversation it didn't appear to grow at an absurdly fast pace.

I thought speech time wasn't a good measure of timeframe? And don't you find it a bit odd that Madara's feat, which created numerous meteors kilometers across, only took a few seconds yet SPCT, a much more powerful version of the CT, took around the same amount of time to barely grow a fer km? Maybe it's that manga equivalent to "cinematic time" in which events appear slower than they actually are.


The potential energy version doesn't supplied high ends or low ends; it's just a single result.

PE = KE so even if it "just supplies a number" it doesn't mean that number isn't a "high or low end" since those can be extrapolated from the value.

I can't find any reason for the timeframe deduced from the potential energy version of the calc to be unrealistic other than some people just not wanting to believe it.

I've given a couple reasons yet you either disagree or don't believe them. For once, precedence with similar feats suggests such a timeframe is unrealistic given that both Pein and Madara formed their CT in moments despite the scales of both being massively different.

Nine minutes from start to finish for a celestial object the size of the Moon doesn't sound long to me.

Odd, it sounds a bit long to me considering precedent of similar feats. The basis of support for your calc really only seems to be that is just uses plain numbers, however, that, again, doesn't make it more accurate. The extrapolated time value simply doesn't work when you consider that Naruto has traveled comparable distances in short periods of time and similar feats being formed in similarly short timeframes despite the massive difference in scale between them. What seems to matter more is simply the amount of chakra put into the CT which only affects its scale, not necessarily its time.
 
> I thought speech time wasn't a good measure of timeframe?

Not a good measure of a solid timeframe, but I'd say it depends on context. If we don't have a good reason to believe the timeframe is limited then a conversation may last as long as you'd expected it to.

> And don't you find it a bit odd that Madara's feat, which created numerous meteors kilometers across, only took a few seconds yet SPCT, a much more powerful version of the CT, took around the same amount of time to barely grow a fer km? Maybe it's that manga equivalent to "cinematic time" in which events appear slower than they actually are.

Not really, no. It may be that Madara wanted to form his Chibaku Tensei's quicker, or that the events appeared faster than they actually are and his feat didn't take a few seconds.

> PE = KE so even if it "just supplies a number" it doesn't mean that number isn't a "high or low end" since those can be extrapolated from the value.

There isn't a low end of high end in the context of the potential energy calc alone. The only reason that would change is if you made assumptions on how long you think the feat actually took.

> For once, precedence with similar feats suggests such a timeframe is unrealistic given that both Pein and Madara formed their CT in moments despite the scales of both being massively different.

As I mentioned up above, I don't see how that's a relevant factor. There isn't some rule stating all Chibaku Tensei are formed over the same timeframe. And the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is a much greater scale than either feat.

> The basis of support for your calc really only seems to be that is just uses plain numbers, however, that, again, doesn't make it more accurate.

Less assumptions do usually make a calc more accurate. And that isn't the only reason; it's also more consistent with the other calcs for the God Tiers that we have so far.

> The extrapolated time value simply doesn't work when you consider that Naruto has traveled comparable distances in short periods of time and similar feats being formed in similarly short timeframes despite the massive difference in scale between them.

That doesn't make the 20 second timeframe you've estimated more believable. Naruto traveling thousands of kilometers over a few minutes sounds perfectly fine to me.

If you're going to assert that the kinetic energy version of the calc is better to use, then you need a solid timeframe with a solid justification behind it.

Right now 20 seconds is just pulled from thin air.
 
That would probably be good.

Right now from what I can tell there are two ways of rating the God Tiers, first one is using these four calcs:

Pretty close together and consistent.

Or the second one; we try estimating a timeframe for Naruto's and Sasuke's SPCT which could be up to 5-B depending on how much of a high end we want to go with.

Personally I think the safest approach is the former. I'll draft up a scaling guide to show what value each character would scale to as best as I can figure out.
 
Playing the safe card seem fine to me, the problem this whole stuff brought in my mind is that the timeframe calculation is also legit if you find a proper timeframe, and i think people will still push some CT calcs with timeframe regardless the conclusion of this thread.
 
