Revising the Naruto God Tiers (Staff Only)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Jvando seems to be making sense, but so do Damage's points.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Words per minute isn't allowed anymore.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll post a response later today.

 

[KLOL506]

Words per minute might not be allowed, but Jvando's points on time-frame seem to make sense, like DDM said, but Damage also makes some good points. Honestly though we should wait for Jvando to reply again and Tata's opinion really is needed here right now.

 

[Jvando]

I honestly had no idea that words per minute were not allowed since I guess I missed that thread. Regardless, without the numerical value, my point is till the same.

 

[Mindovin]

Iiir, that thread never concluded but ─▒ don't agree WPM base on translation.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree that the calculation I created isn't inherently more correct - your own calc is mathematically fine - but I believe that requiring less assumptions makes the calc more preferable to use, and since what counts as the most realistic timeframe can be a bit subjective I believe that Potential Energy is better than needing to assume different timeframes for Kinetic Energy. But sure, if there are conflicts with the story then there would be problems.

While your calc does cover what appears to be 3 to 4 panels, my calc covers a total of 34 panels (not counting the 1 flashback panel). My calc is for the entire creation of the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. Looking at the pages, I can see why someone would jump to the conclusion that the feat must have occurred over a short period of time. But reading through it, I don't really have a problem with accepting that the total creation time of the Chibaku Tensei is around 9 minutes.

I don't believe a feat covering a short number of panels or pages proves objectively that the feat must have taken place over a short period of time.

I would call this the manga equivalent of "cinematic time"; there is clearly a jump in time between the panels. A jump in time between one panel and another can be longer than just a few seconds. And since the Chibaku Tensei takes 16 panels just to get a couple of kilometers, yet takes about a couple of panels to jump to thousands of kilometers across, I'm thinking that this is clearly a larger jump in time than you might think.

Regarding the "Naruto wouldn't have taken so long to reach his teammates", I think this isn't a solid line of reasoning.

The assumption is that the Sage's and Kakashi's conversation lasted exactly the amount of time that Naruto and Sasuke were running over there, whereas Naruto and Sasuke had already left and were gone for an unknown time before the Sage started speaking. We simply don't have a timeframe for how long their actual journey took them, and it could have easily been a few minutes.

As for the distance they travelled to run away from the formation of the Chibaku Tensei? Pixelscaling puts the diameter of the crater at least 2006 kilometers and they clearly went a bit further beyond that since they were viewing the Moon from a fair distance.

Travelling that far in a few minutes sounds fine for me for Naruto and the others (reminder, the 9 minutes isn't for how long it took Naruto to travel there, but the total time it took for the CT to be created).

So aside from the preconception that the CT had to form quickly since the feat took place over a small number of panels, I can see no reason in the context around the feat why the Potential Energy version of the calc shouldn't be fine to use.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Panels in comics or manga are never really consistent with timeframe; it could take like 30 panels to show a matrix style bullet timing feat. And at the same time, all it takes is two or three panels to show a giant time skip that happened over the course of days, months, years, or even millenniums.

It definitely doesn't take quite that long here, just pointing out that the number of panels and/or pages is never a good guesstimate for time-frames.

 

[Jvando]

I see your point, even if I do not agree with it.

On a similar note, should KE calcs that have to do with tossing an object up a certain distance use PE instead if there is no stated timeframe?

Edit: Also, why are you calcing the full creation of the CT considering all 34 panels? From the point at which Naruto threw Zetsu, the CT was still relatively close to the ground. The next panel then shows us its full altitude afterward. You shouldn't be calcing while considering the entire process across 34 panels. Your calc should be based on those last couple panels before we see the CT launched into the air.

> The assumption is that the Sage's and Kakashi's conversation lasted exactly the amount of time that Naruto and Sasuke were running over there, whereas Naruto and Sasuke had already left and were gone for an unknown time before the Sage started speaking. We simply don't have a timeframe for how long their actual journey took them, and it could have easily been a few minutes.

Do you think the Sage and Kakashi were silently staring over Sakura for over a minute before talking? Cause Kakashi had moved over to Sakura long before Sasuke and Naruto started their race. To argue that their speech started some significant amount of time after Nard and Sauce had left just doesn't work within context.

