Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

[ExcelsisBerny]

Ngl Nova, you should actually wait for staff members and stop replying to stuff that doesn't address your points.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ngl Nova, you should actually wait for staff members and stop replying to stuff that doesn't address your points.

Ye Ima js do it ur way ngl. Thanks Bern

 

[Vietthai96]

Concept Type 1 is Low 1-A when it is the whatness, defines and encompasses all things, and is irreducible. But anyway, it isn't important for this CRT, unless someone want to claim Low 1-A Honkai

Edit: Anyway, yeah, like what @ExcelsisBerny said, this is 5 pages long already; let's not devolve the thread any further.

If you guys want, both of you @Super_Nova and @Voidnether could summarize your arguments

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Concept Type 1 is Low 1-A when it is the whatness, defines and encompasses all things, and is irreducible. But anyway, it isn't important for this CRT, unless someone want to claim Low 1-A Honkai

Erudition
if this only applies to our queen kiana then sure
Anyway, we really need staff here
we went from discussing hoyo cm to standards to hoyo cm to standards again

 

[Voidnether]

Concept Type 1 is Low 1-A when it is the whatness, defines and encompasses all things, and is irreducible. But anyway, it isn't important for this CRT, unless someone want to claim Low 1-A Honkai

Edit: Anyway, yeah, like what @ExcelsisBerny said, this is 5 pages long already; let's not devolve the thread any further.

If you guys want, both of you @Super_Nova and @Voidnether could summarize your arguments

Yeah, I don't know why he's even pushing for the Concept Type 1 here to be that way tbh.

I'm sure there are some lengthy responses that I've done, I'll link them below.

Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

Faulty Proof: This will actually be rather short (I think), because neither this, nor this actually prove CM1 for Aeons. Now, ignoring the egregious (and likely intentional) word salad that you’ll see above, there is actually no proof that Paths are the what-it-is-to-be of any specific notion...

vsbattles.com

Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

Agree with OP

vsbattles.com

Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

I agree with that doesn't mean i disagree at other stuff. If the abstract, concept govern things under the area of its influence and is independent from them, it is still CM1 The whole thing with CM1 is that the notions exist for the universal. Simply governing some category or genera of things...

vsbattles.com

Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

I agree with that doesn't mean i disagree at other stuff. If the abstract, concept govern things under the area of its influence and is independent from them, it is still CM1 The whole thing with CM1 is that the notions exist for the universal. Simply governing some category or genera of things...

vsbattles.com

Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

Bro what 😭

vsbattles.com

This is so funny. No wonder the verse is in the state it is

Dude, you're the one doing all this because you refused that Welt beats Zephyro. This CRT was made out of spite, your reply here also proves it other than the entire CRT itself. Also how is the whole verse wanked when we're like one of the best verse to exist on this wiki with an actual good profile and so on. Compare Klein Moretti or any LOTM profiles to HI3/HSR, you'd see our powers and abilities has actual scans, references and so on pertaining to them especially HI3 unlike Klein and the rest of LOTM that's outdated. If you want me to help, I can though just saying

 

[Vietthai96]

Dude, you're the one doing all this because you refused that Welt beats Zephyro. This CRT was made out of spite, your reply here also proves it other than the entire CRT itself.

dude, let's stop this. this isn't solving anything, out of spite or not; if the arguments and evidence are legit, they will be evaluated nonetheless

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Dude, you're the one doing all this because you refused that Welt beats Zephyro. This CRT was made out of spite, your reply here also proves it other than the entire CRT itself.

Disagreeing with something you consider wrong and trying to change it isn’t acting “out of spite.”

If that were the case, we’d have to report every single user on the wiki for the same reason.

Stop trying to look for ulterior motives behind the revision.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Genshin crts should be your example of why arguing only whats presented in OP must be done
those mf make a simple upgrade/downgrade and it has 8 pages on average
same here literally stop bringing stuff outside this thread just focus on whats here ffs

 

[Verezen]

Faulty Proof:

This will actually be rather short (I think), because neither this, nor this actually prove CM1 for Aeons.

Now, ignoring the egregious (and likely intentional) word salad that you’ll see above, there is actually no proof that Paths are the what-it-is-to-be of any specific notion in the verse.

