Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

[Vietthai96]

I cannot find op rebuttal for project stigma being type 1 concept. The scans posted on op in the first floor of thread is linking to a scan referring to stigmas being imaginary. But there is a scan on Hoyoverse page that says the Imaginary Tree is a higher-dimensional concept. If you want downgrade Aeons then you have to downgrade imaginary but there is a scan that says imaginary is a higher-dimensional concept and governs everything in hoyoverse cosmology which is type 1. Also the project stigma part where stigmas being a fundamental unit of reality, which you have not addressed.

The correct words is Imaginary Tree is a higher-dimensional concept; however, this doesn't mean a literal metaphysical concept that governs reality, but because it namedrops the word "concept," simply speaking, the tree and the sea are higher-dimensional models that are conceptualized by Otto for easier reference of how the verse cosmology works. In other words, it is a mental concept that is a product of the mind, not an abstract concept that defines something in existence. it is like how artist and game devs making something called concept art; it doesn't mean it is literal abstract concept

 

[Voidnether]

The correct words is Imaginary Tree is a higher-dimensional concept; however, this doesn't mean a literal metaphysical concept that governs reality, but because it namedrops the word "concept," simply speaking, the tree and the sea are higher-dimensional models that are conceptualized by Otto for easier reference of how the verse cosmology works. In other words, it is a mental concept that is a product of the mind, not an abstract concept that defines something in existence. it is like how artist and game devs making something called concept art; it doesn't mean it is literal abstract concept

Technically you can't be a metaphysical concept that governs reality, when you're the reality itself here to be honest so I wouldn't really know why someone even considered a cosmological structure to be a concept in the first place. Either way the "Imaginary" in there is CM1 though so yeah we have that but anyway (when someone talks about Imaginary, they're not talking about the Imaginary Tree itself since it's the reality, the structure)

There's like a distinction between Imaginary as a concept that's labeled as type 1, and the Imaginary Tree in which it's the said reality here, the cosmological structure

However though, the terminology reality here varies as there are two: Sea of Quanta and Imaginary Tree being refered as reality, so when Otto said he transcended reality to become part of IT, that's the Sea of Quanta just like CoF who's independent from the 11 dimensions of reality (SoQ) and then the distinction made in HSR where Nihility is the opposite of reality or existence (IT)

 

[Unqver]

The correct words is Imaginary Tree is a higher-dimensional concept; however, this doesn't mean a literal metaphysical concept that governs reality, but because it namedrops the word "concept," simply speaking, the tree and the sea are higher-dimensional models that are conceptualized by Otto for easier reference of how the verse cosmology works. In other words, it is a mental concept that is a product of the mind, not an abstract concept that defines something in existence. it is like how artist and game devs making something called concept art; it doesn't mean it is literal abstract concept

Imaginary tree has been said to be a concept many times that does not have space time and is the origin of all things. I do not see what else do you want. Aeons and honkai can all perceive the Imaginary tree as something that exists.

 

[Unqver]

Technically you can't be a metaphysical concept that governs reality, when you're the reality itself here to be honest so I wouldn't really know why someone even considered a cosmological structure to be a concept in the first place. Either way the "Imaginary" in there is CM1 though so yeah we have that but anyway (when someone talks about Imaginary, they're not talking about the Imaginary Tree itself since it's the reality, the structure)

There's like a distinction between Imaginary as a concept that's labeled as type 1, and the Imaginary Tree in which it's the said reality here, the cosmological structure

However though, the terminology reality here varies as there are two: Sea of Quanta and Imaginary Tree being refered as reality, so when Otto said he transcended reality to become part of IT, that's the Sea of Quanta just like CoF who's independent from the 11 dimensions of reality (SoQ) and then the distinction made in HSR where Nihility is the opposite of reality or existence (IT)

Imaginary tree is the conceptual domain and it is the same thing as the Imaginary element

 

[SuperNova55555]

Imaginary tree has been said to be a concept many times that does not have space time and is the origin of all things. I do not see what else do you want. Aeons and honkai can all perceive the Imaginary tree as something that exists.

Just read the data bank vro. The Imaginary Tree is what happens when Imaginary Energy surges within Space-Time vasculature forming star systems and worlds.