 

[Damage3245]

> Your calc should be based on those last couple panels before we see the CT launched into the air.

Because I don't agree with your interpretation that the CT spontaneously launched itself into the air in a few seconds.

> Do you think the Sage and Kakashi were silently staring over Sakura for over a minute before talking? Cause Kakashi had moved over to Sakura long before Sasuke and Naruto started their race.

I think we can't use their conversation as a precise measurement of the time it took Naruto and Sasuke to get to the Valley of the End.

Both of them were already running through the forest by the time the time the Sage and Kakashi started talking that and that means they already covered hypothetically dozens of kilometers before the conversation started. And I don't think the conversation can be measured using the old "Words per minute" metric anyway considering it doesn't take into account pauses between each person speaking.

Anyway though, as for your other question:

> On a similar note, should KE calcs that have to do with tossing an object up a certain distance use PE instead if there is no stated timeframe?

This may be best.

In this circumstance at least, I believe that PE is preferable to KE.

 

[Jvando]

I'll reply again later actually.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. Well, as DDM said up above the number of panels is not a good basis for estimating the timeframe.

Just because there is cut from Naruto's face to the end result of the CT doesn't mean that the timeframe between the two panels has to be really short.

 

[The_Causality]

Just because there is cut from Naruto's face to the end result of the CT doesn't mean that the timeframe between the two panels has to be really short.

I think in this case, it's fine, there is no transitional panel and they're both in the same page which contain two panel and without dialogues, it's fine to assume that they're separated by a few second.

For the rest of the discussion, i didn't read those replies so i'll let you guys take the best choice.

 

[Damage3245]

I think in this case, it's fine, there is no transitional panel and they're both in the same page, it's fine to assume that they're separated by a few second.

There doesn't have to be a transitional panel; there is nothing linking them to being a few seconds apart so it is an unwarranted assumption.

My version of the calc gets rid of that assumption.

A quick examination of the formation of the Chibaku Tensei before and after those panels really shows that it must have taken longer than a few seconds.

 

[The_Causality]

But there is things linking both panel, nardo throw the black guy to the Chibaku Tensei, he look at the moon and you have the said CT panel, they're linked, and the fact that there is no dialogue, and that the page contain only two panel is enough to said that there at least a few second between both, at this point you have to prove that there is an higher timeframe than the usuals situations

 

[BlackeJan]

Sorry I'm late guys. I also agree that the timeframe make no sense. We need to find a middle group here with good accuracy

 

[Damage3245]

@BlackeJan; this is a staff-only thread.

@The Causality; look at the formation of the CT over the course of the chapter. You're assuming it jumps from a couple kilometers across to over 3,400 kilometers across in a few seconds just because there was a scene cut to it being formed a panel later? Even though it took multiple panels for it to grow to a couple kilometers across?

I'll repeat what DDM said:

> Panels in comics or manga are never really consistent with timeframe; it could take like 30 panels to show a matrix style bullet timing feat. And at the same time, all it takes is two or three panels to show a giant time skip that happened over the course of days, months, years, or even millenniums.

That should be sufficient.

 

[The_Causality]

@BlackeJan; this is a staff-only thread.
@The Causality; look at the formation of the CT over the course of the chapter. You're assuming it jumps from a couple kilometers across to over 3,400 kilometers across in a few seconds just because there was a scene cut to it being formed a panel later? Even though it took multiple panels for it to grow to a couple kilometers across?

You only talked about this panel i guess not the entire chapter, if it's the latter, then we didn't talk about the same things, About the whole Chapter, that's obvious that there is not a few seconds between the formation and the end.

But if you talked about the panel i linked above, then yea, it's take a few second between nardo's panel and the CT.

 

[Damage3245]

@The Causlity; the formation of the CT is what I'm talking about as a whole.

But regarding that panel you're talking about specifically, I would say that is a Non-Sequiter fallacy among others. A jump from one panel to another in no way implies a definite timeframe.

You can't point to that page and say that it could only be a few seconds between the panels.