Not only did Knowledge exist before Nous and the Erudition did, but so did every other single concept in the HSR verse. And nor do the particulars of these concepts vanish or are even affected when these concepts themselves are. As in, Aeons and Paths can literally be destroyed and killed and what they represent stays the exact same because at the end of the day, they merely represent certain philosophical notions.

That’s literally all they are: beings (who might or might not be conceptual) that simply represent or embody certain philosophical ideals. They and their Paths are neither the actual universals nor are they even the source of the concept itself. Like, this is literally told to you in the scans of the very blogs I linked.

And even them being derived from Imaginary energy itself doesn’t help this at all, because when you look at the proof they have like this one:

The scan itself doesn’t even prove this point because it’s literally saying that a certain concept is imaginary, not that Imaginary itself is a concept.

Also, look at this for a second. It doesn’t even read like an ontological claim. And even if it were one, how would it even prove CM1 in any comprehensive sense?

I mean “seldom the other way around” is literally an anti-feat in the first place and in general why would these people even wonder if notions can affect the universals that ground them because the way they speak about it in the second scan sounds to me like this is not something obviously impossible. I won’t get too deep into this since it’s mainly a HI3 problem and that’s not a game I play, so I’ll leave it to someone else who wants to deal with that slop.

But apparently what those scans are about is of a character who exists as an abstract/conceptual entity, and so… how is this Type 1? Huh? Maybe I’m missing something since I haven’t played the game and brushed it over the word salad that is the VSBW Hoyo blogs, but they can’t actually be using statements for some random woman as proof for CM1? Right? A Type 1 concept can’t just be walking in space as some dude, can it?

In any case, I still think that CM3 should be fine as they’re still conceptual in some sense but simply being the source of some energy isn’t Type 1. Like at all.

Irontomb:

(Edit: this part isn’t as problematic since I slightly conflated 1-A standards for Type 1’s when I first wrote this but it still addresses some info that needs to be altered so I’ll keep it.)

Another point brought up in the reasoning is that only Aeons can kill other Aeons (and therefore somehow prove detachment from the universal’s particulars) but this is just completely wrong as of the recent 3.6 update:

Irontomb, an Emanator of Destruction, can implicitly kill Nous the Erudition.

Not much to say about this aside from the fact that it completely disproves any notions of inherent immutability.

Conclusions:

All Aeons go from CM1 to CM3, and anyone who got CM1 for a similar reasoning does so, as well.

Not going to make a specific claim on HI3 right now since I have yet to play that game (and never will) but the proof is just as lacking there as it is for Aeons. Butttt I’ll leave that to someone else if they have the patience to do so.

Also a pet peave I just have to lay out but the state of the verse is horrid. Too many words that obfuscate the truth of literally anything there and I won’t be surprised if there’s even more wank that I just didn’t bother digging through. Whatever, just gimme some votes.

Mod Votes:

Agree with the downgrade, never made sense tbh cause the concepts existed way before the aeons yet the aeons ARE the concepts
As for concepts existing after their deaths, aeons are usually just subsumed/consumed by another aeon or sealed. They don’t really die (from what I know). An example of this is Ena the order being subsumed by Xipe the harmony. Think of it like seq 0s assimilating more neighboring pathways ig.
Also the paths do exist after the Aeon is dead, the Aeon merely created/set them. (Issue is that concepts still clearly predate the paths so idek why it was ever considered valid).

 

[IReallyLoveRilysse]

@Super_Nova
Maybe you/we should wait until 3.7 is released
We don't know how Irontomb will fight or about his virus... How we will defeat him
Maybe he effects things conceptually... Maybe we have to erase him from existence... Also we have to deal with lygus
There will be some scans for CM in 3.7 patch and it may or may not clear your confusion

 

[Voidnether]

Disagreeing with something you consider wrong and trying to change it isn’t acting “out of spite.”

If that were the case, we’d have to report every single user on the wiki for the same reason.

Stop trying to look for ulterior motives behind the revision.

The intention of this CRT was made out of spite, other than that it's not really a spite and an actual one: It's just that the evidence against it is lacking, from my perspective.

 

[Verezen]

After rereading the CM page, Voidnether makes sense to me. I now disagree with OP.

