Removing the Momoshiki/Kinshiki>Kaguya rule.

[Arc7Kuroi]

I guess a better way to word it is BSM Naruto from the Last reached power arguably on power with SPSM KCM Naruto from Shippuden, meaning a hypothetical SPSM KCM Naruto from the Last would be stronger than his teenage self using that form.

SPSM KCM teen Nard ~ BSM the Last Nard < SPSM KCM the Last Nard

But either way we don’t need explicit statements that Naruto and Sasuke got stronger. There would need to be an explicit statement that they didn’t get stronger if you wanted to argue the Momo Kim > Kaguya stuff is contradicted.

 

[Damage3245]

He has a specific form that uses Six Paths power, SPSM. It’s separate from BSM.

He also had access to a power which he unlocked as a result of using Six Paths power which is flight. It's not unreasonable that Naruto on the Moon was tapping into his Six Paths power as he was fighting Toneri.

I know your next argument is going to be "The burden of proof is on you that he was using Six Paths power when he was fighting Toneri in BSM" to which I would just circle back to "He was flying" and then we'd go nowhere.

From my own point of view, the events of the films had a degree of PIS involved where the animators/writers couldn't use Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode because the details of it either hadn't been fully unveiled to them or too much production was done in the movie before Six Paths Sage Mode became clear to them, or the differences in design were simply overlooked, etc. It doesn't make sense that Naruto from an in-universe perspective would limit himself to Biju-Sage Mode when every other time we see him in Boruto after The Last he always goes straight into Six Paths Sage Mode instead of fighting first in a lower form like Kyubi Chakra Mode or Biju-Sage Mode, etc.

Again next argument will be "Prove that this is the case" and obviously I can't as I don't have access to the behind-the-scenes of the film or why the writer's wrote it the way they did. I can only say what makes sense to me from what limited information we have to work with.

That's all.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

From my own point of view, the events of the films had a degree of PIS involved where the animators/writers couldn't use Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode because the details of it either hadn't been fully unveiled to them or too much production was done in the movie before Six Paths Sage Mode became clear to them, or the differences in design were simply overlooked, etc. It doesn't make sense that Naruto from an in-universe perspective would limit himself to Biju-Sage Mode when every other time we see him in Boruto after The Last he always goes straight into Six Paths Sage Mode instead of fighting first in a lower form like Kyubi Chakra Mode or Biju-Sage Mode, etc.

Iirc the Last databook refers to it as BSM.

 

[Cyberblader90]

 

[GTsek]

Iirc the Last databook refers to it as BSM.

These guides are made at the same time the film is produced. If they couldn't give information about the new modes (Rinnegan and Rikudō Mode are released in the manga long after the beginning of the productions of the film), so it is to be expected that they could not reveal these things.

 

[GTsek]

in the novel restsuden it also says that he is using "Kurama Mode" when he regains power and it is still said to be his strongest Mode.

 

[BlastX]

I forgot to ask but, does Sasuke have the Rinnegan in the last? I know he The Last Sasuke has the Rinnegan in Storm 4 but I don't know if he has it on the actual movie.

 

[BlastX]

Although even then, it doesn't really change much, Naruto used Kurama Sage Mode in the movie and nothing is changing that now.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Guys, the chakra cloak is "Kurama Mode", he's always using Kurama Mode even in Boruto.
This is Six Paths Sage Mode. This is what makes the difference, and the only way to differentiate between it and regular Sage Mode is the orange pigmentation around his eyes which is missing from SPSM.
We refer to the form he commonly uses in Boruto as "SPSM" for convenience, but it's actually SPSM + Kurama Mode. It's just annoying to write down every time we mention it.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

I forgot to ask but, does Sasuke have the Rinnegan in the last? I know he The Last Sasuke has the Rinnegan in Storm 4 but I don't know if he has it on the actual movie.

Yep do Sasuke have Rinnegan in the last but it was error/mistake. Sasuke stans think Sasuke can deactivate Rinnegan which make him cooler. Only Ostustuki can deactivate like Urashiki.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Kishimoto has us doing backflips over the color orange right now.

