Removing Immeasurable high Priest

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose DT's latest post makes sense.

 

[Cloozuma]

Ig I should agree with DT.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

To be honest, in regards to the infinite distance thing, given the further context that was later provided about the ‘smallest distances extending for infinity’, I still believe that the ‘hair’s breath’ line was just to demonstrate the scale of how even an insignificant distance was the equivalent of infinity. But clearly, since there does seem to be a considerable degree of disagreement about it.

I mean, theres only 1 person who disagrees with it, I don't think theres much disagreement over it. every other person I know who reads this series interprets it the way you do.

My points still stand from earlier, this argument is circular though so i'm not regurgitating the same points, so I would suggest going back and finding my comment, if anyone cares enough to read it. MG's are not governed by one of the very aspects they control. It's silly.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply DontTalk's suggestion then?

 

[Fixxed]

Change to unknown, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

 

[ZERO7772]

I still strongly disagree with DT suggestion alongside most of other Toaru supports.

I think Heaves_Feel suggestion of giving them simply Infinite speed is far more simple and straight forward.
The only reason people started suggesting weird speeds is cuz DT spat stuff like "out system doesn't apply to them" when it's just a simply case of characters travailing infinite distance.

 

[Accelerate420]

What is even going on here? Geez.

I agree with Heavens Feel. DT is just overcomplicating the quote because of its flagrant writing. Regardless of the 'hairs breath' part, the fact about infinite distance is more important. Just put them to Infinite speed, it's the same thing. If you can move infinitely then anything can be a hairs breath away, it's not that hard.

Man.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. There seems to be some disagreements then.

@LazyHunter what do you think?

 

[DontTalkDT]

If it comes down to it, I suppose we can do it as we did with the magic god resistance thread:
Everyone gives me all quotes they consider relevant, I add my own, then we compile the suggested ratings and their reasoning as it would be put on the page and I @ a bunch of staff members to have them decide this.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, if you write a proper explanation of the arguments here, that would greatly help our staff members to evaluate this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, so let me compile all quotes I consider relevant. Then anyone that disagrees can tell me if they want to add more. After everything is compiled I will call more people over.
So relevant for me:
1. Explanations regarding the hidden world:

It may have been wrong to refer to that place as dark. In fact, the word “place” was not entirely accurate either. Non-existent things could not be explained. Nevertheless, a few voices lurked within where no one could interfere.

“We have no more attachment to Othinus herself, but this ending could hinder Kamijou Touma’s future. Then again, I doubt anyone but us could resolve this now that a magic god is involved. It would be a shame to have the direction thrown off so much for something so trivial.”

“High Priest, we’re thinking about influencing events by interfering with the existing world, aren’t we?”

“Don’t worry, Nephthys. The old man isn’t so foolish he wouldn’t calculate all that out. This shows just how different an existence Othinus was. Although I doubt she realized the truth behind Gremlin.”

“Othinus was a failure.”

“She reached the level of magic god, so there is no reason to be that cruel.”

“High Priest, you’re as kind as ever when it comes to judging others. If it didn’t come from looking down on everyone, you might have actually achieved enlightenment.”

“Nephthys, we are all lacking in some way. Othinus was remarkable yet went a bit too far, but that is just the kind of person Gremlin gathers.”

“Gremlin, the name of a plain fairy that is not dyed in the colors of any existing religion.”

“Instead of being a fusion of science and magic, it’s an organization that every magic god of every religion can take part in equally☆”

“Oh, Niang-Niang. Where have you been?”

“The concepts of distance and time don’t matter here, remember? And I can’t leave regardless. Even if I did, I’d just end up gathering unwanted attention on a global scale like Othinus. I was a hair’s breadth and an infinite distance away.”

“Does the same go for the others?”

“Old man, did you start forgetting things once you became a mummy? The zombie girl, the chimera, and everyone are here. It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆”

“If you think about it, you could call this our way of being ecological. We do it because the world is too small for us to live in, but it isn’t easy putting up with being here.”

“That’s why I’m so mad at Othinus for being so selfish☆”

“Yes, but the strength of the world was enough to withstand everything she did. It will not have any real effect on the situation.”

“Then can we continue as planned?”

“Most definitely, Nephthys. The High Priest has just corrected the disorder caused by Othinus. From here on, Gremlin will show its true value.”

The conversation came to an end. In that place that did not exist in the world, they prepared to scatter apart.

But something happened a moment before they could.

“Hello there. I’ve finally found you, Gremlin.”

The darkness audibly split apart.

An external power caused a vertical tear.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

“Oh?”

“Someone” narrowed their eyes at the intense white light from outside.

That “someone” watched as the perpetrator set foot in that divine territory.

“I had noticed you had not shown yourself recently, but I see you were busy with a touching side job.”

The hoarse voice went on to speak a somehow nostalgic name.