Voidnether doesn’t even know what cm 1 implies bro said intension is just yap

CM 1 independence of all particulars and it has to be the instantiator in the first place. How do you even justify anything when concepts predate paths??? Paths don’t even predate time and space bro (minimal requirement btw).

 

[Voidnether]

Voidnether doesn’t even know what cm 1 implies bro said intension is just yap

CM 1 independence of all particulars and it has to be the instantiator in the first place. How do you even justify anything when concepts predate paths??? Paths don’t even predate time and space bro (minimal requirement btw).

Okay, give out one scan from HI3 or HSR that concepts predate Paths. Prove that the concept of time predates Finality, or the concept of knowledge predates Erudition please

 

[Voidnether]

Also since when Path has to predate space-time for it to be considered CM1

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Also since when Path has to predate space-time for it to be considered CM1

Just use nihility lmao, esp device IX which explains the opposite of universe (SoQ) and it predates whole universe (IT was literally born from SoQ)

 

[Verezen]

Okay, give out one scan from HI3 or HSR that concepts predate Paths. Prove that the concept of time predates Finality, or the concept of knowledge predates Erudition please

You’ve alr conceded time predates finality btw, you quite literally said it on the first page of this very crt.
Also Erudition is literally a supercomputer that was created by Zandar (literally a human, who is a genius, and accumulated quite a bit of knowledge )
You are essentially claiming the concept of knowledge did not exist when this human so very clearly had the knowledge to create a supercomputer

 

[Vietthai96]

Just use nihility lmao, esp device IX which explains the opposite of universe (SoQ) and it predates whole universe (IT was literally born from SoQ)

predate the universe isn't matter, it need to predate, or at least independent from the entire reality of the verse, if it is independent from one thing but dependent on a bigger thing then it is not Type 1

 

[PedjaTarzan]

You’ve alr conceded time predates finality btw, you quite literally said it on the first page of this very crt.
Also Erudition is literally a supercomputer that was created by Zandar (literally a human, who is a genius, and accumulated quite a bit of knowledge )
You are essentially claiming the concept of knowledge did not exist when this human so very clearly had the knowledge to create a supercomputer

Erudition existed before Nous long ago, thats why knowledge concepts and all stuff in the universe could be percieved
Nous literally embodied the concept that encompasses all those stuff in the universe
nether alr explained this u can ask him to quotd post

 

[PedjaTarzan]

predate the universe isn't matter, it need to predate, or at least independent from the entire reality of the verse, if it is independent from one thing but dependent on a bigger thing then it is not Type 1

then use img space, it is called origin of universe and encompasses everything within reality and imaginary

 

[Verezen]

Also since when Path has to predate space-time for it to be considered CM1

Literally the minimum requirement bud

Erudition existed before Nous long ago, thats why knowledge concepts and all stuff in the universe could be percieved
Nous literally embodied the concept that encompasses all those stuff in the universe
nether alr explained this u can ask him to quotd post

Aeons are literally stated in the verse to give rise to the paths
Anyway I’m not gonna derail this thread, @SuperNova lowk cooking on his own. No point inflating it with repetition. The defender doesn’t even understand that type 1s have to predate their particulars because they literally give rise to them. If you argued a path is simply an authority or tool you use to manipulate the actual universals its more redeemable perhaps but idt that has much evidence behind it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Concept Type 1 is Low 1-A when it is the whatness, defines and encompasses all things, and is irreducible. But anyway, it isn't important for this CRT, unless someone want to claim Low 1-A Honkai

Edit: Anyway, yeah, like what @ExcelsisBerny said, this is 5 pages long already; let's not devolve the thread any further.

If you guys want, both of you @Super_Nova and @Voidnether could summarize your arguments

I’ll just be writing them cuz I’m kind of tired right now but if you need scans, proof or literally anything about my points, I would be GLAD to give them to you.

