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Removing Immeasurable high Priest
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Considering to donttalk
Its not immeasurable feats, But I still can wait input other member or moderator to reach conclusion in this CRT
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No, it's definitely a non-existent place and the concepts of distance and time don't really exist there.
The non-existent place, has non-existent coordinates and seemingly some non-existent equivalent to distance, but the concepts of distance and time in usual sense are irrelevant.
They are at any time apparently an infinite distance away and right besides each other. I would call that omnipresence.
Considering how they are supposed to be at the same time close and infinitely far from each other, it sounds more to me like them meeting only based on destiny is one of the weird properties of the place.
The MG's don't fight each other, though. At least not until they got nerfed. Any fight of them would destroy or warp the universe which is exactly what they try to prevent.
I think we already decided in the thread regarding MG's resisting all of each others abilities that reason of that nature doesn't work.
Not sure how you would get Immeasurable speed now that being beyond the concept of distance and time isn't considered as such anymore.
The big difference between Aleister and the MG's was always that Aleister operates in spacetime, while the full power MG's by nature can not. Their existence is too big to be contained within existence, so any fight with them ends up in a place like the hidden world per default. It's their native place.
Aleister's entrance in the world is also indicated to have essentially destroyed it, i.e. made it lose the properties that made it useful for the MG's. So he wasn't quite in the same hidden world as them.
Like, I guess if we don't want to go with omnipresence, we could also go with "Unknown (Since their existence is too big to be contained in the normal world, they exclusively exist in a non-existent place lacking the usual concepts of space and time, and entering the normal world would immediately destroy it returning them to a space of such a nature. As such speed isn't a meaningful concept to them)"
or something like that.
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I don't think that proves omnipresence and "infinite distance away and right besides" is a property of the distorted phase rather than the Magic Gods themselves. We have High Priest wondering where Niang-Niang went and where the others in True Gremlin are and Niang-Niang responding with it's only by destiny's hand whether they run into each other where even the tiniest gap is an infinite distance. They are clearly "moving". This wouldn't be the case if they all simply possessed omnipresence.
Heavens_Feel
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No. This just describes the hidden worlds properties, where even the smallest "Gap" (distance, think of mm's or cm's if it helps you understand it better) extends on for infinity.
So the hairs breadth quote is a metaphor for how even though they were close to each other, it was still a infinite distance away
Basically, the Magic gods moves across a untold amount of infinite distances to get to anywhere.
At the very Least, True Gremlin should have infinite speed, if not just stay at Immeasurable.
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This is a mere description of how the tiniest distant can expands to infinity, it's literally how it's described in the novels, what is so hard to understand?
Nah your are just inserting your assumption into it making it more complicated when it doesn't need to be.
What does then? the distant in the hidden worlds are infinite and the MGs trivialized by ignoring time as well, the only thing written in the speed section is that their Movement has to be beyond linear time, and I am not sure how ignoring the concept of time doesn't grant you that.
You want it to be literally spilled for you? It's not like any of the linked profiles for said ever provide a source or text for the "beyond liner time" movement
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On a side note, I feel like it would make more sense to put this down to their ability to control fate and probability. It would explain why up to three or more of them were present in the same "place", despite how unlikely and "up to destiny" it was.
But as Zensum stated, they have at the very least, demonstrated an ability to traverse infinite distances to meet each other, so maybe they should have infinite speed. The issue with this though is that it implies that they are somehow bound by linear time, given the nature of "infinite speed", which I think we all agree, isn't the case, and as you have also pointed out.
It would've been easy and straightforward to just put them at "infinite speed", if it weren't for the explicit statement that "time doesn't matter/apply" in that world. So considering all that, maybe a rating like "infinite, but are unbound by linear time" would make sense, but isn't that just "immeasurable speed" all the same?
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As I mentioned already, the MG's at full power can't exist within normal existent spacetime. Their nature is hence kinda bound to the hidden world. Debating their speed in the human world, makes as much sense as debating whether a character that sees our reality as fiction would have a different speed if we somehow forced it to exist in our world. Since the consideration changes their nature, it's pointless.
Let me quote the speed page:
Just being beyond distance and time in a not specified manner doesn't qualify for that, particularly not the latter parts.