“Aleister Crowley the Human.”

This magician had silver hair that reached his ankles and wore a green hospital gown. That human looked both male and female, both childlike and aged, and both saintly and sinful. His expression as he answered could have been interpreted as any number of emotions.

“Letting Othinus run free would have been a problem, but I left that to the strength of the world. The world was temporarily led to destruction as a result, but I still had to prioritize this. It wasn’t easy converting coordinates filled with non-existent numbers into decimal.”

Their safe territory was gone.

They would now be thrown out into the existing world and pursued by the people who lived there.

2. Little extra stuff we learn when they leave it + can't exist in existence without destroying it.

“So have we managed to finish in time, Nephthys?”

An old man’s voice spoke in the darkness. More than simply “wrinkled”, the voice was better described as “dried-up”.

The responding voice sounded like a young and bewitching beauty.

“Yes. That zombie girl is useful at times like this. Thanks to her background of actively drawing in a great number of cultures, she has an affinity for most anything.”

“But, High Priest,” cut in a girl’s voice that sounded even younger and also childish. “Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

“It doesn’t matter if it’s a mere deception as long as it works. Just like a Moebius strip or a Klein bottle, some concepts are allowed to exist even if they can’t be properly defined, Niang-Niang.”

“Yeah, but I prefer practical ideas over theories. You could say I’m the inventor type instead of the scientist type. I have a hard time believing it’ll actually work just because the theories all add up. I can’t rest easy until I try it out for myself and see that it works.”

“Then how about we try it?”

“Are you sure we should turn the world into our toy so casually?”

Despite her comment, the girl called Niang-Niang giggled and showed no real sign of hesitation.

The three presences intentionally all looked in the same direction.

That produced directionality in the all-encompassing and heavy darkness.

That directionality took the form of depth and finally defined the entire space.

The woman called Nephthys sang in a sweet voice that seemed to enchant the brain of all who heard it.

“Hello, world.”

A heavy metallic crash burst out.

“Hello, science side.”

A vertical line of thin, thin white light appeared in the surface of darkness.

“Hello, Academy City.”

Double-doors opened.

The three Magic Gods filled their lungs with the air of Academy City.

And my hypothesis is that those quotes would result in the following ranking:

Unknown (Since their existence is too big to be contained in the normal world, they can exclusively exist in a non-existent place lacking the usual concepts of distance and time, and entering the normal world would immediately destroy it returning them to a space of such a nature. As such speed isn't a meaningful concept to them. Instead whether or not something meets in this place is entirely regulated by destiny.)

Give me your hypothesis with their corresponding explanation as well, so that I don't forget to quote any position.

 

[Accelerate420]

I am looking forward to this appeal to authority.

 

[ZERO7772]

I am personally very against this because the appeal to authority would be real. If only Lazy would give his input here ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Antvasima]

A large part of the entire point of having a staff is to have them help out by evaluating content revisions threads, so I would appreciate if the rest of you collaborate with DontTalk by helping him compile the most relevant arguments.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I am looking forward to this appeal to authority.

I am personally very against this because the appeal to authority would be real.

It's just that asking the most knowledgeable neutral people we have around, i.e. the staff, to evaluate this is the only way to come to a decision.
And that's the standard practice in this forum. And it's a good way because any fanbase is by nature biased and we hence need to evaluate things as a community beyond just the fanbase to reach equal standards for all profiles. Not to mention that we need some means to come to decisions to prevent threads from just never reaching any conclusion.

Also, if we don't reach a conclusion soon we will at least have to remove the, by now conclusively rejected, Immeasurable speed from their profiles so that they aren't wrong for much longer. So basically, either you can make an attempt to reach a conclusion on this or you just get "unknown" without any explanation attached as long as there is no decision. Do you want that? Because I don't.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalk. You should all try to collaborate with him.

 

[Axscell]

Sorry this may be a bit off-topic, but does transcending the temporal dimension within ones respective setting grant them immeasurable speed?

 

[Fixxed]

Sorry this may be a bit off-topic, but does transcending the temporal dimension within ones respective setting grant them immeasurable speed?

No, still need specific context to grant immeasurable speed

 

[Malox1696]

I don't really mind the explanation but considering the function of the forum how do it work during Vs battle ? What would it equate to ?

Btw the explanation is very close to the irrevelant tier right ?

 

[Antvasima]

No. Also, we will revise the Irrelevant speed definition soon.

 

[Malox1696]

Ok but about the first 2 questions?

 

[Antvasima]

I did not understand them.

 

[Malox1696]

I'm simply asking if one were to use him in a Vs battle and not equalise speed how does his speed work, how does it translate in a battle

 

[Fixxed]

Should we change it now? Or still waiting input High Priest supporter?

 

[Antvasima]

I'm simply asking if one were to use him in a Vs battle and not equalise speed how does his speed work, how does it translate in a battle

If he has unknown speed, it would always need to be equalised.