My main contentions are:

• There is nothing to indicate that Aeons or Paths ground any particulars or notions of the concepts they represent.
  • The particulars themselves not only can exist before an Aeon or Path is created, but also after they die.
    • For example, you could destroy things before Nanook the Destruction was born.
  • Aeons are merely called “representations” or “embodiments” of a certain philosophy and that’s it.
  • Paths are merely the energy released from an Aeon after they ascend and create it from Imaginary.
    • I have addressed in the OP how Imaginary is not inherently conceptual, rather some concepts can be Imaginary, instead. The current description in the blogs mistakenly words it the former.
  • Multiple Paths can overlap the same concepts, meaning neither of them can individually be the universal.
• Irontomb can destroy the Erudition through its particulars.
  • This is done by attacking intelligent life and civilizations across the universe, thereby putting the Erudition into disarray, and by “tracing back the Path Energy to Nous”.
    • Lygus explains that Erudition refers to the ability of intelligent life to phenomenally observe various concepts in the universe.
      • The opposition mistakenly asserts these “concepts” are universals when they are merely referring to categories of objects that are privy to phenomenal observation.
• There is no proof any universal exists, even outside of Aeons. As far as the verse is concerned, no concept is said to ground anything in the universe.
  • Though unrelated to HSR, the opposition brings up the Authority of Finality from HI3. The argument is that it governs all of time, whilst being unaffected by it.
    • Yet, if you would check the scans they have provided. You’d realize that this is merely a product of Time Manipulation. As in, they are unaffected because they control Time.
      • In fact, one the scans say that Project Sigma attempts to contain it through Time. Though, I am unaware of what this is referring to since I haven’t played the game. But it still sounds rather suspicious.
    • Additionally, the opposition themselves admitted that Time predated Finality, so it by definition cannot ground Time. This just adds to my belief that all it is, is merely Time Manipulation and that’s that.
      • So after doing some research (that is, reading the wiki), it ends up that Finality is just something the Cocoon creates at the end of a temporal cycle to reset it. That’s why there are “previous Herrschers of Finality”. I don’t believe I have to explain why this isn’t CM1 lol.
  • They also brought up a scan about saying how some realms have a different concept of Time.
    • Problem is that the opposition completely fails to elaborate on what this means. It can either be that there exists an actual abstracta that is different across realms, or it could be in a more nominal sense where it’s just saying that the physical constant of Time works differently in separate worlds. The “concepts” here remain completely unqualified and considering the opposition has not brought forth any context on them likely means that it is just a 1-off nominal mention.
      • To add proof on the latter interpretation: we already have an example of different “time” with Imaginary Space. And all that is, is that time functions like a spatial dimension. There’s nothing CM here.
        • Also mind you, this same place where you can move in time like a spatial dimension is the same place where the supposed “CM1” is located at.
• The conceptual human problem.
  • The original blog tries to posit the case of an abstract/conceptual human as proof for CM1.
    • Damming, specifically, is one scan that says that “Ideas can shape Reality, but seldom it is the opposite.” This is itself, an anti-feat.
• So, what is the proof for CM1?
  • Universal range. That’s literally all there is.
• Generally, what even is “Imaginary”?
  • It is merely the primary substance that makes up the Imaginary Tree a.k.a the cosmos.
    • “Before the theory of Imaginary Tree was put forward, the universe had been addressed as "a void and indiscernible object" because of its undetectable nature. After the theory was developed, people would visualize its principle using imagination: The untamed imaginary energy surges endlessly through space-time vasculature, and forms at its tips "star clusters" that humans can understand — in other words, countless worlds. The worlds are separated from each other just as leaves are separated by air, between which are unknown imaginary domains that are nigh impossible to traverse.”
  • An Aeon, when ascending, simply gains the ability to control this Imaginary Energy in respect to their Pathway/Philosophy.

These are basically the main contentions. There might be a few other stuff I haven’t mentioned here but I believe that they are so irrelevant to the topic that they need no addressing. But if you do need me to address them or to address anything the opposition brings up, I’d be more than glad to do so.

 

[Voidnether]

You’ve alr conceded time predates finality btw, you quite literally said it on the first page of this very crt.
Also Erudition is literally a supercomputer that was created by Zandar (literally a human, who is a genius, and accumulated quite a bit of knowledge )
You are essentially claiming the concept of knowledge did not exist when this human so very clearly had the knowledge to create a supercomputer

Because when was knowledge a concept when Zandar created Nous? Is there any scans? If so, please show me

Ok, but was there actual proof time predates Finality other what I said? Like you know, scans and all that..