The “trunk” is where all the energy is located at and the “branches” are what happens when it seeps out and creates worlds (the leaves).

 

[Unqver]

Just read the data bank vro. The Imaginary Tree is what happens when Imaginary Energy surges within Space-Time vasculature forming star systems and worlds.

The “trunk” is where all the energy is located at and the “branches” are what happens when it seeps out and creates worlds (the leaves).

Imaginary energy is abstract. Imaginary Tree is the conceptual structure made up of Imaginary energy.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Imaginary energy is abstract. Imaginary Tree is the conceptual structure made up of Imaginary energy.

The Imaginary Tree is divided into 2 parts:

Imaginary Space and Real Space.

Imaginary Space is non-physical and naturally the source of Imaginary Energy, whereas Real Space is what happens when the aforementioned energy moves throughout the tree and forms physical constructs. It’s only natural that Imaginary Energy is abstract because it’s the fundamental substance that creates the corporeal things—I never doubted this part.

Basically, the former is abstract space-time whereas the latter is concrete space-time. That’s all; it is not transcendent to it in the way you think, otherwise statements like this wouldn’t exist.

 

[Addipuss]

also another note is its cm1 is not just for low 1a as if that the case many verses lose cm1 god of war still has cm1, final fantasy has both cm1 and cm 3 and even Punishing: Gray Raven has cm1 but ff also is outdatted and geting upgraded while keeping cm1 and dmc is another out datted but had cm1 and now pretty approved for all new updated stuff which include cm 1 just saying just cm1 can apply things still not outer because if low 1a pretty standred for cm 1 well too many verses get out... include new updated dmc and ff though most mods approving most the upgrade for them including cm1 so again go with others and cm1 should stay as has proven for many years to be cm1 were still waiting mods to say otherwise most agree here cm1 should stay

 

[Unqver]

The Imaginary Tree is divided into 2 parts:

Imaginary Space and Real Space.

Imaginary Space is non-physical and naturally the source of Imaginary Energy, whereas Real Space is what happens when the aforementioned energy moves throughout the tree and forms physical constructs. It’s only natural that Imaginary Energy is abstract because it’s the fundamental substance that creates the corporeal things—I never doubted this part.

Basically, the former is abstract space-time whereas the latter is concrete space-time. That’s all; it is not transcendent to it in the way you think, otherwise statements like this wouldn’t exist.

Imaginary space is transcendent. Imaginary tree is everything. It is the origin of everything, meaning it is transcendent. Real space is created from the imaginary tree but real space is not fundamentally part of it. Just like a spit of saliva has no impact to our own dna.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Imaginary space is transcendent. Imaginary tree is everything. It is the origin of everything, meaning it is transcendent. Real space is created from the imaginary tree but real space is not fundamentally part of it. Just like a spit of saliva has no impact to our own dna.

Those scans quite literally say what I already said. Real Space is a derivative of Imaginary Space. But they are part of the same system—the Imaginary Tree. Real Space is just its corporeal part.

The Imaginary Energy still flows through Space-Time, albeit through a more abstract one where time works differently.

 

[Vietthai96]

I seriously busy so i don't want to engage much in this thread to avoid clogging it before i decide to evaluate but

Imaginary tree is the conceptual domain and it is the same thing as the Imaginary element

This "conceptual domain" claim is in fact based on a statement about the tree being higher-dimensional concept which i already explained in my post. The claim simply based on the term concept was namedropped and assume the tree to be a conceptual domain

Imaginary space is transcendent.

Scan: This is the other side of the world

 

[Unqver]

This "conceptual domain" claim is in fact based on a statement about the tree being higher-dimensional concept which i already explained in my post. The claim simply based on the term concept was namedropped and assume the tree to be a conceptual domain

If it is just a thought then how were aeons and herrscher able to perceive it?

Scan: This is the other side of the world

imaginary tree is universe but it doesn't mean it has continuity with spacetime, just like earth is not connected to a moon

 

[SuperNova55555]

If it is just a thought then how were aeons and herrscher able to perceive it?

