Removing the Momoshiki/Kinshiki>Kaguya rule.

[MinatoSparkle]

Currently there is a rule for the Narutoverse that goes as follows:

• Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information regarding Momoshiki's and Kinshiki's powers, since he never faced both until some chapters later. It's also concluded that the statements of "greater threat" and Kaguya fearing them are not enough to make Momoshiki stronger than her, considering the context of her past, and the power-ups that she received during the 1000 years she was on Earth. She also feared three Otsutsuki at the same time, and not only one. The feats displayed are also inconsistent with this scaling, since Momoshiki fought and had trouble with SPSM Naruto after having his chakra drained for a long period of time, and Sasuke, who was low on chakra by using portals, while Kaguya fought and easily overpowered both Naruto and Sasuke at peak condition. This topic has been brought up several times during a brief period of time, and the staff and regular members are tired of dealing with the subject.

This rule should be removed as there is currently a God Tier thread where that was proposed and most people (including most staff) agreed with the proposals. There are also problems with the description of the rule itself. For one, it states Sasuke didn't fight them until chapters later, but he actually fought Kinshiki while retrieving the scroll, and still thought the hypothesis was valid.

And when facing them, he implicitly stated those two were the ones Kaguya feared.

Kaguya receiving power ups is quite irrelevant, as even after those, she still wanted an army to fight them.

If one wants to bring up that Zetsu are almost irrelevant against Otsutsuki level characters, that doesn't matter, because when she absorbs the chakra of the army, she gets exponentially stronger and faster, meaning they can at least make a difference in that way.

And she wasn't preparing to fight Momoshiki, Kinshiki, and Urashiki in the manga, that was only in the anime continuity. The Kaguya>Naruto+Sasuke>Fused Momoshiki scaling is just a complete non argument as it ignores the very obvious possibility of Naruto and Sasuke getting stronger. That's like saying War Arc Base Naruto can't be stronger than Base Jiraiya because Start of Shippuden Naruto was weaker. So yeah, there's really no reason for this rule to exist. As a note, this thread isn't specifically meant to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki, just removing that rule to allow the other thread I mentioned to do so. So any staff out there that are vehemently against this, don't close this thread before it starts by saying attempting to upgrade them is prohibited, because I'm not doing that.

Agree: Arc7Kuroi, AnimesFreak2, LordTracer, 1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void, BlastX, Duedate8898
Disagree: Reio35
Lol: KingTempest

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Agree and I will be keeping a close eye on this thread to help defend the duo bopping Kaguya

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Your links got ****** up lol but here’s my imgur explaining it as well, obviously I agree. I add explanations within the imgur as well.

But furthermore, the discussion rule states that Momo > Kaguya is consistent because Adult Naruto beats up Fused Momo, but Teen Naruto got beat up by Kaguya. Teen Naruto doesn’t limit Adult Naruto whatsoever, so that point doesn’t mean anything as it’s predicated on an assumption that Adult Naruto = Teen Naruto which cannot be proved.

Additionally, the discussion rule states Sasuke isn’t reliable because he never met Kinshiki and Momo. However, that’s objectively false as well considering he doesn’t confirm his suspicions until after fighting Kinshiki.

 

[LordTracer]

Aye, I agree with nuking the discussion rule.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

But furthermore, the discussion rule states that Momo > Kaguya is consistent because Adult Naruto beats up Fused Momo, but Teen Naruto got beat up by Kaguya.

