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Removing Goku's Time Stop Resistance

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ByAsura said:
It's being projected onto Jiren. He's even moving before he starts to overpower it.
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That clearly show him resisting it
ByAsura said:
He's not resisting, though. King Kai confirmed that he wasn't.
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doesn't denied the fact goku was moving in hit time leap while he was frozen in time
ByAsura said:
It's stated that Jiren was paralysed or frozen. He's moving the whole time, even jittering before he actually overpowers the technique.
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He was frozen in time it was stated by vados he frozen and champa and hit himself and when jiren broke free of hit time cage vados directly stated jiren transcend time so he transcend hit ability of time stop so he resisting hit time stop and ability
 
Someone asked me to say this.

"He keeps insisting that Goku is moving during Time Skip, so it's not Time Stop, when Goku's actual posture both pre and post time-skip is the same. Goku got pummeled out of stance during Time Skip. So ByAsura's narrative won't work since we have Pre- And Post- Time Skip Posture for Goku and it didn't change at all".
 
@Ripple I didn't say Jiren wasn't resisting it. My point was that Jiren was never frozen in time even before he started to overpower the technique.

It explains how he was doing it, though—by countering it with time manipulation.

He never, ever said frozen in time. Factually, he was always moving, even if it was only a little.

@Axx Firstly, I love how they're using the term "narrative", as if I'm a propaganda news paper.

Secondly, you see and hear Goku make noise, open his eyes and mouth, etc, which suggests that he wasn't just frozen. The fact that his stance was relatively similar doesn't change this fact. Is this man here frozen in time?

I'll admit that it might not be time travel, but the ability itself is never expressed very well. What is expressed is that the power doesn't stop time. This is not a change to Hit's profile, it's a change to Goku's resistances because he's not resisting anything.
 
It would if I were still using that line of reasoning (or even actually made that line of reasoning, because I never said Goku was going to the future through sheer speed, but whatever) for Kaioken SSB, but someone showed that Goku was countering through time travel and I conceded to that point.
 
All removing the resistance does is make it an immeasurable speed feat. He's moving forwards through time, and is blitzing someone else who can keep up with him moving through time with his ability. If you agree that the resistance is wrong, which is something I agree with, the only other option for this is Immeasurable speed.
 
No it's not, the other option is limited time travel because Goku was countering with that ability according to King Kai. Also, aren't you the one who said that time-skip wasn't time travel and showed a clip of Hit not time travelling?

Also, speed is shown to be finite even amongst GoD and Angels. Since you disagree with resistance as well, then it's something else.

Tbh, I'm leaning on time-skip being something between time travel and just moving 0.1 seconds with complete control over what he's doing. Either way, it's not resistance.
 
I never said it wasn't time travel, I just showed a case of him attacking during time-skip.

Also, that implies Goku replicated time-skip. But, Goku doesn't have time manipulation, which would mean he's doing it through his speed. Which is something you agreed on.
 
Sorry, the statement you made was vague, so I just assumed you were disagreeing.

Which is why I'm trying to get it added. I never agreed to that, or at least not purposefully. What I initially believed was that Kaioken Goku was just too fast for Hit's ability, but that's wrong.
 
If Hit's ability is time travel via hax, then Goku's only options are 1. Time hax that he never used past that, and is never stated to have, or 2. Immeasurable. There's no other way to look at it here.
 
King Kai literally says he did this during the battle with Kaioken. So he has it.
 
ByAsura said:
@Ripple I didn't say Jiren wasn't resisting it. My point was that Jiren was never frozen in time even before he started to overpower the technique.

It explains how he was doing it, though—by countering it with time manipulation.

He never, ever said frozen in time. Factually, he was always moving, even if it was only a little.

@Axx Firstly, I love how they're using the term "narrative", as if I'm a propaganda news paper.