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Literally the minimum requirement bud

Aeons are literally stated in the verse to give rise to the paths

And Zandar (who literally made a aeon) said that both ruberts could have taken a throne of destruction (ascend into aeonhood) but were prevented
so this isnt 1:1 case.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also since when Path has to predate space-time for it to be considered CM1

They must predate the particulars they ground. I’ve explained the reasoning a hundreds times by now.

Ok, but was there actual proof time predates Finality other what I said? Like you know, scans and all that..

This is extremely disingenuous btw. Everyone here can tell that you said something that goes against your point and now you’re trying to backtrack.

Because when was knowledge a concept when Zandar created Nous? Is there any scans? If so, please show me

The concept isn’t relevant, the particulars are. Unless you want to claim that nothing could be destroyed before Nanook was born. As in, there is not a single instance of “destruction” or anything of the sort happening in the universe before he was born.

 

[Vietthai96]

oke wth? I have some issues: Time predates Finality, so what the hell is Finality?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

oke wth? I have some issues: Time predates Finality, so what the hell is Finality?

There is no actual proof of this.
They are just using Voidnether own words against him instead of using actual scan and evidence that their CRT lacks a lot.

---

Stop trying to win the argument and postulate your argument with evidence backing it up.

doesn't matter if the opposition admits a flaw, but there is no actual proof and evidence of that flaw, it is unusable. This isn't a court law

 

[Verezen]

And Zandar (who literally made a aeon) said that both ruberts could have taken a throne of destruction (ascend into aeonhood) but were prevented
so this isnt 1:1 case.

Doesn’t prove the path existed before hand
Just shows the potential for it existed (which is irrelevant too considering its hindsight

 

[SuperNova55555]

There is no actual proof of this.
They are just using Voidnether own words against him instead of using actual scan and evidence that their CRT lacks a lot.

Stop trying to win the argument and postulate your argument with evidence backing it up.

doesn't matter if the opposition admits a flaw, but there is no actual proof and evidence of that flaw, it is unusable. This isn't a court law

What’s Finality then? Like cash out the lore. You realize you can’t just scale a verse by intentionally hiding information, right?

What I’m reading on the wiki is that it is just Kiana’s final form that controls time and all the other herrscher stuff. If this is what it is, I don’t have to explain that it doesn’t function as CM1, right?

 

[Voidnether]

They must predate the particulars they ground. I’ve explained the reasoning a hundreds times by now.


This is extremely disingenuous btw. Everyone here can tell that you said something that goes against your point and now you’re trying to backtrack.


The concept isn’t relevant, the particulars are. Unless you want to claim that nothing could be destroyed before Nanook was born. As in, there is not a single instance of “destruction” or anything of the sort happening in the universe before he was born.

Predate ≠ independent

oke wth? I have some issues: Time predates Finality, so what the hell is Finality?

Well, to be honest actually. Finality is the source of all Honkai-related phenomena in the world so we could equate Honkai's characteristics to Finality technically. But that's not the main argument here, the main argument about Finality is that the Cocoon of Finality itself could catalyze the Herrscher of Finality using Imaginary Energy. Herrschers are stated to be "pure concepts" that is derived from the imaginary concept. There's not really a single scan in Honkai saying that time predates Finality itself, I think everyone who's knowledgeable about Honkai understands this.

Through the Imaginary, one can add Imaginary properties to objects to make them Imaginary by abstracting it, or Kiana destroying Imaginary itself to destroy the Imaginary authority and an Imaginary Space. Honkai Energy is basically Imaginary internal energy, the powersource of the Cocoon of Finality is technically Imaginary Energy anyway.

All Herrschers, simply put are just projections of Finality. Which means, the Herrschers that are "pure concepts" are just well: Projections for Finality to manifest in the first place.

So, the full context is like: Herrschers are imaginary concepts, they're born through Imaginary Energy as abstract concepts that are independent from their own. This is why the Herrscher of Finality, who has authority over time is unaffected by time. Because it was explained that Herrschers are independent from their own authority, to be more precise. This is like shown with how Divine Keys cannot harness the same power as Herrscher, but Herrscher are able to do that with their own respective Divine Keys.

