Removing Multiple Dragon Ball Resistances

[StrymULTRA]

Man, it sure is weird how all these abilities have the same "weakness" in Dragon Ball and only Dragon Ball

You cannot really argue when Whis literally says that is simply needed more ki to ovepower hax lol.

 

[Stefano4444]

It can be hard sometimes to decide if a character not being affected by a power should count as a Resistance for the character or a Weakness for the power.

Unless its explicitly treated as an actual weakness instead of simply be the limit of the ability, i don't see reason to not pick the former option.

When a series makes clear (such as Hit's case) that more ki can overpower hax, not really. Is the hax's weakness if anything.

Or maybe Ki users (in Dragon Ball) are capable to resist that specific hax if given enough enough power.

They do not have the same ki mechanics though.

So what because those verse don't directly say those abilities can be ovepower it means they can keep their resistances?

Those characters still got their resistances by overpowering those haxes instead to resist them in the traditional way.

If you thing that Dragon Ball should not get resistances via overpowering abilties, then they need to go as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Or maybe Ki users (in Dragon Ball) are capable to resist that specific hax if given enough enough power.

Uhm. No. Whis has literally said that Hit's powers work only on people weaker than him. That's a blatant weakness of his.

 

[SirAlex09]

Goku's ki however didn't overpower Sidra's Energy of desctruction. If anything he is much weaker in base than Sidra and was still surviving it.

GF didn't overpower it either. He was just metaphorically arm wrestling to gain control over the energy with his improved ki control.

GF wasn't stronger than Top when he was hit by Top's hakai yet he was still not erased. ( Yes Top held back but it was still above Frieza's capabilities to mess him up. So this suggests that he does have some sort of resistance)

And Vegeta vs toppo was basically just about emitting more energy than Toppo could erase. There was no overpowering the hax itself. In fact it was working. When Vegeta punched away Toppo's hakai he was using some sort of protective ki aura to RESIST it

Disagree therefor

 

[Sevil Natas]

However, it's made clear in the series that Hakai attacks can be overpowered by regular Ki. By this same logic, we should give Resistance to Reality Warping to Nappa and Vegeta because they were stronger than Shenron and wouldn't be affected by his magic.

yeah this is just stupid. it's like saying "oh this character survived an ability through insert magical system here. yeah he doesnt resist it. it was a weakness of the ability itself that it got overpowered" i'm not even going to explain how wrong that is

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku's ki however didn't overpower Sidra's Energy of desctruction. If anything he is much weaker in base than Sidra and was still surviving it.

He would've been erased had Beerus not come

GF didn't overpower it either. He was just metaphorically arm wrestling to gain control over the energy with his improved ki control.

He literally did though. He was able to overcome its destructive effects by merely overpowering it

GF wasn't stronger than Top when he was hit by Top's hakai yet he was still not erased. ( Yes Top held back but it was still above Frieza's capabilities to mess him up. So this suggests that he does have some sort of resistance)

Not really when the ToP has a very clear no killing rule

And Vegeta vs toppo was basically just about emitting more energy than Toppo could erase.

Which is a limitation of hakai. So you basically agree with this thread that this is just a limitation of the hax

There was no overpowering the hax itself. In fact it was working. When Vegeta punched away Toppo's hakai he was using some sort of protective ki aura to RESIST it

Vegeta was literally powering through his hakai and punching it back with ki alone

 

[StrymULTRA]

yeah this is just stupid. it's like saying "oh this character survived an ability through insert magical system here. yeah he doesnt resist it. it was a weakness of the ability itself that it got overpowered" i'm not even going to explain how wrong that is

So they resist Reality Warping too?

 

[Sevil Natas]

So they resist Reality Warping too?

that depends on whether them not being affected by shenrons bullshit is the result of their power nullifying it or that shenron himself is playing by rules that disallow him from affecting ppl stronger than him. and idk the specifics in that

but in the case of hakai tho. it's clear that they're using their own power to nullify it

 

[KLOL506]

This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

This is just a weakness for hax in Dragon Ball specifically, being overpowered with strength.