Secondly, you see and hear Goku make noise, open his eyes and mouth, etc, which suggests that he wasn't just frozen. The fact that his stance was relatively similar doesn't change this fact. Is this man here frozen in time?

I'll admit that it might not be time travel, but the ability itself is never expressed very well. What is expressed is that the power doesn't stop time. This is not a change to Hit's profile, it's a change to Goku's resistances because he's not resisting anything.
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well it stated by 3 people that he was frozen and this was a time ability and this was his trump card meaning he used his most powerful ability so it be above time leap and his other ability.
hit is freezing him in time or suspend him in time which then back my point by vados and supreme kai saying time meaning noting to him

goku never made any noises but whatever goku was already still resisting that skip because it show if your more powerful then your opponents or same level there ability can have less affect on you which then proves what I said like when goku goes kiao ken and moves in hit time skip while he was frozen in time and attacks hit

lol I swear this just going be like yes he move in time stop no he didn'
 
Is Time Travel via sheer speed still Immeasurable? I thought Immeasurable standards were revised or something?
 
@Ripple I don't care if they say he's frozen. Frozen and frozen in time aren't mutually exclusive. Another word they use is paralysed.

The time cage is time-skip, though, it's just continuously applied on Jiren, who can effortlessly break his normal time-skip and pocket dimensions.

You're right, I was confusing the noise with Rad's other clip. However, he's very, very visibly doing things like opening his eyes. Ok, but this isn't proof, regardless, because Goku wasn't suspended in time, anyway.

@Axx That doesn't suggest it was via speed. Goku has the power to copy other powers, as well.
 
How else did he time travel, then? He never showed time hax afterwards. Either way, if he got time travel, that would mean everyone after Hit that keeps up with Goku either has time travel, or Immeasurable speed.
 
Because you're assuming that it's time travel via speed. If you have real evidence, I'd love to hear it. Goku explicitly has this limited form of time travel, and it's still time travel even if your belief that it's speed is correct. He didn't lose it or anything.

I'm getting so tired of this. So I'm taking a break from this thread.
 
ByAsura said:
Because you're assuming that it's time travel via speed. If you have real evidence, I'd love to hear it. Goku explicitly has this limited form of time travel, and it's still time travel even if your belief that it's speed is correct. He didn't lose it or anything.
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You literally said he did it through raw speed earlier in the thread. Don't change the goalpost here. He never shows this "limited time travel" again. Either way, if he has time travel via hax, that means everyone else that keeps up with him has time travel via hax.

I've given my reasonings, and your only refutes recently have been "no.", which isn't a refute at all. All the evidence you've provided has pointed to Immeasurable. Unless you want to give everyone that keeps up with Goku time travel via hax, then it HAS to be immeasurable.
 
The scene with King Kai suggests that Goku used Precognition to counter his Time-Skip after using Kaio-ken x10.

The recap of Episode 39 states that Goku previously countered Time-Skip through Analytical Prediction, but failed to do so after Hit used Pure Progress because the timeframe of his Time-Skip increased. Hit lengthening his Time-Skip in order to bypass Goku's precognitive abilities is further reiterated in Episode 40, with Hit stating that he was able to dodge Blue Kaio-ken x10 Goku's Kamehameha by extending the timeframe of his Time-Skip.

It's very clear that the only reason Goku is able to counter Time-Skip and through Analytical Prediction/Precognition. Every time Goku adapts to Hit's attacks and movements, he begins to counter them by predicting his strikes and preemptively countering, and when Hit realizes this, he uses Pure Progress to increase the duration of Time-Skip. In response to Hit increasing his Time-Skip to 0.5 seconds, Goku stacked Kaio-ken x10 on top of Super Saiyan Blue, thus increasing his speed and allowing him to counter Time-Skip's increasing duration through a further span of precognition, King Kai noting it was a few seconds ahead. Then, Hit lengthens his Time-Skip once more, which allows him to completely neg Goku through Time-Skip, with Goku now incapable of keeping up.
 