So, Herrscher's ability to manipulate higher-dimensional realm, it also can be used to manipulate time hence the entire manipulating time ≠ manipulating Finality stuff. Time itself is a primordial abstract concept that acts as a sequence and causality basically. Time also has its own concepts and laws, which is something that's outside of the universe (Yes, world here is universe by the way but I don't think it matters much for concept manip).

Now, Paths are just congregations of Imaginary Energy. It'd be more precise if Path is CM1 and it's respective Aeon because it's just congregations of Imaginary Energy tbh.

That's the entire explanation.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

What’s Finality then? Like cash out the lore. You realize you can’t just scale a verse by intentionally hiding information, right?

As presented in the pages and such?

• In fact, one the scans say that Project Sigma attempts to contain it through Time. Though, I am unaware of what this is referring to since I haven’t played the game. But it still sounds rather suspicious.

This is about making finality interdependent on Project Stigma. Therefore, they can force it. You can read more here

They must predate the particulars they ground. I’ve explained the reasoning a hundreds times by now.

They don't necessarily.
When an entity or source of energy can create Type 1 concepts whenever they please, this requirement falls flat and is not a must when proving Type 1 concepts.
That's why having the Type 1 concept includes. Manipulating it, creating it, and destroying it.
We already have proof that imaginary elements exist as a metaphysical aggregation of spirit and originate from the Imaginary tree that created the universe.

So it already exists in the form of an imaginary in the imaginary space. But only becomes relevant and usable as a force when an intelligence being (Aeons) takes over it and now has free control over it, but at the same time is bound by it.

When dealing with fiction, these scenarios are common, so disqualifying something from being a type 1 concept because it started to exist in the middle of an occurring time is rather an incorrect, strict assumption to have. because one can literally play around with ontological vagueness, where a metaphysical concept may not be clearly defined until someone decides so.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I won’t make a reply now, since I really don’t want to derail this thread any longer. But if any mod wants me to, I am more than happy to dismantle the above responses.

As presented in the pages and such?

No the lore. The page doesn’t tell you anything aside from what it can control. I want to know how Kiana achieved it. How was it created. Etc. etc.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Not gonna reply to everything so I'll just choose these few to.

Predate ≠ independent

Well, to be honest actually. Finality is the source of all Honkai-related phenomena in the world

Doesn't say that at all.

So, Herrscher's ability to manipulate higher-dimensional realm, it also can be used to manipulate time hence the entire manipulating time ≠ manipulating Finality stuff. Time itself is a primordial abstract concept that acts as a sequence and causality basically. Time also has its own concepts and laws, which is something that's outside of the universe (Yes, world here is universe by the way but I don't think it matters much for concept manip).

This doesn't seem to be referring time in a "Universal" sense but just time as being time, in a vague or nebulous sense, and everything having their own different flow of time.

I think one problem is seeing the word "concept" and immediately thinking it's referring to whatever qualifies for conceptual manipulation as well because for concept of time stuff it seems a lot more nominally used.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I think one problem is seeing the word "concept" and immediately thinking it's referring to whatever qualifies for conceptual manipulation as well because for concept of time stuff it seems a lot more nominally used.

Yesssss. This is literally what I’ve been saying the entire thread. Thanks goat

 

[Voidnether]

Not gonna reply to everything so I'll just choose these few to.

Doesn't say that at all.


This doesn't seem to be referring time in a "Universal" sense but just time as being time, in a vague or nebulous sense, and everything having their own different flow of time.

I think one problem is seeing the word "concept" and immediately thinking it's referring to whatever qualifies for conceptual manipulation as well because for concept of time stuff it seems a lot more nominally used.

Finality = Honkai.

I already proved that Finality is able to create Herrschers that are pure concepts, in turn these Herrschers are independent from what they govern firsthand. The concepts here are not just limited to time, everyone knows that.

The manipulation part lies in Sirin adding Imaginary properties to objects to make them Imaginary by abstracting it, or Kiana destroying Imaginary itself to destroy the Imaginary authority and an Imaginary Space.

That is enough I suppose.

I won’t make a reply now, since I really don’t want to derail this thread any longer. But if any mod wants me to, I am more than happy to dismantle the above responses.