 

[The_Causality]

@The Causlity; the formation of the CT is what I'm talking about as a whole.
But regarding that panel you're talking about specifically, I would say that is a Non-Sequiter fallacy among others. A jump from one panel to another in no way implies a definite timeframe.

You can't point to that page and say that it could only be a few seconds between the panels.

I want to say that there is a few seconds between panel only if there is no inconsistency or nothing to contradict it, (like we don't assume few minutes between panel without concrete proof of it), that's the usual assumption, just like we don't assume dynamic action in panel to 10 minutes or stuff like that.

Only if it's contradicted by the usual assumption or there is an inconstency

 

[Damage3245]

I want to say that there is a few seconds between panel only if there is no inconsistency or nothing to contradict it, (like we don't assume few minutes between panel without concrete proof of it), that's the usual assumption, just like we don't assume dynamic action in panel to 10 minutes or stuff like that.

Only if it's contradicted by the usual assumption or there is an inconstency

We don't need to make any assumption about the timeframe between panels thanks to the Potential Energy version of the calc.

And the inconsistency that leads me to believe there is not only a few seconds between panels is because there is a scene jump between Naruto being underneath the Chibaku Tensei and Naruto being thousands of kilometers away from it. And the formation of the Chibaku Tensei prior to that panel was a lot slower than what would be suggested by assuming only a few seconds passed.

Don't know if those reasons are good enough for you, but they are for me.

> like we don't assume few minutes between panel without concrete proof of it

Isn't that contradictory? You need concrete proof in order to assume a few minutes, but you need no proof at all to assume a few seconds? Seems odd to me.

 

[The_Causality]

I'm already fine to removing the Timeframe from the feat with the PE, it's safer.

After reading the Chapter, Indeed there a few inconsistency, like nardo was approx at the middle of the CT when he throw the zetsu and if you look, there is still a bunch of ground and the next page, there is a huge hole. And judging by the speed formation of the hole, there is no way the CT finished near instantanously in both panel, so yeah those reason are enough for me

That's why i say context and inconsistency are important, now i just need to follow those advices lol.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. I agree, context is important which is why I disagreed vehemently with your initial interpretation. Apologies.

 

[Jvando]

Alright, I've been re-reading those chapters and I think I've been interpreting the events of that last panels and the preceding ones incorrectly.

For starters, the CT forms quickly.

Exhibit A




Again, you might argue "he number of panels is not a good basis for estimating the timeframe." but that 100% depends on the context of the situation. We can use common sense to estimate a reasonable timeframe if the events are continuous with each other. Saying that estimating timeframe from panels is always innaccurate is false when taking into consideration the context of the feat.

My next point is about the following panels.





Here we see Naruto converse with Black Zetsu for a while before launching the thing at the moon. Afterwards, we go to the next panel of Naruto looking up, however, we did skip a few things.



Over at the bottom of the page where Naruto punches Zetsu, we see it buried with rocks and note that the CT is still forming then over at the next panel, we see Naruto looking up and we see the complete CT. Those scenes from the CT forming are all continuous with each other with no large "jumps" that indicate large jumps in time. The CT didn't spontaneously "jump" and become that large. The way I interpret this is that after Naruto punched Zetsu, he watched it get buried and looked up towards the completed moon. In other words, the timeframe from when Naruto jumped to meet zetsu to when he looked up at the completed CT is what we are considering and that does not indicate 9 minutes under any circumstances. The only "time skip" is from this panel



to this one




Additionally, we have instances of similar feats being made in relatively short timeframes as well.

Pein's CT, for example, formed in mere moments and has a size of around 8km.

Madara's CT also formed in mere moments.




And they are also of a much larger scale than Pein's CT at around 100km from a simple calc. Madara was able to form multiple of those at once in a relatively short timeframe despite his being much bigger. I can also get larget sizes for the metero using my Konoha-Suna distance to scale Frost country.

The point is that the scale of the CT doesn't seem to matter much. All that seems to matter is the amount of energy one puts into the gravity sphere. Additionally, the databook makes no distinction between Six Paths CT and the other CT we've seen throughout the story. The only difference is what gets formed into a gravity sphere:

• In regular CT, an individual forms the gravity sphere
• In Six Paths CT, you turn an individual into a "gravity sphere" so to speak.