@Axx I said I was taking a break, but I've decided to do it after this comment because this is the exact same logic that I addressed.

Yes, and I've said 1,000 times that I was wrong because I was under the assumption that it was just raw speed and not time travel. Stop reusing this point that I already conceded to earlier. He fights and beats Hit again, doesn't he? Plus, the last time he did it, Goku got Delayed Onset Ki Disorder, which King Kai believed would prevent him from becoming stronger. No they don't, only Hit and Goku.

I have given refutations. It's not my fault that you're ignoring them.
ByAsura said:
It would if I were still using that line of reasoning (or even actually made that line of reasoning, because I never said Goku was going to the future through sheer speed, but whatever) for Kaioken SSB, but someone showed that Goku was countering through time travel and I conceded to that point.
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Edit: @Null Ok, so it's not even time travel then.
 
Well, that kinda gets negged by the whole "Goku can move and fight in time skip" thing. It wouldn't matter that he can predict what Hit is going to do if Hit hits him during Time-Skip, which is something he does. If he was stopped in time, then Goku wouldn't be able to do anything anyway. He'd just know he's about to get his shit pushed in.

ByAsura said:
@Axx I said I was taking a break, but I've decided to do it later because this is the exact same logic that I addressed.

Yes, and I've said 1,000 times that I was wrong because it was under the assumption that it was just raw speed and not time travel. Stop reusing this point that I already conceded to earlier. He fights and beats Hit, doesn't he? Plus, the last time he did it, Goku got Delayed Onset Ki Disorder, which King Kai believed would prevent him from becoming stronger. No they don't, only Hit and Goku.

I have given refutations. It's not my fault that you're ignoring them.
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Your refutations have been the extent of "prove it" when your own arguments proved what I said.

Also, you still haven't responded to the point about either everyone has time-travel via hax or immeasurable speed. Those are the only options left here. If Goku has time-travel via hax which he somehow got from powering up with Kaioken, that would additionally mean that you just need to get to a certain strength to be able to... use time hax. Kaioken is nothing but a stat boost, after all. Your "refutations" have proved nothing.
 
@Axx You just ignored the context of what I said, again. But whatever, Null already disproved that Goku was even time travelling in the first place.

You didn't prove anything to begin with.

Anyway, I'm finally going. I just saw this comment.
 
Note 6 on the Speed page states Time Travel via speed should only qualify for Immeasurable speed if it’s consistent with the verse’s showings.

The Tournament of Power Arc completely contradicts Immeasurable speed. If they were that fast, the the tournament’s time limit wouldn’t have been an issue. Whis explicitly takes finite time to travel across the universe.
 
So, this feat should be ignored, then? If it's not consistent, and it isn't a resistance to anything, then it shouldn't be used at all.

ByAsura said:
@Axx You just ignored the context of what I said, again. But whatever, Null already disproved that Goku was even time travelling in the first place.

You didn't prove anything to begin with.
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I addressed what Null said.

You proved it wasn't a resistance to anything. That proves one of 2 things: everyone has limited time travel since Goku can apparently get it with a physical stat amp, or Immeasurable speed. I didn't need to prove anything else from there.
 
Axxtentacle said:
So, this feat should be ignored, then? If it's not consistent, and it isn't a resistance to anything, then it shouldn't be used at all.


I addressed what Null said.

You proved it wasn't a resistance to anything. That proves one of 2 things: everyone has limited time travel since Goku can apparently get it with a physical stat amp, or Immeasurable speed. I didn't need to prove anything else from there.
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Take the latter, and assume it was an outlier

Done
 
I find it ridiculous that we're trying to force a speed tier that'd be an outlier anyway. I'm with Null with this just being Precognition/Analytical Prediction.
 
Yeah, but I already pointed out why Precog wouldn't work if Hit and Goku can attack during it. You can take it as an outlier if you want.
 
So are we just removing the resistance itself and not replacing it with anything?
 
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