No the lore. The page doesn’t tell you anything aside from what it can control. I want to know how Kiana achieved it. How was it created. Etc. etc.

Maybe, just play the game and then you'll understand? If the interpretation there is contradictory to the game, then you can bring it up with actual scans backing it!

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Honestly, we should just follow All-Fiction Battle regarding CM where they separate Platonic Form from the Independent Concept as a separate type, anyway this will be another CRT for another time.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Honestly, we should just follow All-Fiction Battle regarding CM where they separate Platonic Form from the Independent Concept as a separate type, anyway this will be another CRT for another time.

Type 1 concepts as they are shouldnt really have any real difference from type 2 to make them different to interact with? So really just merge them and replace type 1 with something more transcendent

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

This is arguably the only worthwhile contention I’ve seen so far in this thread, in that it attempts to posit omni-temporality for Paths.

Well thank you, I'm rather new to this lol.

This specific part relating to path-splitting refers to the concept of narrow and broad Paths wherein certain Paths represents, well, “broader” concepts. This is, as we know, why Ena was absorbed by Xipe as Harmony subsumed the Order.

Just the opposite happened for Tazzyronth where it split the Path and took a narrower concept from the Permanence.

There are, well, still a couple of problems with this:

1. Multiple Paths inhibit multiple concepts. That is, both Order and Harmony represented the same concepts. (I’ll use the wiki rn but anyone can go and check the game and it’ll tell you the same thing because they are just copy-pastes of it). So which Path is the universal here? That’s a problem since it can’t be both, but it sure as hell isn’t a problem if all an Aeon and a Path do is merely represent the concepts, which is what I’ve been vying for the entire thread and what the scans themselves tell you.

Myself while writing the initial post was reasoning that to make sense the Paths would have to represent initial underlying concepts. For example 'Destruction' representing the concept of Entropy and that changes to a Path would change the underlying concept(s).

Like you pointed out, two Paths can't both be Universals, I'm not sure EXACTLY why they can't both be universals either. To me it makes sense that say, Harmony and Order having one underlying path would mean both Path's changes would effect the underlying concept. This could be possible through the Solitary Waves theory with Paths pulling against each other. Paths might not be the universal in this theory, but the Paths could hold some sway over the universal.
Either way, I'll trust in good faith given you're far more experienced and seem to know a lot more about CM1 than me, especially since this is just an idea / theory.

2. Paths are created by Aeons when they ascend by subsuming Imaginary Energy. They specifically do not exist until then. The only other way, as we’ve seen is to utilize Paths that have been previously created. But for beings like Aha, they ascended through themselves and created the Path.

Yeah true.

And also, something you’ve noticed and what I’ve been saying is that Paths are merely an energy. An esoteric one, sure, but it’s just an energy. That’s why there’s no problem with it existing after an Aeon dies. Also, is this “energy” CM1? Wouldn’t be a problem if it were IM2 or even CM3, but CM1 is nonsensical.

And I’m not sure if you’re saying that following a Path is equivalent to “participating” in it, but if you are, I’ll just tell you right now that it absolutely is not. That’s not even what participation would be. They’re just taking energy from a different source. (Participating in the Universal of Fire for instance isn’t something as stupid as using some energy to create fireballs. I reallyyyy don’t think I need to explain this.) And to be honest, can I know where it says that Permanence pathstriders changed Paths? Not that it’s validity or falsity changes anything to my contention, but I am interested.

Specifically I believe they're simply just Imaginary Energy - Or they could be a specific kind of energy like Honkai energy. Much like the way the Cocoon of Finality was able to latch onto the Imaginary Tree and convert Imaginary Energy into Honkai energy, perhaps Paths have different similar energies, also yeah, looking upon this for a second time, that definitely isn't participation lol.
Also I don't have evidence to this, it just seems like a natural implication of the path being split.

I already explained this to Voidnether. Lygus is merely talking about concepts as an indicator of categories that are subject to phenomenal experience. That’s what a “book read by noone” means. Matter and space exists, but there’ll be noone to perceive them. It doesn’t make any claim about the ontology of concepts.

Fair enough, it is a valid interpretation. You can't argue a concept doesn't exist merely because it's not perceived either, that'd be stupid.