Hard disagree with this. We've gone this song and dance multiple times in a row.

@DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama Mind responding to this?

 

[AguilaR202]

So they resist Reality Warping too?

Even the argument for all hax in DB not working agains higher AP is complete bs because of Guldos time stop and mafuba both working on characters who had explicitly higher AP than their respective users, the hax with proven and stated limits are literally just Hits manga version of timeskip, you’re not working off precedented showings here, you’re exteapolating your entire argument off one instance where a single hax was stated to have such limit which isn’t even in the same continuity as the anime.

 

[Vizer04]

yeah this is just stupid. it's like saying "oh this character survived an ability through insert magical system here. yeah he doesnt resist it. it was a weakness of the ability itself that it got overpowered" i'm not even going to explain how wrong that is

Most hax from other verses don't have that weakness so it wouldn't make sense to give them a full resistance.

 

[Vizer04]

Even the argument for all hax in DB not working agains higher AP is complete bs because of Guldos time stop and mafuba both working on characters who had explicitly higher AP than their respective users, the hax with proven and stated limits are literally just Hits manga version of timeskip, you’re not working off precedented showings here, you’re exteapolating your entire argument off one instance where a single hax was stated to have such limit which isn’t even in the same continuity as the anime.

Fine, Mafuba and Guldo's Time Stop are the exception to this.

 

[KLOL506]

Most hax from other verses don't have that weakness so it wouldn't make sense to give them a full resistance.

"Most hax from other verses don't have that weakness" is not a good excuse to make. Not every verse is the same. This argument has been repeatedly used so many times against Dragon Ball that it's almost funny and sad to even remember as a thing.

 

[SirAlex09]

He would've been erased had Beerus not come

So why wasn't he immediately erased like Zamasu?

He literally did though. He was able to overcome its destructive effects by merely overpowering it

The entire episode put emphasize on GF's ki control so nope.

Not really when the ToP has a very clear no killing rule

Cool didn't know you can turn off Hakai's EE effect. Irony off* He was just holding back on the potency. The potency of hax in dragonball scale with ki level and so does the resistance. It doesn't make sense for numerous abilities that are unrelated to ki to have the exact same weakness for some reason.

 

[Vizer04]

"Most hax from other verses don't have that weakness" is not a good excuse to make. Not every verse is the same. This argument has been repeatedly used so many times against Dragon Ball that it's almost funny and sad to even remember as a thing.

So you think that Nappa should have Resistance to Reality Warping then?

 

[KLOL506]

So you think that Nappa should have Resistance to Reality Warping then?

Like Sevil said, it depends on whether that shit is dependant on Nappa's power nullifying it or Shenron is stuck to following rules forbidding him from operating against stronger beings like him. Without enough context, we can't say jackshit about Nappa. CONTEXT IS KING WHEN YOU TRY DETERMINING FEATS LIKE THIS.

However, evidence mounts up considerably with regards to Hakai, this is blatantly being resisted by Goku's own strength which prevents him from being insta-erased. Not every hax in Dragon Ball operates the same way either. There is a reason it's called a case-by-case basis.

 

[KLOL506]

This is the same ******* reason why we don't automatically grant everyone with a higher ki level to have Existence Erasure Resistance by default. We went through another CRT to conclude this mess.

 

[KLOL506]

However, evidence mounts up considerably with regards to Hakai, this is blatantly being resisted by Goku's own strength which prevents him from being insta-erased. Not every hax in Dragon Ball operates the same way either. There is a reason it's called a case-by-case basis.

Another thing about this is that there is no such thing as Immunity for hax like Existence Erasure. There is only Resistance.

 

[Vizer04]

However, evidence mounts up considerably with regards to Hakai. Not every hax in Dragon Ball operates the same way either. There is a reason it's called a case-by-case basis.

True, it's a case-by-case basis. And Hakai is a case where a Resistance is not earned.

 

[KLOL506]

True, it's a case-by-case basis. And Hakai is a case where a Resistance is not earned.

Bruh, you can't be serious.

Hakai is explicitly one of those scenarios where Resistance is earned.

Read what I said immediately after that point.