I also find it very strange, that you on one hand want the statement of the place being beyond distance and time to be true, yet on the other hand wish to interpret the hair's breadth and infinite distance statement as a statement regarding distance. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.
A "hair's breadth is infinite distance"-type of statement is obviously a paradox. Taking it as just the infinite distance is ignoring the part where that is the same as a hair's breadth. What it says is that the very small distance and very large distance is the same thing. In other words, it is extending on how the concept of distance just makes absolutely no sense in this place.
I mean, this is a non-existent place with non-existent coordinates, in which distance and time supposedly are irrelevant. Trying to interpret it as having literal space like features will hardly work.
She then says how in this place where distance and time make no sense, due to being non-existent, destiny is what regulates whether beings meet or not.
Maybe, maybe not. It could be the case, although that is just speculation. Given that we know they can manipulate destiny even passively, it is something they should probably be able to do. I guess one could lay that out in favor of the magic gods, if one accepts that the usually spatiotemporal relationships in the hidden world are governed by destiny instead.
Thing is, my argument for anything regarding existence beyond linear time hinges on the fact that distance and time in this place don't really exist. So we can't on one hand argue that they should cross infinite distance and on the other that the place has no concept of distance.
No, not really. A time traveler is not bound by linear time, but that doesn't make immeasurable. You have to be beyond linear time in a certain sense, as Note 7 specifies.
All in all, I think my current position is similar to what I mentioned in my last post: It might be best to simply put an explanation of the weird relation the hidden world has to the concepts of space, time and hence speed, on the page and their relationship to the place and its nature. No speed value we have is a perfect fit for that strangeness.
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My post is purely in the context of the Hidden World. "Their nature is hence kinda bound to the hidden world." Sure, in that the properties of the phase can support the existence of True Gremlin while normal spacetime can't, but ascribing anything else on them needs more textual evidence.
Yes it's a paradox. It's a distorted phase as Aleister puts it and High Priest says in another conversation that some concepts are allowed to exist even if they can’t be properly defined. However, the main point is whatever the properties of the Hidden World are, the Magic Gods aren't omnipresent there as:
a) It's still by destiny’s hands whether they run across each other which you seem to acknowledge. The text even says Niang-Niang, High Priest and Nephthys were prepared to scatter apart after their conversation had ended and they corrected Othinus' disorder.
b) In the 3's conversations they speak of Chimera and Zombie and the other Magic Gods as if they are "elsewhere" and aren't listening in.
Their speed would have to be based on whatever rating constitutes moving freely where time, distance, direction depth... etc are ill-defined.
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IMO Ant, I think you should take a step back until the discussion reach a conclusion or until both side make their points clear to each other before taking a side.
You trust DT's sense of judgment, we know.
But no one is rushing this and if you find it a bother you should un-watch the thread for the time being, don't worry if we reach a counclusion here you WILL be notified
You trust DT's sense of judgment, we know.
But no one is rushing this and if you find it a bother you should un-watch the thread for the time being, don't worry if we reach a counclusion here you WILL be notified
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We do have some more info from the few passing in nt 12
"
Darkness covered the entire area.
Not only could one not see an inch in front of their face, but the darkness seemed to pass through their eyeballs and bear down on their mind.
However, the people drifting through that darkness showed no concern. They implicitly said that this was the natural state of the world or that someone had yet to whisper “let there be light”.
Direction and depth were indistinguishable in that black space, but three distinct presences existed there."
"Despite her comment, the girl called Niang-Niang giggled and showed no real sign of hesitation.
The three presences intentionally all looked in the same direction.
That produced directionality in the all-encompassing and heavy darkness.
That directionality took the form of depth and finally defined the entire space.
The woman called Nephthys sang in a sweet voice that seemed to enchant the brain of all who heard it.
“Hello, world.”
A heavy metallic crash burst out.
“Hello, science side.”
A vertical line of thin, thin white light appeared in the surface of darkness.
“Hello, Academy City.”
Double-doors opened."
"
Darkness covered the entire area.
Not only could one not see an inch in front of their face, but the darkness seemed to pass through their eyeballs and bear down on their mind.
However, the people drifting through that darkness showed no concern. They implicitly said that this was the natural state of the world or that someone had yet to whisper “let there be light”.