 

[GTsek]

And the argument that "The last Naruto BSM > War Naruto BSM" is not relevant here, as Naruto received an up that strengthens his base form. He in base form was able to react and block a Sasuke Rinnegan hit

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

If Naruto use Kurama mode + Sage then he would have pigmentation around his eyes, through the War arc, the last and Boruto.

It's a design change and new writer (before Kishimoto take over)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Honestly, I'm not sure what relevance this whole discussion even has to the main topic. There's obviously no proof that Naruto and Sasuke got stronger, but there's no proof that they got weaker either.
It feels like we're arguing irrelevant semantics at this point, and veering off the main topic.

 

[Darsh748]

Lemme further add some stuff

Urashiki had been monitoring the Earth every since Kaguya betrayed Isshiki


This is further proven when he tells Toneri he watched his battle with Naruto





He then outright tells Momoshiki and Kinshiki that he watched Kaguya battle with her sons and her being sealed away, meaning he saw what she was like at her peak and was still confident any of them could have clapped her cheeks and brought her back to the Clan for her crimes




And some will try to argue it just typical Otsutsuki arrogance but mind you we've seen that Otsutsuki respect power such as Kaguya, Momoshiki and even Isshiki praising Naruto and Sasuke's abilities. Kaguya even stated they only understand power, thus can acknowledg when someone can rival themselves, which brings me to my next point of Kaguya literally having a vision of the 3 mentioned Otsutsuki ONLY and no one else

It pretty damn clear it talking about Momoshiki and Kinshiki ( Urashiki too I guess )

Assuming many things here, Urashiki never watched Kaguya fight against Hagoromo and Hamura, that was never said anywhere, the information he tells Momoshiki and Kinshiki even people who never saw Kaguya knew like Toneri, Urashiki knowing this from other sources is completely feasible as well, another weird thing about this whole story is that Isshiki was never mentioned even though he was the superior of the duo lol

 

[Cyberblader90]

doesnt naruto use bijuu techniques in this state like lava rasenshuriken?

 

[GTsek]

I think some are lost here, no one said he doesn't use Rikudō Mode anymore, but probably in the movie he didn't use it for design reasons.

 

[GTsek]

Honestly, I'm not sure what relevance this whole discussion even has to the main topic. There's obviously no proof that Naruto and Sasuke got stronger, but there's no proof that they got weaker either.
It feels like we're arguing irrelevant semantics at this point, and veering off the main topic.

I agree. There's no evidence that they got much stronger, but there's also no evidence that they got weaker. It was shown in the gaiden that the absence of battles leaves Naruto rusty and out of shape, but that doesn't mean he's become weaker if he's at 100% of his physical form. That's why I always consider them to have at least the same level as they did in war, it's much better to assume that than to argue without proof.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree. There's no evidence that they got much stronger, but there's also no evidence that they got weaker. It was shown in the gaiden that the absence of battles leaves Naruto rusty and out of shape, but that doesn't mean he's become weaker if he's at 100% of his physical form. That's why I always consider them to have at least the same level as they did in war, it's much better to assume that than to argue without proof.

Naruto is completely irrelevant to whether or not Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. There is no empirical proof that he is stronger, weaker, or the same, which means he can't be used to limit or support the OP's claims. He's just irrelevant to the topic at large.

 

[Darsh748]

Well is this really reliable when it comes to that kind of information? I remember that in one of the boruto guides six paths is also called kurama mode

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Guys, the chakra cloak is "Kurama Mode", he's always using Kurama Mode even in Boruto.
This is Six Paths Sage Mode. This is what makes the difference, and the only way to differentiate between it and regular Sage Mode is the orange pigmentation around his eyes which is missing from SPSM.
We refer to the form he commonly uses in Boruto as "SPSM" for convenience, but it's actually SPSM + Kurama Mode. It's just annoying to write down every time we mention it.

Guys, please, READ and stop arguing about utterly pointless things.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Guys, please, READ and stop arguing about utterly pointless things.