I also think that the safer approach seems better, but that you should contact some administrators and discussion moderators to take part here via their message walls. Maybe Promestein as well.
 
Well, the last point I will make is that Naruto returned to his team to tell them that the sealing was complete. It wouldn't make sense for him to have left as soon as he had punched Zetsu since he would have no way of knowing if the sealing had been completed successfully if he left before it did. I think it's fine to assume he stayed and waited for it to be completed before going back.
 
@Jvando; I can picture Naruto staying in place for a little while after punching Black Zetsu up to SPCT, sure. However considering the sheer size of the crater left behind, I don't think it makes sense for him to wait there in the same place until the entire Moon had formed.
 
Thank you for the comment Ugarik.

For what it is worth, I've spoken briefly with DontTalkDT on his message wall he states that he prefers to avoid guesses on timeframes.

With this in mind I think we should go ahead with revising the God Tiers.
 
I trust DontTalk's and Ugarik's senses of judgement regarding calculations.
 
Okay. I'll draw up a quick list of what each character should scale to based on the current scaling chains.
 
Here are the new ratings, majority of them are Moon level+ while a couple will be Moon level:

Sasuke Uchiha (Part II) (Rinnegan): 201.705 Exatons (Moon level)

Sasuke Uchiha (New Era): >281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Naruto Uzumaki (Part II) (Six Paths Chakra Mode): 201.705 Exatons (Moon level)

Naruto Uzumaki (New Era) (Kyuubi Chakra Sage Mode): 281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Naruto Uzumaki (New Era) (Six Paths Chakra Mode): >281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Madara Uchiha (Six Paths Madara + Rinne Sharingan): >201.705 Exatons (Moon level)

Shinju (Jübi) (Complete): 274.495 Exatons (Moon level+)

Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki: 274.495 Exatons (Moon level+)

Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki (Spirit): 403.41 Exatons (Moon level+)

Hamura Ōtsutsuki: 274.495 Exatons (Moon level+)

Kaguya Ōtsutsuki: >274.495 Exatons (Moon level+)

Toneri Ōtsutsuki (Tenseigan Chakra Mode): 281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki (Base): >281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki (Kinshiki Absorbed): >>281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Kinshiki Ōtsutsuki: >281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Delta (Boruto): >281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Jige (Karma): >281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Jige (Ōtsutsuki Form): >>281.35 Exatons (Moon level+)

Most of these profiles are currently locked.
 
Okay. If you write a list of the exact page titles for all of the profiles that I need to unlock, with no extra text, I can handle it for you with my automated script.
 
Here are the locked profiles. Less than I thought actually:

Sasuke Uchiha (Part II)

Sasuke Uchiha (New Era)

Naruto Uzumaki (Part II)

Naruto Uzumaki (New Era)

Madara Uchiha

Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Toneri Ōtsutsuki
 
I have unlocked them. Tell me here when you are done.
 
@Damage, the Hagoromo feat scales to him alone and shouldn't be split in half between him and Hamura. He alone "launched" the Moon into orbit. He and Hamura, however, created the moon together. There's a difference
 
@Jvando; I was going by the previous justification on his profile. We've scaled Hamura and Hagoromo this way ever since it was revealed that the two of them created the Moon together - but I do think there are some issues with them and their backstory.

I was going to bring it up as a separate issue.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Jvando; I was going by the previous justification on his profile. We've scaled Hamura and Hagoromo this way ever since it was revealed that the two of them created the Moon together - but I do think there are some issues with them and their backstory.

I was going to bring it up as a separate issue.
Click to expand...
Alright then
 
@Antvasima; the profiles have all been updated. The ones need to be locked can be.

This thread can be locked. I'll be gather scans to create a thread for revising the ratings for Hagoromo & Hamura.
 
I have locked the profiles, but have all the outdated versus matchup results been removed from them and their opponents?
 
Hmm, there's one match-up that needs to be removed from Momoshiki.

Three match-ups need to be removed from Madara.

One match-up needs to be removed from New Era Naruto and New Era Sasuke.

I'm guessing almost all of Kaguya's match-ups are outdated now.

Forgot to consider the verses match-ups.
 
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