What does this even mean (how is it related)

imaginary tree is universe but it doesn't mean it has continuity with spacetime, just like earth is not connected to a moon

It quite literally has its own space-time. It just works differently. Your scans also state this btw

Anyhow, whether or not it is within space-time or not genuinely gets it nowhere closer to CM1. Nor does being “conceptual” for that matter. Because at the end of the day, being a “concept” or not means nothing if you don’t qualify what sort of concept it is.

 

[Unqver]

What does this even mean (how is it related)

Mental concepts are only thought. If beings perceive it then it is not mental concept.

It quite literally has its own space-time. It just works differently. Your scans also state this btw

Anyhow, whether or not it is within space-time or not genuinely gets it nowhere closer to CM1. Nor does being “conceptual” for that matter. Because at the end of the day, being a “concept” or not means nothing if you don’t qualify what sort of concept it is.

Time is said to have a different meaning in imaginary space, doesn't mean it is bounded within frame of space and time. Imaginary space is also said to be devoid of material existence such as space and time. If something was said to be concept then it governs reality, also independent and unaffected by reality, then it is type 1. The Imaginary tree and imaginary elemenet is exactly this.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Mental concepts are only thought. If beings perceive it then it is not mental concept.

Well I’m not vying for Type 4 so it’s sort of irrelevant. Also, this isn’t what Vietthai is implying. Rather, the Imaginary Tree exists as it’s own construct, but we can have ideas of it and conceptions of it (thoughts in our mind)—not that the Tree itself is a mental concept.

Time is said to have a different meaning in imaginary space, doesn't mean it is bounded within frame of space and time.

Its because time works like a spatial dimension lel.

Imaginary space is also said to be devoid of material existence such as space and time.

Of course. The thing that precedes and forms physical things can’t be physical itself.

But also, space and time aren’t generally assumed to be physical in the same manner as matter, so some exotic forms of Space-Time existing within Imaginary Space leaves no problems here.

If something was said to be concept then it governs reality, also independent and unaffected by reality, then it is type 1.

I’ve already laid out my issues with how reductive this definition is, because it doesn’t accurately reflect what a universal is (linking it for the 10 billionth time). Anyhow, being unaffected isn’t a necessity otherwise it’d be Low 1-A.

The Imaginary tree and imaginary elemenet is exactly this.

Yea I don’t think so, buddy.

 

[Vietthai96]

Mental concepts are only thought. If beings perceive it then it is not mental concept.

it is like how artist and game devs making something called concept art; it doesn't mean it is literal abstract concept

 

[Voidnether]

also another note is its cm1 is not just for low 1a as if that the case many verses lose cm1 god of war still has cm1, final fantasy has both cm1 and cm 3 and even Punishing: Gray Raven has cm1 but ff also is outdatted and geting upgraded while keeping cm1 and dmc is another out datted but had cm1 and now pretty approved for all new updated stuff which include cm 1 just saying just cm1 can apply things still not outer because if low 1a pretty standred for cm 1 well too many verses get out... include new updated dmc and ff though most mods approving most the upgrade for them including cm1 so again go with others and cm1 should stay as has proven for many years to be cm1 were still waiting mods to say otherwise most agree here cm1 should stay

This is how I'm betting Super_Nova would downgrade all

 

[Addipuss]

This is how I'm betting Super_Nova would downgrade all

HAHAHAA Yes.... oh that so perfect... as i said before cm1 is going be kept... because if if being low 1a is req of cm1 which seem be another issue of it as stated seem standrred low 1a then again all verses would downgrounded and lose cm1 god of war. been there for such long time... even though only 5d dmc get upgradeds and having cm1 and mods approved of it.. and so is ff but as said before cm1 will be kept.. but even if downground going happen going turn around and get debunk and then go back to having cm1 wont be surprise at all did the mods approved of cm1 before.. even after the changes were made of cm because used be diffient and now just independent cm 1 added and approved even the changes so why would change now? cm1 has been with honkai impact and hsr for years.. and even new changes its remained and even still approved by others new cm been in affect months now was still did not change the hsr or honkai impact from having cm1 so so unlikely its going to change... i hope more mods come or maybe mods just ignoring it because its ofc its wrong so no need to debate it afterall mods debating still other forms heck even fourms releted to hsr and honkai impact they prob just tire of these type its like other guy debunk honkai impact and hsr to 11d.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I kinda forgot to respond to this:

HAHAHAA Yes.... oh that so perfect... as i said before cm1 is going be kept... because if if being low 1a is req of cm1 which seem be another issue of it as stated seem standrred low 1a then again all verses would downgrounded and lose cm1 god of war. been there for such long time... even though only 5d dmc get upgradeds and having cm1 and mods approved of it.. and so is ff but as said before cm1 will be kept.. but even if downground going happen going turn around and get debunk and then go back to having cm1 wont be surprise at all did the mods approved of cm1 before.. even after the changes were made of cm because used be diffient and now just independent cm 1 added and approved even the changes so why would change now? cm1 has been with honkai impact and hsr for years.. and even new changes its remained and even still approved by others new cm been in affect months now was still did not change the hsr or honkai impact from having cm1 so so unlikely its going to change... i hope more mods come or maybe mods just ignoring it because its ofc its wrong so no need to debate it afterall mods debating still other forms heck even fourms releted to hsr and honkai impact they prob just tire of these type its like other guy debunk honkai impact and hsr to 11d.

If you think the CRT is so bad that mods should ignore it, how about you start pointing out why it is rather than just whining because you want your verse to remain wanked.

Also I don’t know why you’re bringing up Low 1-A as of that has anything to do with my contentions. You seem to be confused just like half of the people in this thread even after I already explained in detail how you can have CM1 below Low 1-A.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I agree with the removal

 

[SuperNova55555]

I agree with the removal

Berny in her amnesia arc. You already agreed like 5 pages ago

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Berny in her amnesia arc. You already agreed like 5 pages ago

I'm re-stating my vote because the arguments against the OP are dogwater.

 

[Unqver]

Well I’m not vying for Type 4 so it’s sort of irrelevant. Also, this isn’t what Vietthai is implying. Rather, the Imaginary Tree exists as it’s own construct, but we can have ideas of it and conceptions of it (thoughts in our mind)—not that the Tree itself is a mental concept.

Other points still stands. It is a literal concept itself.

Its because time works like a spatial dimension lel.

It literally says time abides to certain rules and that does not apply in Imaginary Space

But also, space and time aren’t generally assumed to be physical in the same manner as matter, so some exotic forms of Space-Time existing within Imaginary Space leaves no problems here.

Imaginary Space does not have space nor time. Did you read the page?

I’ve already laid out my issues with how reductive this definition is, because it doesn’t accurately reflect what a universal is (linking it for the 10 billionth time). Anyhow, being unaffected isn’t a necessity otherwise it’d be Low 1-A.

Complain to Ultima. This is definition given by the site, I did not make it up. What does Low 1-A have to do with any of this?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Other points still stands. It is a literal concept itself.

Sigh.

Imaginary Tree is a concept as a nominal idea in your mind and not a concept as the actual construct in the world. This is very basic language stuff mannn.

When I say “I’m struggling to comprehend some concepts of math”, am I referring to a real abstracta? No lmao.

It literally says time abides to certain rules and that does not apply in Imaginary Space

“outside our world” Can you tell me what “outside” refers to here in this context? It surely can’t be the Imaginary Space that separates worlds and is stated to have its time work similarly to a spatial dimension, can it?

Imaginary Space does not have space nor time. Did you read the page?

Scan: You can move in time there.

You: Time doesn’t exist there

Complain to Ultima. This is definition given by the site, I did not make it up. What does Low 1-A have to do with any of this?

1) Ultima has stated multiple times in the site that the definition of CM1 is the universal I linked

2) This is in the CM page for CM1:

…For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness"...

^ This is the exact definition of the universal I linked

3) I’m stating that being “unaffected” is not something that matters for CM. But in the case that you are, then it’d likely be Low 1-A.

 

[Unqver]

Sigh.

Imaginary Tree is a concept as a nominal idea in your mind and not a concept as the actual construct in the world. This is very basic language stuff mannn.

When I say “I’m struggling to comprehend some concepts of math”, am I referring to a real abstracta? No lmao.