Direction and depth were indistinguishable in that black space, but three distinct presences existed there."
"Despite her comment, the girl called Niang-Niang giggled and showed no real sign of hesitation.
The three presences intentionally all looked in the same direction.
That produced directionality in the all-encompassing and heavy darkness.
That directionality took the form of depth and finally defined the entire space.
The woman called Nephthys sang in a sweet voice that seemed to enchant the brain of all who heard it.
“Hello, world.”
A heavy metallic crash burst out.
“Hello, science side.”
A vertical line of thin, thin white light appeared in the surface of darkness.
“Hello, Academy City.”
Double-doors opened."
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My initial suggestion came from the fact that they are all in a certain sense besides each other. As far as our speed rating go, I thought Omnipresence would be closest to what the hidden world is. Anyways, since then I already suggested other speed ratings for them. Summarizing it, maybe something like this:
Possibly in addition to further explanations regarding what is stated about the hidden world.
We don't have a "speed doesn't make sense"-tier, so that is the best we can do.
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Can't we add a "likely immeasurable"? I know timeless voids aren't valid for immeasurable anymore, but i really think there is something about speed when gods destroy the concept of space and time and keep moving and talking normally that there isn't when your shonen MC goes into a timeless void to fight the bad guy.
Yes it's pretty much the same thing (a timeless void) but still, the flow of time clearly has no meaning to one of them.
Yes it's pretty much the same thing (a timeless void) but still, the flow of time clearly has no meaning to one of them.
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Thing is, Immeasurable is much about naturally moving backwards and forwards in time. It's about things like being able to react to attacks that hit you 5 seconds ago. We just don't have that here.
They have at most feats of being as immeasurable as a character that is omnipresent throughout spacetime would be by default, even if the gods are not actually omnipresent. However, that is not really being Immeasurable in combat speed.
They have at most feats of being as immeasurable as a character that is omnipresent throughout spacetime would be by default, even if the gods are not actually omnipresent. However, that is not really being Immeasurable in combat speed.
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How would you get infinite, though.
As said, taking the "hair’s breadth and an infinite distance away" statement as just "infinite distance" would be ignoring the "hair's breadth" part. It's about distance making no sense/being irrelevant in the realm, not about crossing infinite distances (which we know don't exist in the realm, because distance as such doesn't really exist).
As said, taking the "hair’s breadth and an infinite distance away" statement as just "infinite distance" would be ignoring the "hair's breadth" part. It's about distance making no sense/being irrelevant in the realm, not about crossing infinite distances (which we know don't exist in the realm, because distance as such doesn't really exist).
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Yea,That's the best
Heavens_Feel
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Why the distance doesn't make sense, or as niang says, "Doesn't matter" is because every "small distance" extends on for infinity. that's why it makes no sense. Not because it's a nonexistant space with no coordinates, It's because every instance extends for infinity. (You can't plot coordinates for infinity, which is likely why Aleister said non-existant numbers, infinity isn't a number) The characters reiterate this twice. they are, without a doubt, crossing infinite distances. The text says so. Which is why it's so rare that they come across eachother.
“It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across
each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆”
“The concepts of distance and time don’t matter here, remember? And I can’t leave
regardless. Even if I did, I’d just end up gathering unwanted attention on a global scale
like Othinus. I was a hair’s breadth and an infinite distance away.” ~Niang
The hairs breadth quote is being misconstrued to mean something else other than the fact that it's purpose is to prove that even the smallest of distances, like a hairs breadth, is extended to a infinite distance away, which is to back up the paragraph right before that one.
Also the thing about destiny (the literal definition) being the thing that governs whether Magic gods meet in the hidden world is false. once again, the text is being taken too literal and is mistaking a figure of speech.
“
It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across
each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆” ~niang
Niang is stating here that it's upto destiny (pure luck, coincidence) that they come across eachother. We can confirm that this is purely luck and not due to some fate, because well, Magic Gods can manipulate destiny to begin with, so if they wanted to meet eachother they could have manipulated "destiny" to do so. However we are told that it's purely "upto destiny", a metaphor for luck. like they both just happened to cross eachother on the street.