God, this is a lot of fluff. Though, I believe I can give a concise and short response to it.

Frankly, I already had edited the OP to say that Irontomb isn’t much of a problem, but I think this brought to my attention an even bigger anti-feat:

Why is Irontomb destroying the Erudition by attacking things that supposedly participate in it? What?

I believe that the Lord Ravager's purpose is to attack the Path controlled by the Aeon. Not the Aeon itself. (This is also present in the Lord Ravagers section of the Databank.) This is why Irontomb is making said equations to disrupt the Path itself. Everything following Erudition is its target, not just the Aeon Nous. Nous is merely just Lygus' target.

You know that what he’s doing here is attacking civilizations and intelligent life—things that should be participating in Erudition—to destroy Erudition, right?

This is what Lygus means here in the third scan. He’s literally saying that Erudition is a phenomena contingent on intelligent Consciousness and civilizations. THIS is why Irontomb destroys the supposed “particulars” of Erudition to destroy Erudition. Because it is not even a universal to begin with. It even sounds a bit nominal to say the least, but I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt and say CM3.

I DO believe that to be what Lygus is saying, but I don't believe you've articulated this the best. I believe Lygus is talking about the study and understanding of these concepts like time, space and matter is what makes up the concept of Erudition.
Without the understanding (or Erudition) of the concepts of time, space or matter they wouldn't be classed as concepts in human eyes. Things 'would merely be a chaotic book, written by chance, unread by anyone' - Unread specifically referring to observation and, most importantly, comprehension of a concept.

The concepts would still exist, but without their understanding - without Erudition / its underlying concepts, the universe could not be understood. Correct me if I'm wrong.

However the idea that Irontomb is attacking worlds to damage the Path of Erudition is entirely incorrect.
Irontomb is not attacking these worlds. Lygus is doing it by sending out the equation, specifically to advanced worlds, to test its effectiveness against Erudition. ('To verify the experiment results, a copy of Phase One Amphoreus was deployed in the Lacteris Nebula. After approximately 2,811 system hours, surrounding civilizations had fully suppressed and erased the equation. 97% of Lacteris fell into systemic collapse. Equation still shows inefficiencies.' - From As I've Written, Experiment Process Inorganic, Footnotes.)

This points to Irontomb's equation targeting and destroying things that possess the Path of Erudition within the area the equation is deployed, of course by using the Path of Destruction.
This is why Irontomb's description in the databank is written the way it is. 'Technology turns into viruses', 'everything deemed "advanced" becomes a cold grave', 'It only appears in highly developed worlds'.
The destruction of the particulars doesn't damage Nous, or the path itself. It does serve as proof for Lygus. It shows how effective / ineffective Irontomb will be against Nous, THIS is why the equation is destroying particulars of Erudition, it's proof of concept for Lygus, therefore the inference that Irontomb destroys particulars of Erudition to destroy the Path (as it isn't a universal) doesn't hold up.

Let’s say that, hypothetically, we accept these absurd notions of CM1. Does this mean every Pathstrider has CM1? Even further than that, if Path energy is something everything participates in, does this give HSR atoms CM1 as well? Lol.

Honestly, I'm not sure. You did say above 'if you’re saying that following a Path is equivalent to “participating” in it, but if you are, I’ll just tell you right now that it absolutely is not.' so why would they have CM1? They're not part of the Universal, even if they are drawing power from the Path, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Aight. I believe everyone has said what they wanted to say so let’s just wait for mods. Going on for another 10 pages is completely meaningless, and if there is a need to respond to anything in particular to sway their judgement, it can always be done then.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Compare Klein Moretti or any LOTM profiles to HI3/HSR, you'd see our powers and abilities has actual scans, references and so on pertaining to them especially HI3 unlike Klein and the rest of LOTM that's outdated. If you want me to help, I can though just saying

SuperNova is too busy terrorizing LOTM supporters by making the most random nitpicky downgrade CRTs or arguments every week.

(It’s eternal torment )

 

[SuperNova55555]

SuperNova is too busy terrorizing LOTM supporters by making the most random nitpicky downgrade CRTs or arguments every week.

(It’s eternal torment )

At least I make the profiles lol. Let’s not act like this verse actually has any future without me lelelel