It is a conceptual domain nonetheless. Many scans on the hoyoverse cosmology page already establishes it. It makes Imaginary space an abstract concept, I can understand english very well

“outside our world” Can you tell me what “outside” refers to here in this context? It surely can’t be the Imaginary Space that separates worlds

Simple, outside of reality. Meaning it is Imaginary Tree therefore also is the Imaginary Tree.

and is stated to have its time work similarly to a spatial dimension, can it?

You can walk in time as a spatial dimension but it is not said time is an actual spatial dimension.

Scan: You can move in time there.

You: Time doesn’t exist there

Did you even read the hoyoverse cosmology page before trying to downgrade stuff you don't even know about?

1) Ultima has stated multiple times in the site that the definition of CM1 is the universal I linked

2) This is in the CM page for CM1:

^ This is the exact definition of the universal I linked

3) I’m stating that being “unaffected” is not something that matters for CM. But in the case that you are, then it’d likely be Low 1-A.

Ok

 

[SuperNova55555]

“Nova, you don’t know what you’re talking about”

“Nova, you haven’t read anything about the verse”

“Nova, you’re clueless and should shut up”

-> Opposition proceeds to completely not comprehend a single point I’ve made in 7 pages

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

“Nova, you don’t know what you’re talking about”

“Nova, you haven’t read anything about the verse”

“Nova, you’re clueless and should shut up”

-> Opposition proceeds to completely not comprehend a single point I’ve made in 7 pages

Just stop wasting your time and summarize your position so far since no one is gonna read 7 pages of yap.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Just stop wasting your time and summarize your position so far since no one is gonna read 7 pages of yap.

Alr have and edited the OP for it as well. But yea, I’ma just ignore them atp it’s js ridiculous

 

[Unqver]

-> Opposition proceeds to completely not comprehend a single point I’ve made in 7 pages

You can't make us comprehend if you're misinterpreting the material

 

[Addipuss]

You can't make us comprehend if you're misinterpreting the material

true

 

[Voidnether]

Calling my arguments against it being "dogwater" is probably the stupidest thing you could say when you don't even play the game, there's zero points that you've made because why the heck would Irontomb destroying the Path of Erudition is an antifeat when it's conceptual destruction, not to mention that was entirely reversed by Cyrene using her Causality Manipulation xd

 

[SuperNova55555]

Calling my arguments against it being "dogwater" is probably the stupidest thing you could say when you don't even play the game, there's zero points that you've made because why the heck would Irontomb destroying the Path of Erudition is an antifeat when it's conceptual destruction, not to mention that was entirely reversed by Cyrene using her Causality Manipulation xd

Translation: “You haven’t read the series so now you must accept any wank I tell you about.”

Also, do you believe all Imaginary Energy is equally CM1?

 

[Voidnether]

Translation: “You haven’t read the series so now you must accept any wank I tell you about.”

Also, do you believe all Imaginary Energy is equally CM1?

NO, THIS GUY USED LORD OF THE MYSTERIES GPT, A CHINESE SPYWARE LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL THAT IS ABLE TO DEBUNK EVERYTHING ON SIGHT!! IT HAS THE CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND ALL FICTION AS IT HAS READ ALL OF THE POSSIBLE FICTIONS = SCD SLOP

I mean why not, all Paths are fundamental anyway and these Paths are Imaginary Energy themselves

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Telomera victims...

 

[SuperNova55555]

I mean why not, all Paths are fundamental anyway and these Paths are Imaginary Energy themselves in the first place

So are those cannons the IPC uses to destroy planets CM1? What about all Pathstriders, they got CM1 too? Why not HSR atoms atp? They naturally interact with Imaginary Energy as well. Also what about when Imaginary stuff leaves Imaginary Space and becomes Real? Is that something CM1 transforming into a physical object?

Do you even realize how ridiculous your position sounds?

 

[Voidnether]

So are those cannons the IPC uses to destroy planets CM1? What about all Pathstriders, they got CM1 too? Why not HSR atoms atp? They naturally interact with Imaginary Energy as well. Also what about when Imaginary stuff leaves Imaginary Space and becomes Real? Is that something CM1 transforming into a physical object?