With this in mind I still believe Infinite speed fits best, if Immeasurable is unreasonable. I'm not familiar enough with this site to figure out what exactly Immeasurable qualifies as these days, but Infinite speed should be pretty straight shooting.
“It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across
each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆”
“The concepts of distance and time don’t matter here, remember? And I can’t leave
regardless. Even if I did, I’d just end up gathering unwanted attention on a global scale
like Othinus. I was a hair’s breadth and an infinite distance away.” ~Niang
The hairs breadth quote is being misconstrued to mean something else other than the fact that it's purpose is to prove that even the smallest of distances, like a hairs breadth, is extended to a infinite distance away, which is to back up the paragraph right before that one.
Also the thing about destiny (the literal definition) being the thing that governs whether Magic gods meet in the hidden world is false. once again, the text is being taken too literal and is mistaking a figure of speech.
“
It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across
each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆” ~niang
Niang is stating here that it's upto destiny (pure luck, coincidence) that they come across eachother. We can confirm that this is purely luck and not due to some fate, because well, Magic Gods can manipulate destiny to begin with, so if they wanted to meet eachother they could have manipulated "destiny" to do so. However we are told that it's purely "upto destiny", a metaphor for luck. like they both just happened to cross eachother on the street.
With this in mind I still believe Infinite speed fits best, if Immeasurable is unreasonable. I'm not familiar enough with this site to figure out what exactly Immeasurable qualifies as these days, but Infinite speed should be pretty straight shooting.
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I could be mistaken, but isn’t that what this portion of the immeasurable description is:
“Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied.”
Since it's a paradox, it makes speed unable to be defined as this is in the Hidden World and you can't really tell if they would be time traveling since the time concept doesn't work in the same way as in normal space time.
Well the world is nonexistent, but the phase does have a few properties that do exist to support the Magic Gods even if their values make no conventional sense like time and distance.
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I mean, it's not really 'unknown' as in 'we don't know their speed'. It's unknown with an explanation of how they would work speed-wise, as it doesn't easily fit any one speed rating we have exactly.
They are crossing infinite distances which simultaneously are extremely small distances. Again, saying they simply move infinite distances is ignoring the fact that they simultaneously are only moving a hair's breadth.
And no, the coordinate thing isn't because infinite stuff, but because it is a non-existent place, which is hence not even a "place". That's why the concepts of distance and time don't matter and why the place has no such thing as depth, until they open a hole in it to enter Academy City.
Luck and coincidence are huge parts of what destiny is, though. In fact, many people would consider those pretty much the same, with destiny being what random events guide you to.
Also, yeah MG's can manipulate fate. They can also manipulate probability. In fact, I seriously doubt that if a MG actively tried to meet another one they would be unable to do so.
In any case, I maintain my position that in that place in which distance and time are meaningless destiny or chance or whatever you wanna call it, are what governs meeting.
Immeasurable is more than just S=D/T doesn't apply. The speed page refers to Note 6 & 7 for that reason.
Yes, I guess. Not sure how this relates to infinite speed, though.
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This response is going to be a little off topic, but is it actually the concept of both distance and time not existing, or is it just distance up to where the hidden world scales not existing? (Sorry if this response reads weird)
Bump
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Not sure I understand the question correctly. However, both the concept of distance and time don't exist.
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Hey @DontTalkDT
Isn’t this grounds for creating and implementing something like Inaccessible Speed?
This would be the ability to move or travel any distance (be it finite or infinite), within 0 amount of time.
It’s different from Infinite Speed, in the sense that 0 time is taken when traveling a distance here, and it would fit all those characters who don’t really qualify for Immeasurable Speed via moving in a timeless void, or in time stop (via sheer speed).
I can elaborate on it further, if you wish.
If accepted, this rating would fall somewhere above Infinite Speed, and below Immeasurable Speed
Isn’t this grounds for creating and implementing something like Inaccessible Speed?
This would be the ability to move or travel any distance (be it finite or infinite), within 0 amount of time.
It’s different from Infinite Speed, in the sense that 0 time is taken when traveling a distance here, and it would fit all those characters who don’t really qualify for Immeasurable Speed via moving in a timeless void, or in time stop (via sheer speed).
I can elaborate on it further, if you wish.
If accepted, this rating would fall somewhere above Infinite Speed, and below Immeasurable Speed
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Honestly, I agree with this.