In essence, the feat occurs in a short timeframe not because of the panel skip from Naruto to the full moon but because after during the time period in which Naruto met with and punched Zetsu and looked up to the sky, the CT had already been completed. These events don't indicate a significant timeframe.

 

[The_Causality]

@Damage That's my fault, i didn't have enough knowledge of the situation we've talked about.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; > In essence, the feat occurs in a short timeframe not because of the panel skip from Naruto to the full moon but because after during the time period in which Naruto met with and punched Zetsu and looked up to the sky, the CT had already been completed.

The CT certainly doesn't look anywhere near completed on the page where Naruto punches Zetsu into the CT. The panels after BZ hitting the CT just show him being buried, not the entire CT turning into a moon.

And I don't see any objective proof that Naruto was staring at the CT until the thing becames the Moon we see on this panel

For one, he'd have to have moved away from there because of the enormous 2000+ kilometer crater that forms underneath the CT.

 

[Jvando]

And I don't see any objective proof that Naruto was staring at the CT until the thing becames the Moon we see on this panel

You're saying that as if it took a long time for the moon to form...what if it didn't?

For one, he'd have to have moved away from there because of the enormous 2000+ kilometer crater that forms underneath the CT.

Alright, say that Naruto did move soon after he had punched Zetsu up to the still forming moon. As you noted, the moon wasn't still fully formed...well this makes a 9 minute timeframe even more off. If the moon hadn't been fully formed yet that also means the crater wasn't at its largest either meaning that Naruto would have easily traveled back to his team in like no significant time. This is important because we know that Naruto traveled back after the CT was completed, not before.

So, it is either:

• Naruto punched Zetsu and traveled back to his teammates soon after while the moon was still forming and by the time he returned, the moon had more or less finished forming. This would mean that the crater was still small and that the distance Naruto would have to travel back to his team is exponentially shorter. This would indicate a short timeframe if it only took naruto a short period of time to return to his team and say "sealing complete".
• Naruto punched Zetsu and watched as the CT fully formed before going back to his teammates. You noted that the CT wasn't fully formed at that time and it would be a little odd for Naruto to be staring up at the sky for 9 minutes. This would mean that the CT still formed relatively quickly and not that it formed in 9 minutes.

 

[Damage3245]

> If the moon hadn't been fully formed yet that also means the crater wasn't at its largest either meaning that Naruto would have easily traveled back to his team in like no significant time.

They set off before him. So it's equally plausible that he managed to catch up to them after they had stopped a safe distance away from the CT's crater.

> This is important because we know that Naruto traveled back after the CT was completed, not before.

Not necessarily. We know that he arrived after it was complete, not that he only started travelling after it was complete.

Of the two options you listed, the closest one to my interpretation is the first one but there isn't a convincing reason to assume it had to have been a very short period of time.

 

[Jvando]

The simple fact of the matter is that the CT finished forming sometime between when Naruto punched Zetsu to when he arrived back at his team. You keep saying that there's no convincing reason to assume it had to be a very short period of time, but you also haven't stated why it had to have taken a longer period of time. Just like it's not accurate to assume high ends, it is also just as inaccurate to assume extremely low ends because, surprise, they are just as inaccurate. There's no reason to say that your calc is more applicable because it would indicate a completely unrealistic timeframe given the context of the feat.

Additionally, I also brought up how similar CT feats don't take a long period of time either despite their scales being massively different. SPCT and the normal CT we have seen are basically the same technique so factoring that in, there's even less reason to assume that the SPCT took a long period of time to form. What seems to matter more is how much energy is put into the technique which only affects its scale but not it's timeframe.

Finally, imma be at work in a bit so I won't be able to reply for a little after this.

 

[Damage3245]

> You keep saying that there's no convincing reason to assume it had to be a very short period of time, but you also haven't stated why it had to have taken a longer period of time.

As I said above, it appears to take more than a few seconds for the CT to grow as large as a few kilometers across - meaning it would take longer to grow Moons-zied. And even in the time it took Black Zetsu and Naruto to have a conversation it didn't appear to grow at an absurdly fast pace.