Do you even realize how ridiculous your position sounds?

hey man that's why you don't mess with the intergalactic irs in my gacha game

this argument is as ridiculous as that if you manipulate said conceptual/informational energy or you name whatever fundamental aspects there is, it doesn't necessarily mean you manipulate them to that level

if you still don't understand how ridiculous that is, imagine being a sequence 0 pathway and manipulating them apparently doesn't mean you manipulate them to the conceptual forms when said pathway is already conceptual

Okay, we will need further evidence that manipulating Imaginary Energy means you must manipulate it to the conceptual level even if said energy is already conceptual. This means if you manipulate a Sequence 0 Pathway, you must manipulate it to the conceptual level even if said Pathway is already conceptual. So much win

 

[SuperNova55555]

hey man that's why you don't mess with the intergalactic irs in my gacha game

this argument is as ridiculous as that if you manipulate said conceptual/informational energy or you name whatever fundamental aspects there is, it doesn't necessarily mean you manipulate them to that level

if you still don't understand how ridiculous that is, imagine being a sequence 0 pathway and manipulating them apparently doesn't mean you manipulate them to the conceptual forms when said pathway is already conceptual

Okay, we will need further evidence that manipulating Imaginary Energy means you must manipulate it to the conceptual level even if said energy is already conceptual. This means if you manipulate a Sequence 0 Pathway, you must manipulate it to the conceptual level even if said Pathway is already conceptual. So much win

What are you even talking about. You literally just said “you manipulate it but also don’t manipulate it”

Also what does LOTM have to do with this lol

 

[Voidnether]

What are you even talking about. You literally just said “you manipulate it but also don’t manipulate it”

Also what does LOTM have to do with this lol

If you manipulate imaginary energy, you must be shown to manipulate it down to the conceptual level even when said energy is already conceptual so this entire premise is nonsensical that you're forced to manipulate it down to the conceptual level when a simple manipulation already meant you're manipulating the conceptual forms of it

What point even is there for you to be required to manipulate it down to the conceptual level, when you know, if you are able to manipulate imaginary energy that's a conceptual energy, you're already manipulating it down to the conceptual level so that's useless bro

I feel like you don't read the imaginary blog

Nevermind about LOTM, they're only type 3 concepts offsite cough cough (sequence 0 pathway being a type 3 concept...)

 

[SuperNova55555]

If you manipulate imaginary energy, you must be shown to manipulate it down to the conceptual level even when said energy is already conceptual so this entire premise is nonsensical that you're forced to manipulate it down to the conceptual level when a simple manipulation already meant you're manipulating the conceptual forms of it

First of all, Imaginary Energy isn’t even conceptual mind you. Secondly, you’re making this distinction up btw. Aeons simply control a certain part of Imaginary Energy (this is stated), there’s no “conceptual level” of it. It’s all the same thing. And neither of these levels, even if hypothetically granted, qualify for CM1.

What point even is there for you to be required to manipulate it down to the conceptual level, when you know, if you are able to manipulate imaginary energy that's a conceptual energy, you're already manipulating it down to the conceptual level so that's useless bro

I genuinely don’t get your point here.

Nevermind about LOTM, they're only type 3 concepts offsite cough cough (sequence 0 pathway being a type 3 concept...)

Every sequence in every Pathway has a corresponding CM1 concept in the Astral World. A Pathway isn’t even really a concept to begin with. It’s a pretty arbitrary structure

 

[Voidnether]

First of all, Imaginary Energy isn’t even conceptual mind you. Secondly, you’re making this distinction up btw. Aeons simply control a certain part of Imaginary Energy (this is stated), there’s no “conceptual level” of it. It’s all the same thing. And neither of these levels, even if hypothetically granted, qualify for CM1.


I genuinely don’t get your point here.


Every sequence in every Pathway has a corresponding CM1 concept in the Astral World. A Pathway isn’t even really a concept to begin with. It’s a pretty arbitrary structure

well a simple read on the imaginary blog tells you that the imaginary governs everything, which includes a conceptual mindscape

how are the aeons controlling a certain part of imaginary = same thing, neither those are cm1 when cm1 requirement is to govern a part of reality and that's it, like do I have to quote it

yeah but according to your logic, you won't get cm1 unless you're manipulating the sequence down to the conceptual level, when the sequence itself is already conceptual so you know how this just doesn't make sense at all