Asking a Naruto fan to read is like asking a toddler to successfully perform open heart surgery.

 

[GTsek]

Naruto is completely irrelevant to whether or not Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. There is no empirical proof that he is stronger, weaker, or the same, which means he can't be used to limit or support the OP's claims. He's just irrelevant to the topic at large.

I think he is relevant, because one of the three possibilities we must assume because his scale in the new era also depends on that. I think how we can't prove he's stronger or weaker, it is safer to assume that it is at or close to the same level. But I won't insist on that for now.

Now, Guy's statement should have relevant here, he faced Madara and saw Momoshiki in the arena, saw the damage he caused to the point of knocking out Naruto and still said that Madara was the strongest they've ever faced.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You have to prove he got weaker or stayed the same if you wanna claim he limits Momo and Kin, so stop making hypotheses and start dropping scans to prove that claim.

 

[Darsh748]

Another interesting thing I found, in one of the boruto guides it says that the Naruto who fought Jigen and Delta was Naruto kurama mode+sage mode:



This is coincidental because Naruto only starts to mention six paths mode when facing Isshiki:

 

[Halkum145]

I agree with this crt, I will support it with interesting arguments soon

 

[GTsek]

You have to prove he got weaker or stayed the same if you wanna claim he limits Momo and Kin, so stop making hypotheses and start dropping scans to prove that claim.

Guy says that: Madara > Momoshiki.

And by the way, I'm against the Momoshiki/Kinshiki > Kaguya scale, but I really don't think there should be a discussion rule

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Naruto and Sasuke got stronger by burden of having better feats against stronger characters, the only reason why that was put into question is because we already assumed the characters to be weaker than Kaguya, in which case it's circular reasoning.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

What episode does guy make that statement?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Guy says that: Madara > Momoshiki.

and Guy never fought Momoshiki

and seeing someone doesnt = knowing how powerful they are 1:1

also this is the same Guy that goes on to forget Madara's name a minute later.

 

[Darsh748]

He remembered how strong Madara was, so it's one thing

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Cool, Guy never fought or engaged Momo, he’s by no means reputable on Momo’s power.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

He remembered how strong Madara was, so it's one thing

Madara was the strongest person Might Guy ever fought so it makes sense lol

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think he is relevant, because one of the three possibilities we must assume because his scale in the new era also depends on that. I think how we can't prove he's stronger or weaker, it is safer to assume that it is at or close to the same level. But I won't insist on that for now.

No offense, but it honestly doesn't matter what you or I think in these types of discussions. For example, I do personally believe Naruto is around the same level as his teen self, but I don't have proof for it, so it's utterly irrelevant in an evidence based discussion. We can't use our personal beliefs or assumptions as evidence against something.

 

[Darsh748]

And what is the evidence that he got stronger too? because from what we know of gaiden he got rusty in all these years of peace, he didn't seem the least bit worried that bigger threats than kaguya might appear in the future

 

[Darsh748]

Even shin mentions about it about their stagnation of strength

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And what is the evidence that he got stronger too?

The supporting side doesn’t have to fulfill that burden. It would simply by a consequence of them having feats against stronger opponents. If you want to refute the OP, you must prove they got weaker or stayed the same.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Even shin mentions about it about their stagnation of strength

And by the last chapter Naruto clears off his rustyness and Sasuke gets his chakra back. Furthermore, Naruto had his battle sense dulled, that has nothing to do with his stats.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

And what is the evidence that he got stronger too? because from what we know of gaiden he got rusty in all these years of peace, he didn't seem the least bit worried that bigger threats than kaguya might appear in the future

It. Does. Not. Matter.

Your whole point is irrelevant unless you have EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE of him being weaker or the same.
It would be like me claiming that I think character B is weaker than he used to be, so character C can't be stronger than A as a result. One simply has nothing to do with the other unless you can prove it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Even shin mentions about it about their stagnation of strength

this is massively taking what Shin was saying out of context.

Shin was talking about the Limitations of self growth in relation to evolving through your off spring, in a similar way how evolution weeds out the weak until the best version of that specific thing exist.