 

[XDragnoir]

Unknown (Since their existence is too big to be contained in the normal world, they can exclusively exist in a non-existent place lacking the usual concepts of distance and time, and entering the normal world would immediately destroy it returning them to a space of such a nature. As such speed isn't a meaningful concept to them. Instead whether or not something meets in this place is entirely regulated by destiny.)

About the bolded part, didn't we agree they were 3D beings with 11D power? Their existence isn't any different than any other and we don't acknowledge this (which would be something like higher D existence and Large Size 10) anywhere so i really don't like adding this here just to make their passive universe busting seem more than it is, what connects with my next point:

Anyway, it's not that this is wrong, but this has 0 relation to speed, they aren't affected by things like time stop or places without air, and they have a passive destruction from their power but that's it, i think even "at least sub-rel, likely much higher" works better than this.

 

[Axscell]

About the bolded part, didn't we agree they were 3D beings with 11D power? Their existence isn't any different than any other and we don't acknowledge this (which would be something like higher D existence and Large Size 10) anywhere so really don't like adding this here just to make their passive universe busting to be more than it is, what connects with my next point:

Isn't that just Othinus though? I mean, the true MGs were wary about destroying the whole world by merely moving an arm or leg after all.

“If you think about it, you could call this our way of being ecological. We do it because the world is too small for us to live in, but it isn’t easy putting up with being here.”

“That’s why I’m so mad at Othinus for being so selfish☆”

“Yes, but the strength of the world was enough to withstand everything she did. It will not have any real effect on the situation.”

“But, High Priest,” cut in a girl’s voice that sounded even younger and also childish. “Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about.

 

[XDragnoir]

Isn't that just Othinus though? I mean, the true MGs were wary about destroying the whole world by merely moving an arm or leg after all.

Pretty sure we all agree it applies to all MGs, Aleister was able to interact with them normally after all.

 

[Delta333]

There is no large size on any MG profile so their existence should not be different than any other

 

[DontTalkDT]

If he has unknown speed, it would always need to be equalised.

Usually I would agree, but since this is Unknown not due to lack of knowing how fast they are, but due to lack of a fitting rating, I believe matches could work without speed equalization.

I'm simply asking if one were to use him in a Vs battle and not equalise speed how does his speed work, how does it translate in a battle

Well, basically the fight would start and they would immediately destroy spacetime due to their passive universe destruction. Consequently, the fight would happen in a nonexistent place like the hidden world in which normal speed is meaningless. Instead (unless the opponent has some weird powers that change that), whoever has the greatest control over destiny gets to say whether or not attacks hit or whether a character manages to close in or not.

There will definitely be many debates over how this interacts with other characters, but that's the basic case, I think.

Unknown (Since their existence is too big to be contained in the normal world, they can exclusively exist in a non-existent place lacking the usual concepts of distance and time, and entering the normal world would immediately destroy it returning them to a space of such a nature. As such speed isn't a meaningful concept to them. Instead whether or not something meets in this place is entirely regulated by destiny.)

About the bolded part, didn't we agree they were 3D beings with 11D power? Their existence isn't any different than any other and we don't acknowledge this (which would be something like higher D existence and Large Size 10) anywhere so i really don't like adding this here just to make their passive universe busting seem more than it is, what connects with my next point:

Anyway, it's not that this is wrong, but this has 0 relation to speed, they aren't affected by things like time stop or places without air, and they have a passive destruction from their power but that's it, i think even "at least sub-rel, likely much higher" works better than this.

I mean, their existence in this context means primarily their power, as we see from the fact that splitting it allows them to exist in it. Their power is what is too big to be contained. If you wish I can put it as "their power" instead of "their existence".
One could add an "at least sub-rel" rating as addition to that, to also give them a "normal" speed, though. Might not be a bad idea.

Reminds me that I have to get that speed calc from a while ago checked out...

 

[XDragnoir]

That's perfect for me.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached some kind of agreement here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I suppose the following option has gathered sufficient agreement then:

Unknown (Since their power is too big to be contained in the normal world, they can exclusively exist in a non-existent place lacking the usual concepts of distance and time, and entering the normal world would immediately destroy it returning them to a space of such a nature. As such speed isn't a meaningful concept to them. Instead whether or not something meets in this place is entirely regulated by destiny.), at least Sub-Relativistic (If not for their special nature they would scale above the likes of Coronzon in speed.)

 

[Fixxed]

Agree with dontTalk

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is probably fine then, unless there is heavy informed opposition to it.

 

[Fixxed]

I suppose that is probably fine then, unless there is heavy informed opposition to it.

Can you open up the High Priest profile, so I can edit it?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk can probably handle it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I suppose I will go do the edits myself soon. That's easier than unlocking and relocking all the profiles.

 

[Fixxed]

Thanks for helping out