Terrible logic I always disagreed with lmao

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Agreed

 

[BlastX]

Logic is sound, I agree

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Lemme further add some stuff

Urashiki had been monitoring the Earth every since Kaguya betrayed Isshiki


This is further proven when he tells Toneri he watched his battle with Naruto





He then outright tells Momoshiki and Kinshiki that he watched Kaguya battle with her sons and her being sealed away, meaning he saw what she was like at her peak and was still confident any of them could have clapped her cheeks and brought her back to the Clan for her crimes




And some will try to argue it just typical Otsutsuki arrogance but mind you we've seen that Otsutsuki respect power such as Kaguya, Momoshiki and even Isshiki praising Naruto and Sasuke's abilities. Kaguya even stated they only understand power, thus can acknowledg when someone can rival themselves, which brings me to my next point of Kaguya literally having a vision of the 3 mentioned Otsutsuki ONLY and no one else

It pretty damn clear it talking about Momoshiki and Kinshiki ( Urashiki too I guess )

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm fine with getting rid of it. The main reasons stuff like this normally gets proposed is cause of staff growing tired of arguing against it over a short period of time, but we haven't had to deal with that for a while and most staff and users involved with the thread seemed to have no issue with the usage of this in supporting the scaling and thread.

So at this point, the rule feels out of date.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

I agree with OP's stated and I cannot wait for Naruto stans who cannot accept Teen Naruto is way weaker than his adult self because He iS FaR STrOnGER tHaN HoKaGE NaRuTO iN HiS PrIMe aND sOloS eVERyOnE!!1111, same goes for Sasuke stans.

Edit: I remind you, Naruto and Sasuke's age 32-33 in their prime which they are stronger than their teen self. just look Madara's age 30 in her prime.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

I got far more scans in stock but so far it seems good

saving them for now just in case

 

[Reio35]

Lemme further add some stuff

Urashiki had been monitoring the Earth every since Kaguya betrayed Isshiki


This is further proven when he tells Toneri he watched his battle with Naruto





He then outright tells Momoshiki and Kinshiki that he watched Kaguya battle with her sons and her being sealed away, meaning he saw what she was like at her peak and was still confident any of them could have clapped her cheeks and brought her back to the Clan for her crimes




And some will try to argue it just typical Otsutsuki arrogance but mind you we've seen that Otsutsuki respect power such as Kaguya, Momoshiki and even Isshiki praising Naruto and Sasuke's abilities. Kaguya even stated they only understand power, thus can acknowledg when someone can rival themselves, which brings me to my next point of Kaguya literally having a vision of the 3 mentioned Otsutsuki ONLY and no one else

It pretty damn clear it talking about Momoshiki and Kinshiki ( Urashiki too I guess )

All wrong my guy momoshiki didnt even know the ten tails what split into 9 beast. He also thought he could beat naruto and look what happened

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Undre I am not even going to begin trying to debate you as you just purposefully misread scans if they aren't Bleach my guy

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

All wrong my guy momoshiki didnt even know the ten tails what split into 9 beast. He also thought he could beat naruto and look what happened

Pulled out of context

 

[Deceived3596]

Following

 

[MinatoSparkle]

All wrong my guy momoshiki didnt even know the ten tails what split into 9 beast. He also thought he could beat naruto and look what happened

That's Momoshiki. Urashiki didn't share all of his knowledge with Momo (I didn't watch the arc but iirc Urashiki was tricking Momoshiki and Kinshiki into thinking he was allies with them when he really had his own agenda). So even if Momoshiki didn't have full knowledge, Urashiki did and still thought of Kaguya as beneath them.

 

[Reio35]

Pulled out of context

In the manga momoshiki finds out after going to earth and fighting bee. But in the anime Urashiki tells them

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m failing to see how the method at which Momo finds out there are 9 Bijuu debunks the OP

 

[Reio35]

That's Momoshiki. Urashiki didn't share all of his knowledge with Momo (I didn't watch the arc but iirc Urashiki was tricking Momoshiki and Kinshiki into thinking he was allies with them when he really had his own agenda). So even if Momoshiki didn't have full knowledge, Urashiki did and still thought of Kaguya as beneath them.

You mean the same Urashiki that got overwhelmed by 50% kurama after trying to steal his chakra lmao. Yeah kaguya would have bullied him she had a much larger amount of chakra.

You can argue maybe if they worked together they could pull a W but individually no

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Post Six Paths power up Kurama is rated far above regular Kurama but unknown. So he doesn’t really limit any of the characters here.