Another thing about this is that there is no such thing as Immunity for hax like Existence Erasure. There is only Resistance.

 

[SirAlex09]

The entire point of CRT was that Hakai was overpowered by normal Ki.

2 of the 3 mentioned cases had nothing to do with overpowering. As stated in the episode with Frieza it was done via ki control after resisting the EE.

The third case with Top and Vegeta can be seen either way. Imo not enough evidence to remove it.

 

[Vizer04]

However, evidence mounts up considerably with regards to Hakai, this is blatantly being resisted by Goku's own strength which prevents him from being insta-erased.

Thank you for proving that Hakai shares the same weakness as other hax. A true resistance would work regardless of AP.

 

[KLOL506]

Thank you for proving that Hakai shares the same weakness as other hax.

Name these other hax that have been resisted and overpowered through sheer AP.

A true resistance would work regardless of AP.

This is not a set rule for Resistances. AT ALL. Exceptions exist depending on how other verses portray it. But they're just that: Exceptions. Not a rule.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Honestly, the instant anyone starts using the manga as a method to downplay the anime, when they're both different canons and don't work under the same principles(Whis' statement about Hit's hax being a prime example, as that's non-existent in the anime) they're pretty much arguing in bad faith. This is just straight downplay status through-and-through.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Thank you for proving that Hakai shares the same weakness as other hax. A true resistance would work regardless of AP.

The strength of base Goku, which is inferior to Sidra in every way, is somehow a point in your favor, with what you're arguing? Excuse me?

 

[SirAlex09]

A true resistance would work regardless of AP

I don't think you are 100% wrong. I simply believe Verses like DB and Bleach are these two exceptions where you do get better resistance and stronger hax with more AP. It's a grey area. The concept of resistances scaling with AP does exist in other verses and video games as well. Therefor that definition you use is technically flawed.

Example: In League of legends there are numerous characters whose resistances and hax scale with their AP ( = AP or AD). Like there is a rat called twitch who can poison and slow down people and it scales with his magic power or a character named Jax whose resistance to Magic or physical damage scales with his physical damage.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

I came to this thread at first to just cry about it but it seems like the tide as turned a little
So I spit out my black pill and vote disagree
If it passes anyway, oh well

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

This is just a weakness for hax in Dragon Ball specifically, being overpowered with strength.

Hard disagree with this. We've gone this song and dance multiple times in a row.

@DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama Mind responding to this?

You literally agreed with the premise of the CRT, then say the opposite. What?

The bold is literally what the CRT is trying to say, that because it's a weakness of the hax, this isn't a resistance feat

Also:

Name these other hax that have been resisted and overpowered through sheer AP.

Hit's time skip, paralysis from God Bind

This is not a set rule for Resistances. AT ALL. Exceptions exist depending on how other verses portray it. But they're just that: Exceptions. Not a rule.

Overpoweing a hax through sheer AP isn't a resistance, it's a limitation of the hax that doesn't work on stronger beings

 

[KLOL506]

You literally agreed with the premise of the CRT, then say the opposite. What?

The bold is literally what the CRT is trying to say, that because it's a weakness of the hax, this isn't a resistance feat

They serve as both. There's a reason why we don't hand out this resistance to literally everyone who has higher Ki

Also:

Hit's time skip,

Didn't Goku literally precog that shit?

paralysis from God Bind

Was that solely paralysis or just telekinesis?

Overpoweing a hax through sheer AP isn't a resistance, it's a limitation of the hax that doesn't work on stronger beings

Depends on a case by case basis.

 

[SirAlex09]

paralysis from God Bind

Overpoweing a hax through sheer AP isn't a resistance

Ah yes. Broly's AP is so much higher than Goku's.. Evident when a full power full swing cross barely hurt Goku and Goku cancelled his God binding.

According to you higher Ap means hax becomes useless therefor it isn't a resistance right? So how comes that the same hax from both didn't work on neither. If one was stronger than the other, one would assume that the hax should work according to your point right?