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With infinite speed you can travel any finite distance in 0 time. Whether infinite speed travels infinite distance in finite or 0 time isn't necessarily clear, but 0 time for infinite distance is a possibility for infinite speed as well.
In any case... this wouldn't be grounds for creating it, since that is not what the magic gods are doing. Distance and time just doesn't properly exist for them at all.
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So you’re suggesting that say, someone who travels an infinite distance in 120 minutes is just as fast as someone who travels the same distance in 0 time? I mean the equation for speed has always been S=D/T, so why would it make sense to suddenly just ignore the time difference in this instance, and just consider the distance?
In Inaccessible Speed, the rating is basically the speed equivalent to an inaccessible cardinal, whereby no matter how many sets you try to add on to an aleph null, you’ll never be able to reach an inaccessible cardinal. So, seeing as zero overrides infinity, a character with any amount of finite speed up to infinite speed would not be able to travel in zero time. Even if you have infinite speed, you would need a finite amount of time to travel, and since there isn't any, those characters will be unable to do so.
Isn't this just Irrelevant Speed? Would it make sense to just give them Irrelevant Speed up to a certain degree (11-D), because as you previously noted, any fight involving them (11-D or below) would just end up returning the world to this state (where time and distance are inconsequential), hence essentially making speed a non factor?
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It honestly "Inaccessible Speed" proposal just sounds redundant and another version of infinite speed. Infinite speed is both of these; can travel infinite distances or perform an infinite number of actions within a finite timeframe or can travel any finite distances or perform any finite number of actions in 0 time. And Immeasurable speed is basically there is no time period in their native timeline they cannot travel to, and have reactions described as "Faster than instantaneous". Or more literal definition of Immeasurable is perceiving at least one temporal dimension as an open spaced spatial dimension to roam around and react to freely within.
Also, Irrelevant Speed currently has an on going discussion and even possible talks about removing it, but staff seemed split about that.
Also, Irrelevant Speed currently has an on going discussion and even possible talks about removing it, but staff seemed split about that.
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I belive it's because infinite is the same result even for 39 seconds or 1 hour
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Cardinality has no relation to speed. Cardinality is about amounts.
And mathematically all you're describing is just infinite. One could debate if it's a higher level of infinite than normal infinite, although that would be difficult to mathematically justify.
As DDM says Irrelevant is possibly getting nuked soon anyway. That aside, irrelevant speed always required qualitative superiority about spacetime in general (1-A level), not merely existing outside of spacetime like the MG's are doing.
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It's hard to talk about conclusions.
My personal current suggestion is:
That said, I don't have the impression many other To Aru supporters are on board with that. However, I haven't seen a good alternative suggestion from them either. The other suggestions seem to generally either be against our wiki standards on Immeasurable speed or ignore everything about the Magic Gods explanations aside from an "infinite distance" part to try to get infinite speed. I don't think either is an option I should accept just due to it being more popular amongst supporters.
So as it stands I'm kinda stuck.
My personal current suggestion is:
Or something in that direction. Basically setting them to unknown and explaining the unique nature of the speed.
That said, I don't have the impression many other To Aru supporters are on board with that. However, I haven't seen a good alternative suggestion from them either. The other suggestions seem to generally either be against our wiki standards on Immeasurable speed or ignore everything about the Magic Gods explanations aside from an "infinite distance" part to try to get infinite speed. I don't think either is an option I should accept just due to it being more popular amongst supporters.
So as it stands I'm kinda stuck.
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To be honest, in regards to the infinite distance thing, given the further context that was later provided about the ‘smallest distances extending for infinity’, I still believe that the ‘hair’s breath’ line was just to demonstrate the scale of how even an insignificant distance was the equivalent of infinity. But clearly, since there does seem to be a considerable degree of disagreement about it, it’s not as straightforward as it seems. And I guess there’s also the fact that the place being described isn’t actually a “place” in the conventional sense, with no concept of both time and distance, further adding to whatever doubts there may be.
Personally, I’m okay with this rating, seeing as it does offer an explanation on their nature and how they exist and interact with time and space (which is the goal here), and it’s better than the alternative of trying to cram them into a rating that would later bring about inconsistencies.
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