 

[KingTempest]

Lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

KT agrees mark that down

 

[Reio35]

I’m failing to see how the method at which Momo finds out there are 9 Bijuu debunks the OP

The point is he has no knowledge of prime kaguya's power. The only one who could possibly know is Urashiki. White zetsu from form humans who had their chakra extracted so it's not like she can amp herself with them. The would just be used meat shields at the most. Also Kaguya was prepping to fight 3 otususki. Which could have gotten stronger over the 1000 plus she last seen. So off course she would keep prepping as she doesnt know how strong they are. Their also the possibility of other members in the clan coming for her

 

[Reio35]

Post Six Paths power up Kurama is rated far above regular Kurama but unknown. So he doesn’t really limit any of the characters here.

Im talking about when he went to the past and tried to take kid naruto's chakra

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Im talking about when he went to the past and tried to take kid naruto's chakra

Time Travel arc scaling is bad

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Im talking about when he went to the past and tried to take kid naruto's chakra

I’m 99.9% sure Urashiki was nerfed there considering Cyber has been slapping you on that numerous times in the God Tier thread

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I agree, just don't ask me if i still agree with my current opinion in a years time.

 

[Damage3245]

The Kaguya>Naruto+Sasuke>Fused Momoshiki scaling is just a complete non argument as it ignores the very obvious possibility of Naruto and Sasuke getting stronger.

Out of curiosity, is there any actual implication that the two of them got a lot stronger?

 

[Hasty12345]

this is so blatantly obvious, I agree with the OP whole heatedly

 

[GTsek]

Out of curiosity, is there any actual implication that the two of them got a lot stronger?

I also have this doubt, for some reason they consider the duo to be much stronger than before but they don't have a strong argument. We can see in gaiden that the absence of battles made Naruto very weak.

 

[GTsek]

By the way, this whole Kaguya plan to use the white zetsus is clearly a bad plan, she was desperate, it's very likely that she was weaker than Momoshiki before eating the fruit, so that's why she got scared, she didn't know how strong he had become. She became extremely strong and there was also the possibility that Momoshiki had become extremely strong too, so her fear was fair. Just think about it, the plan was horrible, the zetsus don't add anything, it would be obliterated by the Ootsutsuki duo easily.

 

[theultimate5105]

Out of curiosity, is there any actual implication that the two of them got a lot stronger?

I mean BSM Naruto got a lot stronger so it stands to reason that the last SO6Ps Naruto is a lot stronger then his war ark counterpart

 

[Damage3245]

I mean BSM Naruto got a lot stronger so it stands to reason that the last SO6Ps Naruto is a lot stronger then his war ark counterpart

Not necessarily. We never saw what BSM Naruto was like in the final arc of the mana after he had been given a power boost by the Sage of Six Paths.

 

[Duedate8898]

Out of curiosity, is there any actual implication that the two of them got a lot stronger?

Besides the evidence which is currently gated behind the rule, nothing comes to mind really. But I don't think that's really a part of this discussion. That's more something to worry about for the upgrade thread itself. Especially since the argument is more just support for the larger point of the OP.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I agree with the op completely, this is a rule I’ve found to not make sense.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I absolutely agree. This was the only site I’ve ever known to call the only person who’s ever see something and get a first-hand glimpse of its power “reliable”. A rule clearly rooted in anything but objectivity, tear it down.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Evidence for them getting stronger: BSM Naruto from the Last is way way way stronger than BSM Naruto from Shippuden.

 

[Damage3245]

Evidence for them getting stronger: BSM Naruto from the Last is way way way stronger than BSM Naruto from Shippuden.

We never saw what BSM Naruto was like after he recieved a power-up from the Sage of Six Paths.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He has a specific form that uses Six Paths power, SPSM. It’s separate from BSM.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He has a specific form that uses Six Paths power, SPSM. It’s separate from BSM.

This doesn't really work when we know his base form was also massively empowered by the chakra Naruto gave him. SPSM isn't a form that's necessary to use Six Paths chakra. Sasuke and Obito used six paths chakra without it.