 

[Vizer04]

They serve as both. There's a reason why we don't hand out this resistance to literally everyone who has higher Ki

So, who gets to decide what is a resistance and what is not? This seems like a double standard to favor Dragon Ball over all the other verses.

Didn't Goku literally precog that shit?

Only in the anime, in the manga Whis explains verbatim that he overpowered Hit's Time Skip.

Was that solely paralysis or just telekinesis?

Just Paralysis, i don't think there's any mention of it being Telekinesis.

 

[KLOL506]

So, who gets to decide what is a resistance and what is not? This seems like a double standard to favour Dragon Ball over all the other verses.

It's not a matter of who, but what.

Basically, you need on-screen feats of showing resistance against the power. That's why Goku has it but Vegeta doesn't (Or at least he didn't until Toppo came along). Having high-enough power level wouldn't mean jackshit.

Only in the anime, in the manga Whis explains verbatim that he overpowered Hit's Time Skip.

WHY ARE WE USING MANGA LOGIC TO APPLY TO THE ANIME HERE. LEAVE MANGA SHIT FOR MANGA-RELATED CRTS, DON'T USE IT IN ANIME.

 

[Vizer04]

That's why Goku has it but Vegeta doesn't.

Bruh

 

[KLOL506]

Bruh

I meant when there was no Toppo episode. People were arguing to not give Vegeta resistance simply because he had a higher power level. We had to wait for Toppo to finally confirm it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They serve as both. There's a reason why we don't hand out this resistance to literally everyone who has higher Ki

No, they can't be both. They either show a resistance feat to the hax (like how Majin Vegeta broke Babidi's control over him while Dabura was a puppet to him), or they don't have that innate resistance like how it is in literally every other verse

Overpowering hax through AP goes against the literal definition of hax, so that's not a resistance feat

 

[Therefir]

I disagree, this is still a Resistance as characters from other verses where Ki doesn't exist would be erased/time stopped even if they were physically stronger than those with Ki.

 

[Vizer04]

Having high-enough power level wouldn't mean jackshit.

Then we need to add a note at the verse page to make that clear. If we don't, more people will argue that Gohan, Jiren or X character can resist Hakai when that's just not true.

 

[Vizer04]

Existance Erasure in any other verse: can erase anything and anyone regardless of their AP

Existance Erasure in Dragon Ball: can be resisted with higher AP

It's not fair (and not accurate) to give some Dragon Ball characters a resistance that shouldn't work against other verses' EE.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Existance Erasure in any other verse: can erase anything and anyone regardless of their AP

Existance Erasure in Dragon Ball: can be resisted with higher AP

It's not fair (and not accurate) to give some Dragon Ball characters a resistance that shouldn't work against other verses' EE.

And that's exactly why I say these aren't resistance feats, as they'd still get erased by EE that doesn't care about stuff like AP

 

[AguilaR202]

To recap times where higher AP didn’t stop hax from working and taking significant effect:

Guldo vs Krillin and Gohan ( timefreeze)
Roshi vs Piccolo/ Frost / Vegeta ( sealing)
Ginyu vs Everyone ( body swap)
Buu vs Ultimate Gohan ( absorbtion)
Supreme Kai vs SS2 Gohan ( paralysis)
Buu vs Vegito ( transmutation/ only unconventional resistance as Vegito still got turned to candy)
Buu vs Vegito ( absorbtion only nulled by vegito actively putting up a barrier for that still getting shrunk in the process)
Copy Vegeta vs Vegeta ( power drain ) vegeta was affected
Tired Freezas vs GoD Toppo rematch(paralysis)
Lavender vs Goku and Vegeta ( poisons,
saiyans needed active ki barrier to avoid it)

all other instances where supposedly hax is overcome through sheer AP ( headcanon assumption because it’s never stated to be the reason why it fails) :

Shenrons wishes
Hits vs Goku /Jiren ( time leap/ cage)
Majin Vegeta vs Babidi ( mind manip)
God Bind ( paralysis)

Times where its explicitly stated hax doesn’t work on stronger opponents:

Hit vs Goku ( Time skip, manga only )



This is literally the same old “Hax don’t work on DB because muh high AP numbers” in reverse.