So based on the rest of the chapter's depiction of the CT, I don't have any issue accepting it taking a few minutes to be fully completed.

> Just like it's not accurate to assume high ends, it is also just as inaccurate to assume extremely low ends because, surprise, they are just as inaccurate.

The potential energy version doesn't supplied high ends or low ends; it's just a single result.

> There's no reason to say that your calc is more applicable because it would indicate a completely unrealistic timeframe given the context of the feat.

I can't find any reason for the timeframe deduced from the potential energy version of the calc to be unrealistic other than some people just not wanting to believe it.

> SPCT and the normal CT we have seen are basically the same technique so factoring that in, there's even less reason to assume that the SPCT took a long period of time to form.

Nine minutes from start to finish for a celestial object the size of the Moon doesn't sound long to me.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Sorry, but even though it's a staff thread, I felt the need to comment on something that might help.

I remember being told somewhere that the moment Hagoromo sent the moon into orbit, it was said that he was "old" and knew he was close to death, fearing that the Juubi controlled him completely. Which I don't think it would take several hours, but I don't remember if this was belied in the future or retcon.

Also, I remember the translations usually having "Hurled / Blasted ..." the moon in the sky.

In particular, I think this favors the 30-minute timeframe a bit. My 2 cents!

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; if you have a comment you should leave it with a member of staff or myself.

Hagoromo also survived for months without the Juubi husk inside him any more IIRC. And the "hurled" statement doesn't imply a specific timeframe.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

Before I say that I agree with xyz:

>I cannot think of a method of improving the calc that doesn't involve guesswork for the timeframe. So what is the solution?

The moon does a near circular ellipse orbit around the earth.

For an object that was throw to the sky and it starts to make a circular orbit around the Earth needs to have an speed of ~7900 m/sec, this is called the first cosmic speed.

Since the ellipse orbit of the moon only has 0.16% of difference between both axis, using this value is fine as the result won't change all that much, and I don't want to go near the mrk of Kepler.

v = sqrt(G * M /r)

G = 6.67├ù10ÔêÆ11 m3┬ÀkgÔêÆ1┬ÀsÔêÆ2

M = 5.972×10^24 kg

r = 6371000 m

v = sqrt(6.67├ù10ÔêÆ11 m3┬ÀkgÔêÆ1┬ÀsÔêÆ2 * 5.972├ù10^24 kg / 6371000 m) = 7907.132456 m/sec

KE = 1/2 * 7.34767309 e22 kg * (7907.132456 m/sec)^2 = 2.296983406 e30 J

2.296983406 e30 J - 548.99220984703640625 exatons of tnt - Low 5-B

 

[KLOL506]

This would prolly only apply to Naruto and Sauce, since their version is quite different from Hags and Hamura. Hagoromo's is the main deal-breaker tho.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

Different in what way?

 

[KLOL506]

AFAIK, Tata said that in Naruto and Sasuke's case sending the moon into orbit wasn't part of their jutsu, unlike in the case of Hags and Hamura.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

This calc is for Hagoromo and Hamura's, since this is the speed to send something to space and for the object start to orbiting around the planet.

The: "I cannot think of a method of improving the calc that doesn't involve guesswork for the timeframe. So what is the solution?"

Is from "problem" part of the OP talking about: "The main issue is that the majority of the characters listed are rated as 5-B now because of a single 5-B calc, which is the calc of Hagoromo and Hamura sending the Moon from the planet's surface to orbit over an unknown period of time."

 

[KLOL506]

That's not the calc that's on Hags's profile tho, it's M3X's versio.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

I know, I just made the calc addressing what dama said in the OP about no having a method to improve the calc without guesswork, it's basically like the new toy in the kinder garde.

 

[Celestial_Judge]

I know I'm not staff however Sasuke was able to hurl all sealed Tailed Beasts at such a speed it even surprised Naruto.

Also Madara was able to summon his Meteors in mere moments.

Therefore a 30 minute time interval for both Naruto and Sasuke to move the moon that far in 30 minutes does not sound far fetched at all.

If anyone needs the scans contact me on my wall.